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Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Kama on May 07, 2005, 10:12:05 AM

Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Kama on May 07, 2005, 10:12:05 AM
Why is it "welcomed" and not "welcame"?

hopefully,

Kama
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 07, 2005, 11:08:59 AM
My first thought was that it was formed from well + come (past participle of come), so it wouldn't make sense to take a past participle and form a past tense from it--past tenses are formed from infinitives, not participles.

But then I actually looked it up in the OED, and it looks like I was wrong: it comes from will + cuma (meaning "comer" or "guest"). But because of the influence of the Old French bien venu, meaning "well come," we came to see will as well and cuma as come, the imperative or infinitive form of the verb.

So anyway, because it's a noun that turned into a verb, it's conjugated as a weak verb (-ed ending) instead of a strong verb (verbal ablaut).
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 16, 2010, 10:23:42 PM
I have another question for The Expert.  A friend showed me this quote, but doesn't know where it originated, and I can't figure it out either:

"English doesn't just borrow words from other languages. It follows them down dark alleys, hits them over the head with old beer bottles, and rummages through their pockets for loose grammar."

Lovely quote, though.  Whoever can name the originator ought to sig it.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 17, 2010, 12:06:46 AM
It's a paraphrase. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nicoll#.22The_Purity_of_the_English_Language.22)
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 17, 2010, 12:20:05 AM
Thanks Rivka.  It was definitely worth reviving a five year old, two-post thread so that you could snatch the title of Expert from Jonathon.

It was a long time in coming, but certainly well-deserved.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 17, 2010, 01:34:57 AM
Wow, you're in a mood.

I sort of knew the quote, and I knew it was a paraphrase, so I was able to find it. Was I supposed to wait for Jonathon to do so? Terribly sorry. In that case, perhaps you ought not to have said "whoever".
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on May 17, 2010, 01:47:58 AM
I think she was congratulating you.  
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on May 17, 2010, 01:51:24 AM
From the wikipedia entry:
Quote
Amateur linguists Jeremy Smith,  Richard Lederer,  and Anu Garg have also referenced Nicoll's quote.

Funny, I thought it sounded like something Richard Lederer would say. He drives me nuts, by the way. When I was 15 I thought he was the coolest person alive.  Recently I looked at one of his books and I was like "what is this nonsense?" It was one of his later books so he spent most of it going on about what a hectic life poor authors on book tours lead.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 17, 2010, 02:09:22 AM
Quote
I think she was congratulating you.
 :unsure: I was.  I really was.  I didn't intend any snark, honest.  It's just that the thread was titled "Dear Expert" so I figured that whomever answered got to be the expert.

I'm sorry if I caused any offense.  I sincerely didn't mean to offend. :blush:

Now I feel bad. :cry:  
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on May 17, 2010, 04:34:24 AM
Quote
Now I feel bad.

Send me $20.  Charity will make you feel better.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on May 17, 2010, 06:54:32 AM
Quote
Quote
Now I feel bad.

Send me $20.  Charity will make you feel better.
And after that, send me $30, because you can't be sure there are any diminishing returns on this method.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 17, 2010, 06:58:58 AM
If you don't intend passive-aggressive snark, you might want to avoid words like "snatch".
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 17, 2010, 07:45:50 AM
Quote
Thanks Rivka.  It was definitely worth reviving a five year old, two-post thread so that you could snatch the title of Expert from Jonathon.

It was a long time in coming, but certainly well-deserved.
I'm Neutros the Radioactive Dragon and I endorse this snarky message.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 17, 2010, 07:46:26 AM
Quote
If you don't intend passive-aggressive snark, you might want to avoid words like "snatch".
I try not to use that word in mixed company.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 17, 2010, 08:08:59 AM
Quote
If you don't intend passive-aggressive snark, you might want to avoid words like "snatch".
I'll remember that, Rivka.  Please believe me that I only meant it as praise.  "Seize" the title?  Would that be better?  "Achieve" maybe?

I honestly didn't intend it to be offensive at all.  Again, I apologise for offense given.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 17, 2010, 11:21:13 AM
It's still really hard for me to see how you could possibly NOT have meant that as snark.

Seriously, why was anything past "thanks" necessary?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on May 17, 2010, 12:00:45 PM
I doubt it was meant as snark. I didn't read it that way at first and was stunned by your response. After a few rereadings, I figured out what snarkiness you saw, but I wondered if you or I had misread the first time. I do see how "snatch" carries condescending and negative connotations, but I suspect what Tante was going for was humor, not snark. I read it in a Vicky Aimes voice. Actually, a lot of Tante's recent posts have been coming out in Vicky's voice in my head lately.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 17, 2010, 12:14:36 PM
I thought it was good snark directed at Jonathon.

*zing!*
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 17, 2010, 12:28:10 PM
Thanks, Rivka, for identifying the source of the quote.  I'm sorry my words offended you.  I intended no offense, and was unaware of how the words, which felt innocent and congratulatory when I typed them, would sound snarky and nasty when read.  I'll try to be more careful in the future.

My apologies.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on May 17, 2010, 01:42:20 PM
I can't help but :lol: at the exchange.

It reminds me so much of my own forum experiences.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 17, 2010, 01:58:03 PM
What do you mean by that?  :pirate:  
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on May 17, 2010, 02:02:23 PM
I have been on both sides of that misunderstanding coin.

Sometimes I try to be friendly and it comes across wrong, and sometimes I've picked fights over harmless comments that I misinterpreted.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on May 17, 2010, 04:30:36 PM
Quote
It's still really hard for me to see how you could possibly NOT have meant that as snark.

Seriously, why was anything past "thanks" necessary?
Because it was over-the-top for the funny?

I'm with Ruth, it doesn't read the least bit snarky to me.  I'd think it was a regional thing, but opinions don't seem to be lining up with regions, so that can't be it.  
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on May 17, 2010, 05:05:23 PM
I agree with Ruth. I read it as funny and cute.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on May 17, 2010, 08:38:30 PM
I read it as over-the-top cute, but then again, the way I read something on a forum doesn't mean beans.

It would be interesting if there was a way to mark text so that it was imprinted with how the writer was feeling and upon reading it, some sort of signal could be sent to the brain via the mouse or some other apparatus that would make the reader feel exactly the feelings of the writer.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 17, 2010, 08:44:52 PM
*shudder*
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 18, 2010, 03:14:18 AM
Quote
I can't help but :lol: at the exchange.

It reminds me so much of my own forum experiences.
I'm not at all amused by it.  I find the whole thing upsetting.  I wish there was some way I could re-do it or undo it.  Instead, everyone is watching and commenting on Rivka's hurt feelings and my embarrassment.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on May 18, 2010, 06:33:33 AM
I know.  It's like no one even notices how hawt I am!

What's up with that?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 18, 2010, 07:51:47 AM
Oh dear, Scott. Are you ill? Feverish, I gather?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 18, 2010, 07:58:28 AM
Recently I got caught, apparently, in a crusade against the misuse of the the word ironic. Not wanting to debate semantics, especially without reference materials at hand, I just rolled over.

But it irked me, as I was pretty sure I'd used it in the correct manner.

I had described a situation as ironic that an old tormentor from high school had turned out recently to be an ally and supporter for me.

"It's kind of ironic that she and I are friends now."

I was suddenly subject to a tirade about the misuse of irony that had been discussed with another of my co-converser's friends, and that I was patently wrong in its use.

What the ...?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 18, 2010, 09:04:30 AM
So... you're all quite, then.

I was using it incorrectly...?

*properly chastised*
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 18, 2010, 09:08:07 AM
I find this ironic as well, though I'm probably misusing the term.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on May 18, 2010, 09:12:14 AM
You were within the dictionary definition of the word, which includes an outcome that is unexpected or the opposite of what would be expected.

I suspect your antangonist wants the use of the word irony to be limited to the more restricted definition of using words to convey the opposite of their literal meaning.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 18, 2010, 09:18:45 AM
That's what I think as well. Thanks!
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2010, 09:20:39 AM
Yeah, I think some people are just hypersensitive to perceived misuse of the word "irony".
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on May 18, 2010, 09:47:45 AM
Quote
Oh dear, Scott. Are you ill? Feverish, I gather?
No,no-- I'm Fine.

 
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2010, 10:03:29 AM
*backs away slowly*
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 18, 2010, 10:56:44 AM
Quote
Yeah, I think some people are just hypersensitive to perceived misuse of the word "irony".
Which is just a tad . . .

No, I won't do it.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2010, 11:12:01 AM
Quote
Which is just a tad . . .

 
. . . like rain on your wedding day? Why, yes. Yes it is.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 18, 2010, 12:03:18 PM
:lol:  
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 21, 2010, 07:59:46 AM
Non English Question here:

In Japanese, what is the literal translation of "watashi-wa" and what are the kanji for it?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: fugu13 on May 21, 2010, 09:08:18 AM
??

A way of saying "I..." when speaking fairly formally (keigo). Used by girls a lot more than guys. As a non-Japanese guy, you probably don't ever want to use this unless you're very unambiguously in a formal situation (edit: because if you use it in the wrong situation, you'll sound like a girl, and Japanese people think that's hilarious).
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on May 21, 2010, 09:23:48 AM
Is there anything fugu doesn't know?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 21, 2010, 09:43:41 AM
Ah. This makes perfect sense now. Thanks.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 21, 2010, 10:45:16 AM
Quote
Is there anything fugu doesn't know?
Nope.  He's our Expert du Jour.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on May 23, 2010, 04:33:36 PM
OK, for whichever experts are about:

How wold you explain this grammar pattern to second language learners?

Rarely does a house constructed using mostly recyclable materials cause environmental problems

How would you explain that rarely/seldom does.... verb pattern? It's straight out of their infernal textbook, but the infernal textbook is in Chinese and I'm having a hard time thinking of other examples.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on May 23, 2010, 05:15:22 PM
I think it's a Yoda-esque construction that doesn't strike us natives as Yoda-esque because it is so particularly common.

"Often," "never," etc. would work well in place of "rarely" too.  Something to do with frequency makes it okay.

However, "Sloppily does the handyman construct his cabinets" sounds like Yoda.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on May 23, 2010, 06:14:07 PM
It also only sounds non Yoda-esque when the subject includes a descriptive phrase.  

"Rarely does Jane ride the bus" sounds odd.  "Rarely does a woman who owns a flashy sports car ride the bus" doesn't.  
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on May 23, 2010, 06:33:40 PM
I don't think any of those sound like Yoda, they just sound like slightly outmoded English.

What's the rule behind it though? That's what I need to explain to the students.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on May 23, 2010, 06:42:50 PM
I think "Jane rarely rides the bus" sounds best.

But if you need to use "does," your construction sounds better than "Jane does ride the bus rarely" or "Jane does rarely ride the bus."
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 23, 2010, 07:12:24 PM
It's called subject-auxiliary inversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject-auxiliary_inversion), and among other things it occurs when you have a restrictive adverb at the beginning of the clause.  
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on May 23, 2010, 07:37:44 PM
Thanks, Jonathon! I think it'll make sense if I explain it to them as another case similar to the yes-no questions. They already understand that.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 08, 2010, 07:37:30 PM
Why don't we say usefuler? I just taught my class about comparatives and superlatives and gave them the standard rule of 1 or 2 syllables taking -er and -est and 3 or more syllables taking more or most. Their textbook told them that and told them that some words are irregular like good,bad and far. That's all the information they gave them and then one of their practice words was useful. I was afraid of it so I didn't use it as an exercise in class, but I'm looking over their homework and most of them got it right anyway: more useful.

But I can't find an explanation anywhere - why don't we say usefuler? The other words I could think of that end in -ful are bashful and fretful and I think those are both irregular like useful. Is that the rule, then? Words that end in -ful? So why didn't our textbook tell them that?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 08, 2010, 07:53:56 PM
The OED says,

Quote
In mod.Eng. the comparatives in -er are almost restricted to adjs. of one or two syllables; longer adjs., and also disyllables containing any suffix other than -y or -ly, having the periphrastic comparison by means of the adv. more.

So yes, it does appear to be the suffix that's blocking the addition of -er (but apparently almost any other suffix will too). I don't know why your textbook doesn't say that, except that language is so complex that it's impossible to capture all the important rules that govern its use in one textbook. I guess that rule just didn't make the cut.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on June 08, 2010, 08:26:40 PM
It would be way easier to next time simply have your students born in America.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on June 08, 2010, 08:29:04 PM
I had to look up two of those words just to understand that quote. Yes. I betray my ignorance, I know, but... wow.

I need ice cream now.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 08, 2010, 08:40:39 PM
I'm guessing periphrastic was one, but what was the other?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 08, 2010, 09:26:56 PM
I don't mind the textbook not covering that particular exception, but then don't use it as one of their exercises!

And this textbook is even written by a native speaker.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 08, 2010, 09:27:15 PM
Quote
I'm guessing periphrastic was one, but what was the other?
Perhaps disyllable? I looked that one up (although I thought I knew what it might be), and the other.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 08, 2010, 09:43:10 PM
Yeah, I guess the meaning of disyllable isn't necessarily obvious, even though it looks like it should be.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on June 08, 2010, 10:20:05 PM
Quote
Quote
I'm guessing periphrastic was one, but what was the other?
Perhaps disyllable? I looked that one up (although I thought I knew what it might be), and the other.
Ding, ding, ding!
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 08, 2010, 11:52:18 PM
On a random note, while researching this question my first thought was to google the word "usefuler." All of the results were non-helpful uses of the word on blogs and forums, except for one, which was a linguistics article that addressed the entire subject. It was written by my linguistics professor Dr. Elzinga. How often does googling a random question lead you straight to an answer by someone you're already facebook friends with?
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on June 09, 2010, 05:45:52 AM
More and more often.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 09, 2010, 08:10:09 AM
Hmmm. Curiouser and curiouser.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 09, 2010, 09:28:25 AM
That's funny. Before I found the answer in the OED, I was thinking he'd be the perfect person to ask about that.
Title: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on June 10, 2010, 04:13:55 PM
The narrow definition of irony became common knowledge due to the song by Alanis Morrisette, but I only knew it because of a line in "Reality Bites".  :hangs head in shame:

I don't buy that Morrisette was striving for meta-irony in her song.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 13, 2010, 06:44:35 PM
How common is the spelling technic vs. technique? I've only seen it twice - once on one of my piano books I learned from as a teenager. I thought it was a horrid example of anglophones' lack of spelling ability, but then looked it up to be surprised that it was a legitimate variation. I just saw if for the second time on a friend's facebook page for some education enterprise called "Learning Technics." (Part of my rancor is boiling right now at the claims they're making about learning, but I might be able to stay cool enough to ask about their theoretical backing to maybe be convinced of their legitimacy) It really rubs me the wrong way; like, "why should you think that people would come to you as education experts when you're using such an infuriating spelling?" But maybe that's totally irrational of me. Is there a marked difference in usage as far as anyone knows?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 13, 2010, 07:10:45 PM
I don't recall ever seeing that before. The OED says this about technic (which it says is pronounced /'tɛknɪk/, not /tɛk'nik/ so it's not simply an alternate spelling of technique):
Quote
2. Chiefly U.S.

a. Technical details or methods collectively; the formal or practical aspect of an art, science, or subject; (also) practical skill in the application of this. Now rare.
Largely superseded by technique.

b. A technical method; a scientific procedure.
Largely superseded by technique.

So I guess that answers your question: it's not a weird spelling but a slightly different word that has mostly been replaced by technique.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 13, 2010, 11:38:09 PM
So if they insist on pronouncing it the same as technique and treat it as an identical word am I justified in thinking them slight imbeciles who don't really read much?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 14, 2010, 09:28:44 AM
Judging by the number of people on the forums who have admitted to mispronouncing words because they read them and had never heard them (or had never connected the written and spoken forums), I'm going to suggest that the issue isn't necessarily a lack of reading. But I'd probably find it irksome too.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 20, 2010, 03:26:25 AM
I like this expert's answer to how to pluralize octopus (http://holykaw.alltop.com/octopuses-or-octopi-how-to-pluralize-octopus). It gives me hope for the dear-to-my-heart syllabuses.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on July 20, 2010, 06:26:57 AM
That's great.

She needs to keep her hands down, though.  This ain't no kung-fu movie.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on July 20, 2010, 06:45:35 AM
Really?  I liked the hands.  They seemed charming to me.  Or maybe she was just charming, and that charm spilled over onto her hands.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 20, 2010, 12:38:01 PM
Really?  I liked the hands.  They seemed charming to me.
Agreed. But speaking with one's hands is a common Jewish (and bi-coastal) trait; not so much among American Midwesterners. Which is why it looks normal to us, and not to Scott.

Or else Scott's just being weird again.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on July 20, 2010, 02:12:20 PM
What do American Midwesterners do with their hands whilst talking?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 20, 2010, 03:47:32 PM
Make hot dish.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 20, 2010, 05:14:04 PM
Emergency question!

If anyone can answer this by 11:00 my time (9:00pm in US Mountain time) it will be of fantastic help.

The students just took a test where the correct answer is an inverted form of the subjunctive (I don't even know if I'm identifying that correctly) and I need to explain why that answer was correct.

The sentence was "The business can help anyone - ________ the manager of a small company or a dentist working in a private practice." The choices include "he is," "if he," and something else, and the correct answer, "be he."

How on earth do I explain why we use that? I understand why we'd use the subjunctive there, but what's the rationale behind inversion like that? I've only really ever heard it used often in "be that as it may," as well as similar constructions as the question, "be he," "be it," etc.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: fugu13 on July 20, 2010, 05:32:31 PM
The subjunctive indicates the hypothetical/possible (note: I know you know this, it just leads into the answer); the first doesn't, so we don't use that, and the second lacks a verb, so we don't use that. The inversion is because it flows better, and because the main alternative ("if he be") would suggest a constraint rather than an emphasis, as would leaving the subjunctive out entirely.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 20, 2010, 07:10:37 PM
I'm not really sure how to give a why beyond "that's just the way it is." The subjunctive in English only occurs in subordinate clauses or in main clauses with the subject and auxiliary inverted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_subjunctive#Construction_by_inversion). I'm guessing it's a relic from Old English times when word order wasn't as fixed and topicalization was more abundant.

I'd guess you've also heard constructions like "Had I known . . ." and so forth.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: fugu13 on July 20, 2010, 08:03:26 PM
Ah, I misunderstood the question, I think. I agree with Jonathon's "because". ;)

More seriously, it emphasizes the verb, which is especially important in subjunctive. And it sounds cooler (a very important aspect of linguistic development, especially when the linguistic developers are dramatic people).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on July 20, 2010, 09:03:09 PM
Emergency question!

If anyone can answer this by 11:00 my time (9:00pm in US Mountain time) it will be of fantastic help.

The students just took a test where the correct answer is an inverted form of the subjunctive (I don't even know if I'm identifying that correctly) and I need to explain why that answer was correct.

The sentence was "The business can help anyone - ________ the manager of a small company or a dentist working in a private practice." The choices include "he is," "if he," and something else, and the correct answer, "be he."

How on earth do I explain why we use that? I understand why we'd use the subjunctive there, but what's the rationale behind inversion like that? I've only really ever heard it used often in "be that as it may," as well as similar constructions as the question, "be he," "be it," etc.
It's shorter than Whether he be.

And we use it because we just do.  I thought you guys were here to learn English, so just do it.

That's why I'm not in Asia teaching English.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 20, 2010, 09:18:52 PM
It was another teacher who asked me this, and I started out with "maybe just explain to them that it's a usage they might hear." I then read your (very helpful) replies, dug into it, wrote a little synopsis for her, and gave it to her before class. She then asked another of the teachers how he would teach it (he's the resident grammarian) and he told her - "I'd tell them it was an older usage of English and not to worry about it." :)

Now if we could only talk to the developers of the national exams...
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: fugu13 on July 20, 2010, 10:07:32 PM
It sounds nearly as bad as Japan, where those preparing for university entrance exams (or even high school ones!) must memorize insane points of English grammar (frequently incorrect ones, at that).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on July 21, 2010, 05:03:26 AM
Quote
speaking with one's hands is a common Jewish (and bi-coastal) trait; not so much among American Midwesterners. Which is why it looks normal to us, and not to Scott.

I'm Southern.

I don't mind gesturing in real life, but I find it distracting in videos.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 21, 2010, 05:57:35 AM
The Southerners I know don't seem to speak much with their hands either.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on July 21, 2010, 06:05:03 AM
That's fine.  I just wanted to clear up the misconception that I'm a mid-westerner.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on July 21, 2010, 09:41:51 AM
What kind of Southern are you?  My husband was born and raised in Georgia, and he never talks with his hands.  Then again, he is paralyzed from the hair down. :ninja:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on July 21, 2010, 04:07:14 PM
Oh my goodness, I'm afraid to laugh, and get yet another strike in heaven's logbook.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on July 21, 2010, 04:23:22 PM
Quote
What kind of Southern are you?

Texan and Virginian.  I'm not sure I can legitimately call myself Texan-- I don't have any desire to go back-- but I've lived in the Old Dominion for 20 years now anyway.  It's home.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on July 21, 2010, 04:27:27 PM
You're from Virginia.  Oh dear.  I had no idea.  I wish I had paid attention when my mother warned me about people from Virginia.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on July 21, 2010, 04:36:21 PM
Yep.  You'd never be in this predicament if only you had listened to her.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on July 21, 2010, 09:58:36 PM
The Southerners I know don't seem to speak much with their hands either.

There's a retort in there about the Rebellion; I just haven't found it yet.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 21, 2010, 10:31:36 PM
They speak with their shotguns!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on July 23, 2010, 08:54:59 AM
I grew up mostly in Virginia, but since I was techically born in Maryland I always lorded it over my siblings that I was on the winning side of the Civil War. 

But all my children have been born in Utah and I've lived here pretty much half my life, so I suppose I am a Utahn.  I was thinking the other day of how silly people are who complain about being trapped in Utah.  It was someone's login at the deseret news. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 26, 2010, 12:35:00 PM
Dear Expert,

I was once told in church that the word "abomination" originally meant "a stink" or that the word described something as having an abhorrent smell, rather than the current usage where something is corrupted or a juxtaposition of two things that ought not to be joined.

I can't find anything in the etymology though that discusses smell as factoring into it.  I'd hate to believe in an abominable definition.

Help!
BB
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 26, 2010, 12:50:03 PM
According to the OED, abominate means "to avert an omen" and came to mean "to loathe, abhor, detest". There's nothing in there about stink.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on August 27, 2010, 11:08:43 AM
I like this expert's answer to how to pluralize octopus (http://holykaw.alltop.com/octopuses-or-octopi-how-to-pluralize-octopus). It gives me hope for the dear-to-my-heart syllabuses.
I hate that they make you watch the video to get the the answer.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 28, 2010, 06:31:59 AM
I don't ever like being forced to watch a video in order to get what someone is saying or even what is amusing.  Though I'm usually willing to if it is grammar or linguistics related.  I know a lot of people think it's the best part of the internet, but it just doesn't draw me in.  Kind of like XKCD.  I think it may have to do with the amateurishness of it.  Like, I didn't work too hard on this, so if it sucks, you shouldn't be disappointed.

Not all videos are amateurish.  If there were a thread of videos of highly rehearsed performance art like the dudes on treadmills, I would probably watch those, or best of science principle illustration animations. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 05, 2010, 09:33:38 PM
I promised a friend of mind I'd look up the etymology of the verb "bear" for her, and I'm finding the meanings related to carrying, bringing forth, to give birth to. Is this the same word we use when we talk about bearing testimony in churchspeak? The only other use like that I can think of is bearing witness. Is that a phrase in normal English? And if so, why do we use the word "bear"? Is it implying the bringing forth of the ideas we're speaking?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 05, 2010, 10:32:20 PM
Yes, it's normal English and not just churchspeak. I think you're right on about bringing forth ideas. And apparently it's a fairly old metaphorical use of the verb bear, going back to at least 1300. And if you're interested in the further etymology, it's related to the Latin ferre and Greek pherein, making it related to a whole host of words like infer and metaphor.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 14, 2010, 06:41:15 PM
Is this a word?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/annekemajors/appropriacy.jpg)
I don't think it's a word.

But it makes perfect sense. Is it OK for academic authors to make up words like that if they want to?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on September 14, 2010, 06:53:03 PM
It's a word.  Or at least more than one academic author uses it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 14, 2010, 07:04:23 PM
Is it synonymous with appropriateness, then? Merriam-Webster didn't think it was a word.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on September 14, 2010, 07:15:29 PM
As far as I can tell, yes.  If it's supposed to have some slightly different connotation I don't know what it is.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 14, 2010, 07:24:16 PM
Is this a word?

I guess that depends on what your definition of word is.

Merriam-Webster didn't think it was a word.

Not having an entry for a word isn't the same as not thinking that it's a word. Is it a word that many people use? Apparently not, because it gets 50,000 Google hits compared to 35,000,000 for appropriateness.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 15, 2010, 01:08:42 AM
I think if there's not a nuanced difference in meaning between two words that are the same word except for choice of morpheme, we don't need two of them.

But there goes the prescriptivist devil on my shoulder again.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on September 15, 2010, 07:43:12 AM
I have a prescriptivist imp.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Amilia on September 27, 2010, 04:33:01 PM
Quote
Our artwork has been showcased in many international magazines and newspapers including the Ensign, USA Today, the  New York Times and the Stained Glass Association of America.

Should "the" be capitalized for The New York Times?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 27, 2010, 04:34:56 PM
Traditionally, initial articles in the names of periodicals are neither capitalized nor italicized (though articles in book titles get both—don't ask me why). So it's the New York Times but The Chicago Manual of Style.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on September 27, 2010, 06:40:59 PM
The leading manual on legal citation (which I've mentioned before but will re-mention for convenience), the Blue Book:  A Uniform System of Citation, states in rule 8 that you should capitalize in headings/titles, but defer to the Chicago Manual of Style or Government Printing Office Style Manual when it's not a heading or title.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on September 27, 2010, 06:43:52 PM
I routinely capitalize "Hell."  Are there instances where I shouldn't?

And, should I ever capitalize "Heaven" ?  When—the same rules that apply to "Hell" apply to "Heaven" ?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 27, 2010, 06:57:57 PM
They're both typically lowercased. That's what both Chicago and the LDS Church style guide say, at any rate.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 27, 2010, 08:40:54 PM
Well, The New York Times capitalizes the "The" in their name.  They don't call themselves "New York Times", it's "The New York Times".  It's right there on their masthead (http://www.nytimes.com/).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 27, 2010, 08:51:23 PM
Well, like so many things, this is a stylistic issues, and styles vary.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on September 27, 2010, 09:41:04 PM
I'd go with Chicago but not necessarily the LDS church since we don't believe in heaven and hell, per se.  I've never seen a translation of the Bible where they were capitalized, but again, LDS.

When I was a little girl I had a non LDS bible because they hadn't come out with them yet.  But I only remember the words of Jesus were in red.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 27, 2010, 09:52:32 PM
Did the Romans speak in italics or Times New Roman?  Did the Egyptians speak in Papyrus?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 27, 2010, 10:02:18 PM
I'd go with Chicago but not necessarily the LDS church since we don't believe in heaven and hell, per se.  I've never seen a translation of the Bible where they were capitalized, but again, LDS.

But in this regard they're the same. Also, the LDS Church style guide doesn't capitalize celestial kingdom either, so it's not a matter of what we believe in. And strangely, the LDS edition of the scriptures does not follow Church style at all. For example, Church style capitalizes deity pronouns and a host of other things that the scriptures don't.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 27, 2010, 10:03:02 PM
Did the Romans speak in italics or Times New Roman?  Did the Egyptians speak in Papyrus?

I'm not going to dignify that with an answer. :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 27, 2010, 10:10:41 PM
I have a feeling that once Jesse realizes he could have been playing with fonts all this time, he's going to take to it with a vengeance, to catch up.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 27, 2010, 10:28:19 PM
The Romans wrote, at least, in Trajan. As in, they made the font from the actual Roman writing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan%27s_Column) on Trajan's column. So Trajan is totally legit.

Also, I am sorry to hear that Hell is not capitalized. I'll have to have a chat with my students:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/annekemajors/P9270011.jpg)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 27, 2010, 11:07:20 PM
I have a feeling that once Jesse realizes he could have been playing with fonts all this time, he's going to take to it with a vengeance, to catch up.

And I will hold you personally responsible. :pirate:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 27, 2010, 11:08:40 PM
He's a playful guy and I, for one, am delighted by his puckish insouciance.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 28, 2010, 01:09:53 AM
I'm not going to dignify that with an answer. :p
I believe you just did.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Amilia on September 28, 2010, 12:50:01 PM
Traditionally, initial articles in the names of periodicals are neither capitalized nor italicized (though articles in book titles get both—don't ask me why). So it's the New York Times but The Chicago Manual of Style.

Thank you! 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on September 29, 2010, 07:19:27 AM
I think if there's not a nuanced difference in meaning between two words that are the same word except for choice of morpheme, we don't need two of them.

But there goes the prescriptivist devil on my shoulder again.
Sure, you don't need them. 

But there are tons of stuff in our language that we don't need.  And we're missing some stuff that would be really handy.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 29, 2010, 09:11:08 AM
What I want to know is, what does it hurt having two different words for the same thing (assuming, of course, that they are exactly the same)?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 29, 2010, 10:17:58 AM
It makes Porter twitch.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 29, 2010, 10:25:30 AM
And Annie, apparently.

But that's their problem, isn't it? ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 29, 2010, 11:13:20 AM
Sure. I was just answering your question.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 29, 2010, 11:14:32 AM
In a fashion. <_<
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on September 29, 2010, 08:26:33 PM
I hate how we have separate words for book and library. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 30, 2010, 09:52:11 AM
Really? Why shouldn't we?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on September 30, 2010, 09:58:45 AM
I wholly support a large, gnarly language.  The larger the language, the better, IMO.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on September 30, 2010, 10:11:41 AM
I'm being cheeky.  The two words are inflections of the same root, to write, in Arabic.  I'm just pointing out we sometimes think of words as being separate when they could be collapsed into one lexical cluster.  And if we wanted to get excited about eradicating redundancy we could really get carried away.  But Arabic has several words meaning horse, so it's not like it's this austere, super efficient language.  
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 30, 2010, 10:27:44 AM
I wholly support a large, gnarly language.  The larger the language, the better, IMO.

Yeah. Personally, I don't understand the objections to having so many words. It's not like anyone's making you use them, but they're there if you want them.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 06, 2010, 09:36:04 AM
Dear Expert,
       Is there anyway we can forever separate the words "can't" and "hardly"?  While it's certainly possible to use those words together correctly, such as, "I can't hardly stand getting free money", the vast majority of people keep using them together in lieu of one or the other.  You can say, "I can't understand economics", or "I hardly understand economics", but if you are trying to express a propensity for not understanding economics you can't say, "I can't hardly understand economics."  Either you are in fact saying you do understand economics, or that you have a complete lack of understanding when it comes to economics, so much so, that you can't even be said to "hardly understand" it, which I suppose in rare cases might be what you actually mean.

Either way, the cost this problem is exacting on my sanity is just too high, what can be done?!

Sincerely,
A reader who can't hardly deal with this.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 06, 2010, 10:17:07 AM
While it's certainly possible to use those words together correctly, such as, "I can't hardly stand getting free money"
I am unconvinced this is correct.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2010, 11:01:00 AM
Yeah, I'm not seeing how "I can't hardly stand getting free money" is correct while "I can't hardly understand economics" isn't. Strictly speaking, they're both a type of double negative.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 06, 2010, 11:14:40 AM
Technically speaking if I "I can't hardly stand getting free money." Then I can hardly stand getting free money right?, or at least it's a level of difficulty that isn't measured by the word, "hardly."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2010, 11:33:42 AM
Technically speaking if I "I can't hardly stand getting free money." Then I can hardly stand getting free money right?

Nope. You just equated a positive statement with a negative one. Under the rules of standard English, this doesn't work.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Nighthawk on October 06, 2010, 12:25:55 PM
Nope. You just equated a positive statement with a negative one. Under the rules of standard English, this can't hardly work.

FTFY. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 06, 2010, 12:33:23 PM
Is there anyway we can forever separate the words "can't" and "hardly"?

No, I'm afraid we can't.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2010, 01:01:08 PM
Nope. You just equated a positive statement with a negative one. Under the rules of standard English, this can't hardly work.

FTFY. ;)

I'll fix you.  :pirate:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 06, 2010, 07:41:47 PM
I believe his wife already took care of that for you.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 06, 2010, 08:40:14 PM
I believe his wife already took care of that for you.
Blammo!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on October 07, 2010, 06:17:14 AM
I believe his wife already took care of that for you.
Blammo!

I'm confused. The only people you could have meant by "his" are Jonathon and Nighthawk (and possibly BlackBlade). Of the three, I'm the only wife who could have taken care of anything in the thread, but I didn't. What?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 07, 2010, 07:59:48 AM
I assume she was talking about Nighthawk, who frequently mentions swift disciplinary action from his wife when he steps out of line.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 07, 2010, 08:37:41 AM
Precisely. His usual comments go something like, "I don't remember anything after that."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Nighthawk on October 13, 2010, 12:59:38 PM
Dear Expert: Why is Wednesday not pronounced like it is spelled?

I might be able to accept losing a letter, but an entire syllable?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 13, 2010, 01:14:56 PM
Doesn't Wednesday come from the Norse days of the week and hence Odin's day?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 13, 2010, 01:38:53 PM
It's not just Norse per se, but a broader Germanic mythology. In Old English the form was something like Wodin, but in Norse it was Odin.

As for why it's not pronounced like it's spelled, I believe it's because spelling was more or less standardized with the advent of printing, but pronunciation continued to change. Common words are especially prone to changes in pronunciation. The second syllable in Wednesday is unstressed, so it's easy to delete the vowel and turn the n into a syllabic consonant. Once that happened, there was a large cluster of consonants all pronounced with the tip of the tongue against the back of the teeth or the bony ridge just behind them, and when consonants cluster like that, some of them tend to get deleted. Strictly speaking, it's not a whole syllable that got deleted, but the end of the first syllable and the middle of the second.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 13, 2010, 01:50:35 PM
Jon Boy: Wasn't it Norse first before it spread through the Germanic peoples?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 13, 2010, 02:06:01 PM
I'm saying that the Norse are part of the Germanic peoples. Norse mythology is part of Germanic mythology, which actually traces back to Proto-Indo-European mythology along with Greek and Roman and all those others.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 20, 2010, 07:14:36 AM
I'm saying that the Norse are part of the Germanic peoples. Norse mythology is part of Germanic mythology, which actually traces back to Proto-Indo-European mythology along with Greek and Roman and all those others.
Didn't see this, thanks for clarifying.

----

As an aside sometimes when I write out titles in quotation marks I know there are certain words that you do not capitalize.  I'm fairly confident "the" and "or" shouldn't be, but is there a universally accepted rule of thumb for this?  Also, did you ever figured out where the phrase, "Losing money hand over fist originated?"

Just giving you something to do all day. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 20, 2010, 07:33:26 AM
"Hand over fist" is an image that any Boy Scout should recognize. :P ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 20, 2010, 07:43:17 AM
There you go rivka with those sweeping hyperbolic statements.  Clearly not *every* scout recognizes that image.

Kinda disappointed I don't know what image rivka is indicating.  I am also questioning my scouting credentials.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 20, 2010, 07:50:51 AM
*bewildered* Isn't rope climbing a required Scouting skill?

(And yes, the sweeping hyperbole was just for you. :D)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 20, 2010, 07:56:13 AM
Peek-a-tures!

cute ones (http://chadsmithcrossfit.blogspot.com/2010/03/rope-climbing.html)
hauling rope, hand over fist (http://www.crossfiteastside.com/uploaded_images/RopePulls-734420.jpg)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 20, 2010, 08:01:46 AM
Oh I see.  But I don't think that image exactly explains why you can lose money hand over fist.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 20, 2010, 10:14:38 AM
"Hand over fist" = really fast

Applying it to money is not a unique use of the phrase, although it is fairly common. I suspect because it includes the image of someone desperately grasping as the money slips away.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 20, 2010, 10:58:32 AM
As an aside sometimes when I write out titles in quotation marks I know there are certain words that you do not capitalize.  I'm fairly confident "the" and "or" shouldn't be, but is there a universally accepted rule of thumb for this?  Also, did you ever figured out where the phrase, "Losing money hand over fist originated?"

Just giving you something to do all day. ;)

The general rule is to lowercase articles (the, a, an), coordinating conjunctions (and, or, but, yet, so, for, nor), and prepositions, except that you always capitalize the first and last words in the title, regardless of their part of speech.

And it appears that "hand over first" (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hand-over-fist.html) does have origins in hauling rope.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 20, 2010, 11:31:09 AM
Thanks rivka/Jon Boy.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 20, 2010, 05:19:25 PM
What I want to know is, what does it hurt having two different words for the same thing (assuming, of course, that they are exactly the same)?

It makes Porter twitch.
Um, no.  I was agreeing that we don't need superfluous words, but was gently mocking the idea that they're bad.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 20, 2010, 05:25:27 PM
Huh? Haven't you repeatedly objected to "superfluous" words that "mean the same thing"?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 20, 2010, 05:45:54 PM
As a general rule, I've got no problems with it.  Having purchase and buy in the same language is perfectly OK with me.

What I sometimes object to when there are two words with useful differences between them which are merged into the same meaning.   Somebody told me yesterday that they thought they have "discerning taste" in music.  Because of the context, I asked if they really meant "discriminating taste".  This person was not able to tell me, because to them, the two words meant exactly the same thing.

Some more example (of similar word pairs, not necessarily of ones that I personally care about) are imply/infer and comprise/compose.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 20, 2010, 05:50:56 PM
In that case, I completely (and emphatically) agree!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 20, 2010, 05:51:45 PM
*high five*
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 25, 2010, 07:04:31 AM
OK, I hear about this more and more: "Islamist".  Mostly, it seems to me that "Islamist" is a scary way to say "Muslim".  The way I hear it, someone will label a scary boogeyman an "Islamist", like that in itself is supposed to scare me.  Does "Islamist" mean something different than "Muslim"?  I know plenty of Muslims, but I'm not sure that I know any "Islamists", at least no one I would call "Islamist" and, I suspect, no one who would call him or herself one either.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 25, 2010, 09:17:50 AM
Personally, I think it's a way to imply that all Muslims are terrorists or some such.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 25, 2010, 09:22:51 AM
How does it imply that?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 25, 2010, 09:26:58 AM
Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration. But -ist is often used with extreme or negative connotations, I think.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 25, 2010, 09:34:05 AM
There is a word in French, Islamiste, that specifically means someone who practices Islam as a political agenda. (And I'm assuming that's where English got it or vice versa.) So, while a Muslim is someone who follows Islam as a religion, an Islamist is someone who makes Islam their politics. (hence the "-ist," because they're making it an "-ism") I think it's a perfectly legitimate word.

Also, isms in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an ism - he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon: "I don't believe in Beatles - I just believe in me". A good point there. Of course, he was the Walrus. I could be the Walrus - I'd still have to bum rides off of people.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 25, 2010, 09:45:10 AM
*shields eyes from camera while washing myself*
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 25, 2010, 09:47:58 AM
 :huh:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 25, 2010, 10:24:31 AM
Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration. But -ist is often used with extreme or negative connotations, I think.
Sounds like you have a extremist POV towards -ist.  What is it with all these leftist revisionists?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 25, 2010, 11:29:59 AM
I blame the journalists!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 25, 2010, 11:33:01 AM
Those fascists!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 25, 2010, 11:37:25 AM
Not to mentions those odious Dental Hygienists.

::bares teeth::
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 25, 2010, 07:36:06 PM
It makes me crazy just thinking about it.  But I dare not see a psycholoist or a psychiatrist!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on October 25, 2010, 08:25:45 PM
I dunno, dental hygienists are kind of extreme with the masks and metal implements.  And the asking you if you're flossing every day.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on October 26, 2010, 09:28:24 AM
I'm a lyricist. 

Fear me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on November 12, 2010, 08:16:22 AM
Do single quotes like 'this' exist in proper written English?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 12, 2010, 08:29:57 AM
When nested within double quotes.

Also, the rules for American English differ from those for British English.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 12, 2010, 10:02:35 AM
Yup. British English typically uses single quotes where we use double quotes. And certain fields use single quotes for certain purposes, as noted in Chicago:

Quote
In linguistic and phonetic studies a definition is often enclosed in single quotation marks with no intervening punctuation; any following punctuation is placed after the closing quotation mark. (For a similar usage in horticultural writing, see 8.129.)

The gap is narrow between mead ‘a beverage’ and mead ‘a meadow’.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 21, 2010, 04:46:57 AM
Stop me if I've already talked about this here. Do you capitalize hell? Like, in an actual conversation talking about what people believe about who goes there. The internet is giving me all sorts of conflicting advice from various idiots masquerading as experts.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on November 21, 2010, 07:18:21 AM
If you're talking about an actual place, why wouldn't it be a proper noun?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on November 22, 2010, 11:10:31 AM
because it could be an actual place like a bedroom or an actual place like Bed, Bath, and Beyond.  I'm going to hell, the specific location, or Hell the trademarked religious ideological punishing ground.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 22, 2010, 11:40:19 AM
Stop me if I've already talked about this here. Do you capitalize hell? Like, in an actual conversation talking about what people believe about who goes there. The internet is giving me all sorts of conflicting advice from various idiots masquerading as experts.

The Chicago Manual of Style lowercases it because it's considered more of a concept than a physical place. I guess some people capitalize it if they think of it as more of a real place.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Nighthawk on November 22, 2010, 01:27:26 PM
The Chicago Manual of Style lowercases it because it's considered more of a concept than a physical place...

Oh, I beg to differ (http://tinyurl.com/22umdjb)... ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 22, 2010, 01:57:14 PM
 :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 22, 2010, 04:00:14 PM
In my family it always starts a sentence and so is capitalized, cf. "Hell, Margaret!"

Margaret was my grandmother's name. 

Hell is the one swear I still say after all these years because my mom felt her father was actually a better Christian than her mother (the church goer) and so I got this idea when I was about 7 that it was okay to say. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 22, 2010, 04:08:42 PM
I had an Australian mission companion. It taught me that Christians can say just about anything they want to.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 22, 2010, 04:38:20 PM
Don't you think that was more a matter that they'd picked up words from movies they thought were general Americanisms? 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 22, 2010, 05:15:06 PM
These weren't Americanisms. In fact, I started using them because they sounded so cute and commonwealthy and she had to explain to me what they meant so I would stop.

(It was mostly damn and hell, though. Apparently, those just aren't a big deal in Australia)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on November 22, 2010, 09:26:52 PM
In the ward I currently am in, I have heard two different women use three different swear words inside the church building. Both were women I like a great deal. I'd never heard a Mormon swear before this, and certainly not inside a church. It's kinda funny.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 22, 2010, 09:35:32 PM
You've never heard a Mormon swear before? :huh:

Hell, you've heard me swear before. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 22, 2010, 10:03:58 PM
It may make me a hypocrite, but I do try not to swear at church.  Besides when I was 14 and asked the Bishop "how it was hanging" and from the look on his face realized I had said something wrong, and instantly deduced what that meant, which had never occured to me before. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on November 23, 2010, 07:00:45 AM
Okay, I guess I excluded us, since we see all of the best and worst parts of each other. Probably everyone has a few times in their lives in private.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 23, 2010, 09:02:24 AM
I don't swear very often, but I do it so as to punctuate just how annoyed I am.  When I discuss swear words though, or quote somebody who was swearing I don't have any compunctions with saying the words rather than words that let the listener know what words were actually used.  No darn for damn so to speak.

But I should add that if I am in the company of somebody who would be uncomfortable were the words actually said, I have been known to use darn for damn.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 23, 2010, 09:06:20 AM
I actually do say "jeepers", when circumstances demand.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 23, 2010, 09:20:22 AM
One of the reasons I get frustrated with Quentin Tarantino is that I feel he falls back on swearing way too often.  People are often in awe at his ability to write dialogue, but I get pretty tired with swearing, more swearing, and then word games on swearing just to shake things up.  It's poor writing IMHO.

When I watch a movie though where a character is less than educated and so fills in a lot of blanks with swearing, it doesn't bother me nearly as much.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 23, 2010, 02:49:48 PM
I've never gotten frustrated with Quentin Tarantino since the only work of his I've seen was his supporting role in Desperado. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 23, 2010, 04:01:10 PM
I've never gotten frustrated with Quentin Tarantino since the only work of his I've seen was his supporting role in Desperado. 

which was f-ing terrible.

(OK, just kidding, I don't know any of his stuff.)

I feel a little bad all the sudden that I never swear when speaking but I have little problem writing swear words. (not the really bad ones, though I've been known to do it.) That's a new brand of internet hypocrisy, I suppose.

In speaking, I really enjoy using the weirdest euphemisms I can come up with. My favorite is "Sun River bridge!"
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 24, 2010, 10:02:45 AM
My favorite is "flanken" (pronounced with an "ah" --"FLAHNK-en"), which really just means beef short ribs, but which sounds delightfully rude.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on December 02, 2010, 08:21:16 AM
The only place I swear is in my fiction.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on January 28, 2011, 04:39:24 PM
So there probably isn't an established rule for this, but just in case.  When somebody on a forum or writing a paper for example creates a URL link in the text of a sentence, like this, (http://www.google.com) is it proper to include punctuation marks in the code, or should they be on the outside and not coded, like this (http://www.google.com)?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on January 28, 2011, 04:53:06 PM
The latter.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 28, 2011, 06:41:00 PM
I do the latter, but I don't think it really matters.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 30, 2011, 12:16:24 AM
I do the latter, but I don't think it really matters.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on January 30, 2011, 08:06:50 AM
The legal writing style manuals are quite clear on this point, actually.  Just imagine:

Quote
In the case of Galactic, LLC v. Saxon, Inc., it was alleged …

(or)

Quote
In the case of Galactic, LLC v. Saxon, Inc., it was alleged …




That second comma isn't part of the case name, so it shouldn't get the emphasis.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 30, 2011, 11:35:27 AM
Style manuals can be quite clear on points that do not matter. And they often change their position on those points over the years. Chicago 14th ed. said you should style punctuation to match the preceding text. The 15th edition reversed that and said that punctuation should only match the styling of the text if it belonged to it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on June 06, 2011, 02:36:23 PM
So sometimes I'll lay in bed and think about words, and wonder if Jonathon knows anything about this or that.

A few mornings ago I was think about the word vest. Now a vest is an article of clothing, and in fact the word vestments means clothing in general. A person who wears clothing associated with the opposite gender is a transvestite. But there there is also the verb to invest, or one's investments, which of course means something entirely different. Is there some point in history where clothing and financial holdings were more closely associated?

edit: Perhaps a time where buying clothing for others indicated that they now would serve your purposes?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 06, 2011, 05:37:51 PM
The stripper divested herself of her assets.


Works for me!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 07, 2011, 12:28:10 PM
I could've sworn that I talked about invest in the Random Etymology thread at some point, but I can't find it. Anyway, the etymology is a little confusing, not just because there's been a fair amount of semantic drift in English, but because the word invest has been borrowed from multiple sources; originally it came from Latin and meant "to clothe" and later took on more figurative senses like "to clothe with attributes" and "to establish in an office". The financial sense probably came from Italian, as Etymonline (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=invest) says: "The meaning 'use money to produce profit' first attested 1610s in connection with the East Indies trade, and is probably a borrowing of It[alian]. investire (13c.) from the same L[atin]. root, via the notion of giving one's capital a new form".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on June 07, 2011, 01:01:19 PM
Interesting, I'd thought about that possible connection, but I wasn't certain about it. Thanks Jonothan. I hope you don't mind my asking this stuff, I suppose I could just go to the websites you go to, but I kinda like having you explain it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 07, 2011, 01:30:09 PM
I hope you don't mind my asking this stuff. . . .

Not at all! I love this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Icarus on June 09, 2011, 09:51:12 PM
So I just stumbled across a line in my MS and had a 1 AM moment of doubt.

When "springing" as in paying for something that is a borderline luxury, should it be "they sprung for a" or "they sprang for a"?

Googlage suggests the latter.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 09, 2011, 10:02:00 PM
I think this is an area where usage is shifting. The traditional conjugation is that sprang is the simple past while sprung is the past participle, but sprung is encroaching on sprang. I'd stick with sprang to be safe.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Icarus on June 09, 2011, 10:03:42 PM
Thanks :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on July 03, 2011, 07:28:07 AM
Why does "assorted" have two "s's" in it?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 03, 2011, 10:03:31 AM
It's from the French à + sort. In French a single letter s between vowels is voiced, but this one should be voiceless as it is in the root word, so they wrote it with two s's.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on July 03, 2011, 10:20:54 AM
Aren't the French the ones who messed up the spelling of "colonel"?  Not for nothing, the French have really messed up spelling.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 03, 2011, 10:28:45 AM
Nope, that was the English. It was respelled to better reflect its Italian etymology.

And I'd have to say that French spelling is more consistent and systematic than English spelling.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on July 22, 2011, 02:50:20 PM
For a forum thread title, is it bad grammar to capitalize the first letters like you would a book title? I noticed that many posters, such as myself capitalize, (with the exception of the journalist thread I just created because that was when I noticed it) but that you don't Jonathon. Is there an established rule on this point?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on July 22, 2011, 05:46:23 PM
Why would there need to be an established rule?

And if somebody has tried to establish one, they can stick it in their ear!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 23, 2011, 07:52:10 PM
Why would there need to be an established rule?

And if somebody has tried to establish one, they can stick it in their ear!
I'm Jonathon, and I support this message.

I don't think it matters at all. And some people would agree that it doesn't matter but would still recommend consistency. I don't think I'm even consistent.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on July 24, 2011, 09:49:37 AM
For the Sake of searchability, I think titles should never begin with "The" and should probably begin with a memorable keyword.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on July 25, 2011, 11:11:41 AM
*resists urge to edit thread titles to confounde Jess(i?)e.*
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on July 25, 2011, 11:29:49 AM
Jesse.

Jessie is the spelling for girls. Unless you're Rick Springfield who, apparently, was confused about the gendered spellings of the name and also the appropriateness of using the word "moot" in pop lyrics just because it rhymes with "cute."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on July 25, 2011, 11:58:39 AM
Given that I couldn't remember which it was, I figured the safer router was to to acknowledge/apologize for my ignorance rather than have a 50% of offending by simply getting it wrong.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on July 25, 2011, 08:31:43 PM
I'm not mad at you at all. Just Rick Springfield. Mostly for him creating that song so it could get stuck in my head.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on July 26, 2011, 12:16:56 PM
Instead of saying "no i," I like to instruct people (generally over the phone) that my name is spelt just as it is in the Bible.

A savory moment of confusion and awkwardness often ensues.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 26, 2011, 12:26:13 PM
that my name is spelt just as it is in the Bible.
Which is fairly nonsensical, since you don't actually spell it in Hebrew 99% of the time.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 26, 2011, 12:38:18 PM
Seems pretty sensical to me, since most of the people he'd be saying that to are not Jews and thus would not think of the Hebrew Bible. :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on July 26, 2011, 12:44:54 PM
Generally when I mention the Tolstoy character, for instance, I don't write it Анна Каренина.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 26, 2011, 01:40:22 PM
Seems pretty sensical to me, since most of the people he'd be saying that to are not Jews and thus would not think of the Hebrew Bible. :p
Except he has used it me and Esther. Multiple times.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 26, 2011, 02:04:47 PM
But did you actually think that Jesse was saying that his name is Yishay, spelled יִשַׁי?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 26, 2011, 03:16:25 PM
No. But neither did I glean the meaning he wanted, because I frequently don't know the English spellings/translations of biblical names without looking them up.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 26, 2011, 03:47:12 PM
Fair enough.

And of course, since Jesse talked about the "savory moment of confusion and awkwardness", I think we can safely assume that communicating clearly was not his primary goal. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 26, 2011, 04:10:14 PM
I think we can safely assume that communicating clearly was not his primary goal. ;)
Indubitably.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on July 27, 2011, 08:43:13 AM
The biblical thing sticks for me, though I believe he once told me "like David's dad".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on July 28, 2011, 08:21:34 AM
A savory moment of confusion and awkwardness often ensues.
Trolling IRL.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 14, 2011, 11:37:02 AM
I was just reading a New Yorker article and they used a trema in the word reëlection. I knew about its use in French but until today was utterly unaware that we could use it similarly in English. How common is this?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 01:48:19 PM
As far as I know, the New Yorker is the only place in the entire English-speaking world where you will still find that practice, though apparently it was common once (http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=kjisFLQK8-cC&pg=PT43&dq=dieresis+usage&hl=en&ei=j34AToPCLIr0swPih5CTDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=dieresis%20usage&f=false).

And just so you know, the English word for that diacritical mark is diaeresis.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 14, 2011, 04:21:14 PM
The English word for the mark is trema - it's used in this situation for diaeresis rather than for umlaut.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 14, 2011, 04:31:07 PM
Well, I'm in the English-speaking world, and I use it. But then again, I also use semicolons, so I'm hardly typical.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 04:34:41 PM
I've never heard it called a trema in English, and the OED doesn't even have an entry for it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 14, 2011, 04:52:50 PM
Trema (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trema_%28diacritic%29)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 05:01:15 PM
A poorly sourced Wikipedia article is your proof? :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 14, 2011, 05:02:07 PM
There are enough people calling it that for that to be the name of the wikipedia article.

And you call yourself a descriptivist? :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 05:12:58 PM
I do. I'm just skeptical of your evidence—it only takes one person to write a Wikipedia article, neh? And yet the OED has never seen it used enough to warrant its entry, whereas it does have diaeresis:

Quote
The sign [¨] marking such a division [of one syllable into two], or, more usually, placed over the second of two vowels which otherwise make a diphthong or single sound, to indicate that they are to be pronounced separately.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on August 14, 2011, 05:17:18 PM
Pfft.

It only takes one person to write an OED.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 05:24:38 PM
Even if that were true, how many did it take to write all the quotations they use as evidence?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 14, 2011, 05:32:27 PM
I think the purpose of calling it a trema instead of a diaeresis is that it means the diacritical mark when it's used for diaeresis (as it always is in English) as well as when it's used for umlaut (which, coincidentally, most people would call the mark even though we don't use it for umlaut in English). If we called it a diaeresis, we wouldn't be talking about the mark used for umlaut as well.

And it wasn't just one person. It was a group of people who, incidentally, already had this conversation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Trema_%28diacritic%29#Trema).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 05:58:20 PM
Hey, you're the one who impugned my claim to be a descriptivist while putting forward iffy evidence yourself. The talk page shows that there's a dispute among some people, not that trema is the more widely accepted term.

Quote
If we called it a diaeresis, we wouldn't be talking about the mark used for umlaut as well.
Which was pretty much my point. There are no umlauts in English aside from the heavy-metal kind.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 06:36:25 PM
For the record, I just assumed* that you didn't know the English term for the mark and were using the French term, because I've done that myself. I was trying to be helpful, and I'm sorry if it came across as pedantic.


*You know what happens when you assume.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on August 14, 2011, 07:12:08 PM
Even if that were true, how many did it take to write all the quotations they use as evidence?


I don't know, but that's a mind-blowing body of work.

(Probably 50% Shakespeare, right?)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 07:16:06 PM
Probably not. The quotes span nearly 1500 years of English, but Shakespeare's works span only about a quarter of a century.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on August 14, 2011, 07:27:20 PM
Yeah I was kidding (which I think you were on to).  But it would be cool to read all that stuff, huh?


While I'm here, should I have written onto?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2011, 07:37:40 PM
While I'm here, should I have written onto?

I'd say no, but I'm honestly not sure. This is one of those vexing little things that I've never sorted out, like can not/cannot. But this site (http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/onto.html) says that they're often interchangeable, so maybe it just doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 14, 2011, 09:54:40 PM
For the record, I just assumed* that you didn't know the English term for the mark and were using the French term, because I've done that myself. I was trying to be helpful, and I'm sorry if it came across as pedantic.


*You know what happens when you assume.

Gotcha. I assumed you were being helpful, but was trying to justify my choice of word. It led, in the end, to being much more aware of the subject than I was before.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Scott R on August 19, 2011, 12:13:58 PM
This is driving me crazy.

CANNOT.

NOT "CAN NOT."

Am I right?  Huh?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on August 19, 2011, 12:27:40 PM
From dictionary.com:

Quote
cannot is sometimes also spelled can not. The one-word spelling is by far the more common
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 19, 2011, 01:42:51 PM
Everything I can find says they're interchangeable, though most people giving advice will still give you the weaselly "But you should use cannot anyway."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on August 20, 2011, 10:28:00 PM
I had to do a search to figure out which one I use.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 21, 2011, 03:50:13 PM
I personally prefer cain't.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 21, 2011, 04:32:09 PM
I personally prefer cain't.
I'm partial to avoiding the whole debate in favor of [/i]not no-how[/i].
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 22, 2011, 07:33:48 AM
I'm not sure when I'd use cannot instead of can't. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on September 07, 2011, 09:46:01 AM
Bibliography question -- The guy I'm editing for has consistently put a comma rather than a period after the name of the author when the author only has one name (like Aristotle).  I wasn't aware that there was a difference, but none of the examples in my handy shortcut guide are one-namers and I don't want to hike over to the library to check Chicago.  Jonathon, I'm assuming you know this one off the top of your head -- should it be a period like all the other entries?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 07, 2011, 11:32:09 AM
I didn't know off the top of my head, but I looked it up pretty quickly. (Hooray for online access!) This is what Chicago 16 says:

Quote
Authors known only by their given names (i.e., and not by any surname) are listed and alphabetized by those names. Such titles as “King” or “Saint” are omitted.

Augustine. On Christian Doctrine. Translated by D. W. Robertson Jr. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill, 1958.
Elizabeth I. Collected Works. Edited by Leah S. Marcus, Janel Mueller, and Mary Beth Rose. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000.

It should be a period like all the other entries.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on September 07, 2011, 04:38:45 PM
Thank you.  I thought that was probably true (or at least I couldn't think of any reason why it wouldn't be) but I didn't want to change it in someone else's work unless I was sure.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 07, 2011, 06:29:27 PM
No problem.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on September 12, 2011, 03:04:54 PM
"I'll give it a looksee". Dictionary.com at least recognizes the word, and while it makes sense to combine those two verbs as a sort of informal lookover, is it possible the word was supposed to be "Looksy/looksie/looksey" where we attach the sound "ee" like in the word "looky looky" so as to give a word a more informal playful taste? Much like the words "meanie" "dummy" "hottie".

Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2011, 03:11:52 PM
The OED says of the etymology of look-see, "Pidgin-like formation < look n. or look v. + see v." Not terribly helpful. And Etymonline (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=look-see) is even less helpful. All I can find about it so far is that it's either from a form of Pidgin English or is simply imitative of Pidgin English.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on September 12, 2011, 03:37:51 PM
I guess we'll never know.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on September 12, 2011, 06:18:58 PM
It's probably Chinese. Everything that sounds like that ends up being Chinese.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 17, 2011, 01:09:51 PM
How did we manage to get gender-specific names for every relation except for cousins?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 17, 2011, 02:16:27 PM
How did we manage to get gender-specific names for every relation except for cousins?
In Chinese they have 'em. In fact they differentiate between paternal and maternal cousins as well as whether that cousin is the offspring of an older or younger sibling as compared to your parents. It's very confusing.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on October 17, 2011, 02:29:03 PM
I know. It's ridiculous. Except, my Chinese friends born after the one child policy went into effect don't even know all the terms. I asked my roommate to explain all the words for cousin to me one night and she couldn't.

It helped when I learned that the phrasing changes not necessarily on whether they're on your maternal or paternal side but on whether or not they share your surname.

As far as English goes, we got the word "cousin" from the French cousin/cousine, which are marked for gender. I wonder if English originally adopted it and lost the female form at one point, or whether females weren't prominent enough to warrant having a special term just for female cousins.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 17, 2011, 02:29:21 PM
In most romantic languages you have 'em.

Well, they're as gender-specific as brother and sister are in those languages.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2011, 02:40:12 PM
I honestly don't know the answer, but I think Annie's probably on the right track. Old English had words for male and female cousins, but cousin apparently pushed them out of use after the Norman conquest. Maybe English borrowed the feminine form of cousin as well but lost it when final unstressed es became silent.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 27, 2011, 04:06:20 PM
Which is proper usage?

"You can make additional changes by logging into Amazon.com".

"You can make additional changes by logging in to Amazon.com".

I was certain it's the former, but I keep getting a nagging feeling.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 27, 2011, 04:51:33 PM
True fact: I cannot find a rule about in to versus into in any usage or style book I own.

My take on it is this: if the in (or on) is part of a phrasal verb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrasal_verb), I leave them separate. I'd say that you ((log in) (to Amazon)), not that you (log (into Amazon)), if that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 27, 2011, 04:54:13 PM
A question for the ages. Both are used; I have heard arguments for each, but if there's a consensus of any kind it's news to me.

My take on it is this: if the in (or on) is part of a phrasal verb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrasal_verb), I leave them separate. I'd say that you ((log in) (to Amazon)), not that you (log (into Amazon)), if that makes any sense.
I see no reason it should not be the second. The logic seems circular to me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 27, 2011, 04:57:09 PM
Interesting. So I'm free to just chose my own way for now.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 27, 2011, 05:02:18 PM
Rivka: It's not circular logic—I'm not saying "it should be two words because it's two words." I'm saying that in my opinion, the syntactic structure indicates that it's two. I see log in as being a unit and to Amazon as being another unit. I can say I logged in on its own without the to Amazon part, and it's still a complete phrasal unit.

Can you give me an argument in favor of the second? I'd say, as a default rule, you shouldn't compound words unless there's a good enough reason to.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 27, 2011, 05:28:42 PM
I'm saying that in my opinion, the syntactic structure indicates that it's two. I see log in as being a unit and to Amazon as being another unit.
I understand that. I'm just not seeing why breaking it as "log" and "into Amazon" isn't just as valid.

I happen to prefer it as "in to", by the way. I just don't see this as much evidence for going that way.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 27, 2011, 06:27:38 PM
I'm saying that in my opinion, the syntactic structure indicates that it's two. I see log in as being a unit and to Amazon as being another unit.
I understand that. I'm just not seeing why breaking it as "log" and "into Amazon" isn't just as valid.

I happen to prefer it as "in to", by the way. I just don't see this as much evidence for going that way.

I thought I just explained why ((log) (into Amazon)) isn't as valid. The verb is log in. In is a particle that goes with log, not with the complement of to.

So what would you see as evidence if not a syntactic analysis?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 27, 2011, 07:53:27 PM
I'm with Jonathon on this.  You don't log anywhere; you log in.  And where are you logging in?  To Amazon!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on October 27, 2011, 09:17:03 PM
Log into Amazon sounds like an Ewok defense initiative.   ;)

Amazon uses the term "sign in".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 28, 2011, 07:05:31 AM
Quote
And where are you logging in?
My answer would be "Into Amazon".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 28, 2011, 09:00:55 AM
You're logging in into Amazon?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 28, 2011, 09:31:50 AM
Certainly not "To Amazon".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 28, 2011, 09:36:22 AM
Huh?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 28, 2011, 11:04:47 AM
In response to the question "And where are you logging in?", the response "To Amazon" sounds completely wrong to me, while "Into Amazon" sounds fine.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 28, 2011, 11:22:30 AM
But notice that you can't ask, "Where are you logging?" The in has to go with log. And you also log out of something, rather than logging outof it. As far as I can see, the only motivation for writing "into" rather than "in to" is that there's a common preposition "into". But just because it's written as one word sometimes doesn't mean it's always one word.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on October 28, 2011, 02:24:09 PM
I'm with Jonathon here.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 28, 2011, 02:42:26 PM
I'm leaning towards Jonathon on this too.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on October 29, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
Yeah, me too.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on October 29, 2011, 07:04:02 PM
To comma or not to comma?

"Any special projects, programs, or services..."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 29, 2011, 07:19:46 PM
As opposed to "Any special projects programs or services..."?   

Definitely comma.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 29, 2011, 07:33:07 PM
I assume you're asking about the comma before "or"? I prefer it.

As do all right-thinking people.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on October 29, 2011, 11:44:08 PM
Plus me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on October 30, 2011, 12:01:16 AM
You're already pausing at the "or," you don't also need the comma.

Silly wrong-thinking people.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on October 30, 2011, 07:28:51 AM
I assume you're asking about the comma before "or"? I prefer it.

As do all right-thinking people.

That's what I was asking, and I agree. But some of the people I am with don't. So I asked. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 30, 2011, 09:22:59 AM
You're already pausing at the "or," you don't also need the comma.

Silly wrong-thinking people.

But the "or" by itself does not signal a pause or break between list items.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on October 30, 2011, 03:49:19 PM
Do I wait in line or on line?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 30, 2011, 04:03:09 PM
That basically depends on whether or not you're from the New York area. (http://www4.uwm.edu/FLL/linguistics/dialect/staticmaps/q_93.html)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 30, 2011, 06:01:17 PM
I mostly use "on line", but "in line" doesn't sound wrong to me when other people use it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 30, 2011, 09:49:35 PM
I say "queued up". ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 01, 2011, 02:50:03 PM
Lay turns into laid, pay turns into paid, say, turns into said. Why not layed, payed, sayed? And why do we pronounce said very differently than laid and paid?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on November 01, 2011, 02:54:28 PM
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/DEATHSTRIKE-117/ancient-aliens-guy.png)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 01, 2011, 04:17:52 PM
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e64/DEATHSTRIKE-117/ancient-aliens-guy.png)

Case closed!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 01, 2011, 04:42:37 PM
Lay turns into laid, pay turns into paid, say, turns into said. Why not layed, payed, sayed? And why do we pronounce said very differently than laid and paid?

I'm honestly not sure why words ending in -y sometimes become -id and sometimes -yed in the simple past and past participial forms. But I believe that the pronunciation of said comes from the fact that it's a much more frequent word than the others, and in frequent words, vowels have a tendency to shorten and centralize. I'm not sure if the shortening happened prior to the Great Vowel Shift, which kept the "eh" from turning into an "ay", or if it happened later, turning the "ay" back into an "eh".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 01, 2011, 05:21:06 PM
Near as I can tell the -ay into -aid only happens with some single consonants followed by -ay. It doesn't happen with more than one consonant that is followed by -ay.

It perplexes me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 01, 2011, 06:40:59 PM
I'm not sure there's really a pattern there. Or rather, I'm not sure that's the reason why they vary that way.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 02, 2011, 10:54:03 AM
I'm not sure there's really a pattern there. Or rather, I'm not sure that's the reason why they vary that way.
I'm not sure it is either, but I don't have a better explanation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 03, 2011, 02:28:07 PM
I didn't think there weren't verbs ending in Y that didn't do that, but then Spacepook mention play and played.  Because if play followed that rule, it would be plaid.  Thus sayeth Spacepook.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 03, 2011, 03:10:20 PM
Frayed, strayed, stayed, bayed, flayed, grayed, hayed, prayed.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on November 03, 2011, 04:46:54 PM
Belayed.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 03, 2011, 04:54:12 PM
Good one!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 04, 2011, 05:41:50 PM
A lot of those are verbings.  I think it has a lot to do with how long a word has been a verb.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 04, 2011, 05:56:35 PM
Jonathon would know better, but I think almost all of those are long-standing verbs.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 04, 2011, 07:15:46 PM
I'm not going to bother looking all of them up, but many of those go back to Old or Middle English. Some of the others came in during Early Modern English, when spelling was still being standardized. It might have something to do with frequency—that is, more frequently used words tend to retain irregular morphology or spelling—but I'm not totally sure.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 05, 2011, 10:50:07 PM
Stay goes both ways, staid and stayed.  So I guess it could be a participle thing. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 05, 2011, 11:01:08 PM
Stay goes both ways, staid and stayed.  So I guess it could be a participle thing. 

Only when it's a participial adjective. But participial adjectives are often weird.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 05, 2011, 11:15:55 PM
Quote
Lay turns into laid, pay turns into paid, say, turns into said
This was the original set, don't these all work as participial adjectives, even though they can also be used as perfect indicative verbs?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 06, 2011, 09:03:48 AM
All past participles can potentially function as adjectives, but sometimes those participles split off and become solely adjectives, especially when they're irregularly formed or spelled. So we get adjectival forms like freshly mown grass and clean shaven, but most people would probably not say, "I have mown the lawn" or "I have shaven my face."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 06, 2011, 09:05:29 AM
The last few posts went mostly over my head, and I don't know what the relationship is between stay and staid, but staid is definitely not a past-tense verb of stay. It's an adjective, meaning boring.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 06, 2011, 09:14:13 AM
Staid comes from the past participle of stay. But as its meaning drifted, it lost its connection to stay and ended up with a different standardized spelling. All participles can work as adjectives (in fact, I believe this was their original function; they only became used in verb phrases later on), and sometimes the strictly adjectival forms and senses split off from the paradigm and resist regularization.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 08, 2011, 05:12:05 PM
Unbeknownst.

Why do we pronounce it (un-bek-nownst) when it should be (un-be-knownst)? The latter makes complete sense when you break down the words, and we certainly don't pronounce the k when we say "known".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 08, 2011, 05:20:44 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question. The k in unbeknownst is silent.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 08, 2011, 05:37:37 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question. The k in unbeknownst is silent.
See I've never heard it said that way. I must have been hearing it wrong all my life.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 08, 2011, 05:59:48 PM
That blows my mind. I've always heard it with a silent k and cannot imagine hearing anyone pronounce it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 08, 2011, 06:02:11 PM
That blows my mind. I've always heard it with a silent k and cannot imagine hearing anyone pronounce it.
Ditto.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on November 08, 2011, 06:03:10 PM
That blows my mind. I've always heard it with a silent k and cannot imagine hearing anyone pronounce it.
Ditto.

This. Who the heck says the K?

(are your friends and family maybe Russian spies, BB?)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 08, 2011, 06:37:13 PM
That blows my mind. I've always heard it with a silent k and cannot imagine hearing anyone pronounce it.
It's more the -be- in unbeknownst was said beh not bee, and when said fluidly it sounds like there's a k hiding in there somewhere.

Anyway, I'm glad to have fixed that quirk.

Annie: If they were do you think I'd own up to that?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 08, 2011, 06:39:41 PM
I'll have to ask you to say it next time I see you, because I don't get how a k could be hiding in a fluid pronunciation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on November 08, 2011, 06:54:10 PM
I've heard it with the e as a schwa, if that's what you're talking about …
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 08, 2011, 07:06:00 PM
I'll have to ask you to say it next time I see you, because I don't get how a k could be hiding in a fluid pronunciation.
I'm coming over right now, for science!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on November 08, 2011, 07:30:29 PM
This I've got to hear.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 09, 2011, 09:46:56 AM
Maybe he's referring to a glottal stop. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on November 16, 2011, 08:32:50 AM
Here's a question: what's the deal with discrete and discreet? Are they etymologically related?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on November 16, 2011, 08:54:34 AM
I laughed the other day on Futurama when Bender was running his dating service.  The sign said "discreet and discrete". :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 16, 2011, 11:42:30 AM
Here's a question: what's the deal with discrete and discreet? Are they etymologically related?

Indeed they are. Discrete was borrowed from Latin in the sense of "separate" or "distinct", while discreet came from French in the sense of "discerning" or "prudent". The latter was also spelled discrete but eventually settled on the double e. So it's essentially different senses of the same word borrowed at different times and more or less arbitrarily assigned different spellings. See also compliment and complement.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 16, 2011, 02:23:56 PM
Stationery and Stationary?  
It appears that stationery was sold at a stationary place, as opposed to by peddlers.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 16, 2011, 02:52:18 PM
Basically, yes. Stationery is stationer + y, meaning "goods sold by a stationer". Apparently a stationer was someone who sold books or writing materials. It originally meant someone who had a fixed station or shop rather than a travelling vendor. Stationary is from station + ary, meaning "having to do with a station" (i.e., being fixed or unmoving). But these both go back to the Latin statiōnārius. And stationery was frequently spelled stationary in the 1600s and 1700s. So both words come from the same root borrowed at different times in different forms.

For a good native English example, there's then and than and off and of. These pairs were originally the same words, and they differentiated in spelling and and meaning based on stress. In certain functions, the words tended to be unstressed, leading to reduced vowels and the voiced f in of. In other functions they retained their stressed forms (though than is frequently unstressed too, leading to homophony with then).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 17, 2011, 07:20:37 AM
Why is there malign and malignant but not benign and benignant?  I want benignant.


Can you do anything, as a language maven, to make it happen?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on November 17, 2011, 07:49:50 AM
Quote
I want benignant.
You can have that when you learn how to benign.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on November 17, 2011, 08:38:30 AM
I just want a beignet.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 17, 2011, 09:11:55 AM
Why is there malign and malignant but not benign and benignant?  I want benignant.


Can you do anything, as a language maven, to make it happen?

Behold what I have wrought! (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/benignant)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 17, 2011, 09:18:56 AM
(http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/graemlins/hail.gif)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on November 17, 2011, 10:01:57 AM
*smiles benignantly*
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on November 17, 2011, 10:12:26 AM
Is that powdered sugar on your chin?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on November 17, 2011, 10:22:25 AM
;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 17, 2011, 10:28:43 AM
(http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/graemlins/hail.gif)

I will accept offerings in the form of beignets.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on November 18, 2011, 12:40:19 PM
curse you and your subliminal frankish pastries!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dobie on November 24, 2011, 09:37:01 AM
If Bruce Wayne does a good deed in a tavern is that considered a bar mitzvah or a bat mitzvah?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 06, 2012, 01:32:39 AM
¿Is it just in English that the "four letter words" have four letters?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on January 06, 2012, 09:07:16 AM
In French they have more, but they're silent.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 31, 2012, 02:30:10 PM
I keep hearing how "irregardless" is not a word.  How can it not be a word?  It looks like a word.  What is it, if it is not a word?

How do new words get made legitimate?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on January 31, 2012, 03:18:12 PM
I think you mean "How are new words legitimated?"
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 31, 2012, 06:21:04 PM
I keep hearing how "irregardless" is not a word.  How can it not be a word?  It looks like a word.  What is it, if it is not a word?

How do new words get made legitimate?
Over my dead body.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on January 31, 2012, 07:09:15 PM
Flammable became a word in much the same way.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 31, 2012, 09:09:10 PM
I keep hearing how "irregardless" is not a word.  How can it not be a word?  It looks like a word.  What is it, if it is not a word?

How do new words get made legitimate?

What people effectively mean when they say something isn't a word is that it's a word that they strongly dislike. As you said, of course it's a word.

The last question is much trickier, though, because it depends on what you mean by "legitimate." Irregardless is legitimate in the sense that it's a real word that people use. It's even in dictionaries (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless). Words become legitimate in this broader sense when enough people use them.

But if by "legitimate" you mean standard, then that's something different. Irregardless is a real word, but it's nonstandard because it's not accepted by enough educated speakers. And that's unlikely to happen with irregardless because of its ill-formedness and its frequent use by less-educated speakers.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 31, 2012, 09:11:12 PM
Also, if you want to know how a word gets into the dictionary, I'd recommend this video (http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/0032-howaword.htm).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 31, 2012, 09:26:32 PM
Flammable became a word in much the same way.
But . . . that was before I was born, so how could it happen over my body, dead or otherwise?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on February 01, 2012, 08:36:26 AM
Good point! ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 01, 2012, 08:50:13 AM
Flammable became a word in much the same way.
But . . . that was before I was born, so how could it happen over my body, dead or otherwise?

Preincarnation?


Now that should definitely be made a word.  Everyone write it so that the dictionary people take notice.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on February 01, 2012, 09:01:04 AM
Did I ever talk to you guys about my theory that because Germans stick words together like legos, they don't have very many great writers?  That is, there is not the popular hero worship for people who can write well in German?  (My brother in law got his doctorate in German literature so of course there are a lot of good german writers.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 01, 2012, 09:13:21 AM
I don't think I've heard that theory before, but I don't believe it. At the very least I'm highly skeptical of the idea that there's somehow a connection, especially since I know that German does have some great writers.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on February 01, 2012, 09:55:06 AM
Like, maybe, Goethe?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 01, 2012, 12:23:05 PM
Oh, come on. No one can even pronounce his name!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on February 01, 2012, 07:59:27 PM
I can.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 01, 2012, 08:05:31 PM
[ˈɡøːtə]

That's not so hard, is it?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 01, 2012, 09:14:17 PM
I haven't any idea.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 01, 2012, 10:14:55 PM
Neither do I. Whenever I pronounce Descartes name properly *everybody* looks at me like I'm insane.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 01, 2012, 10:28:18 PM
How do you pronounce it?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on February 02, 2012, 09:46:01 AM
Goethe is somewhat between "Guh-tuh" and "Gooh-tuh," the "oo" being the sound in "look."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 02, 2012, 09:59:03 AM
I'd say it's a little more like "GUR-tuh," but without the R, as if you were British.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dobie on February 02, 2012, 10:04:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbYBlzOHxiE
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on February 02, 2012, 10:27:19 AM
I'd say it's a little more like "GUR-tuh," but without the R, as if you were British.

Yeah, that's a better explanation of how to make the sound.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on February 02, 2012, 10:29:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbYBlzOHxiE

*thwack*
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on February 02, 2012, 10:56:39 AM
The anecdote I'm going off is that the two great german authors are Goethe and Shakespeare.  Though since we know Shakespeare will eventually be adopted by the Klingons as well, I don't suppose I can fault the Germans for that.  

I imagine my brother in law would counter than in German authors are meansured by their ideas and not how good they sound.  

I can't remember who said the first thing anymore, it was like 25 years ago and might have been my german teacher or either of my English teachers that I read Faust with.  

It also might have been the guy who taught AP European history.  It's weird that I liked history so much in high school but never took it in college.  But that's probably because I got into Linguistics.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on February 02, 2012, 11:05:21 AM
Pooka is not entirely insane, this time:
http://aurora.wells.edu/~klarson/papers/facclub1.htm

I guess some interesting things happened academically in order for German Nationalism to coexist with the reality that Shakespeare is awesome, i.e.  Make Shakespeare a part of the German nation.

It's likelier the quote I heard was something along the lines that Goethe, Schiller and Shakespeare are the trimvirate of German classical literature.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 02, 2012, 11:32:52 AM
I'd say it's a little more like "GUR-tuh," but without the R, as if you were British.
Yes, that's how my mom (who is semi-fluent in German) taught me to say it.

I was commenting on the fact that I can't read [ˈɡøːtə]. I can say Goethe. Most Americans can't though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 02, 2012, 12:50:40 PM
How do you pronounce it?
Descartes:

Deh-Cau-r-ght but I swallow the r.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 02, 2012, 12:59:36 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "swallow," and I'm not seeing how that's that different from the correct pronunciation. But I'd probably have to hear you say it. I'd say it's just "day-CART."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 02, 2012, 02:08:23 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "swallow," and I'm not seeing how that's that different from the correct pronunciation. But I'd probably have to hear you say it. I'd say it's just "day-CART."
The r stays in my throat as opposed to coming up into my mouth. I meant more your average person looks at me like I'm crazy. I would expect somebody like you and Ruth to know these sorts of things.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 02, 2012, 02:09:50 PM
Quick question. Does the word kind come from the German "kinder" so in essence child like?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dobie on February 02, 2012, 02:28:07 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDrET0YjZFY
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 02, 2012, 02:29:17 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "swallow," and I'm not seeing how that's that different from the correct pronunciation. But I'd probably have to hear you say it. I'd say it's just "day-CART."
The r stays in my throat as opposed to coming up into my mouth. I meant more your average person looks at me like I'm crazy. I would expect somebody like you and Ruth to know these sorts of things.

Don't take this the wrong way, but most laypeople are pretty bad at describing what's going on in their mouths when they make sounds. It's something we do so automatically that it's hard to figure out what we're doing, even when you stop and think about it. It generally takes some specific training in phonetics to get a good grasp on it.

This is all a long-winded way of saying that I doubt you're actually making an /r/ sound in your throat. Very few languages have sounds that are actually produced in the throat. Even languages like German, which is often considered very throaty or guttural, produces all of its sounds in the mouth, though some are made with the back of the tongue against the uvula.

You may be doing something strange and interesting with the /r/ in "Descartes," but I'd wager that it's not being made in your throat.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 02, 2012, 02:35:04 PM
Well that's the second time I've been called an idiot today. These things usually come in threes, so I wonder when it's coming.

Sorry if I'm reacting a bit strongly, I was already wincing from a comment somebody else made just minutes ago.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 02, 2012, 02:47:24 PM
Quick question. Does the word kind come from the German "kinder" so in essence child like?

Short answer: no. Long answer: They might be related, but I'm not sure. Kind comes from the same root that gives us kin and, via French, Latin, and Greek, a whole host of words like genus, gene, gentle, general, and genius. They all go back to a Proto-Indo-European word meaning "to beget" or "to produce".

With kind, the sense developed something along these lines:

natural, native
belonging to one by birth
of good birth
having good qualities
having a gentle or nice nature

From what I can tell, the German Kind is related, meaning it descends from the same root, not that it was borrowed from English or that it was a source of borrowing into English. The etymology there is a little more straightforward; the Proto-Indo-European root means "to beget", and in a sense the German Kind means "one who is begotten".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 02, 2012, 02:53:16 PM
Well that's the second time I've been called an idiot today. These things usually come in threes, so I wonder when it's coming.

Sorry if I'm reacting a bit strongly, I was already wincing from a comment somebody else made just minutes ago.

 >_<

Sorry, Taylor. I should've known how that would sound. For the record, I absolutely do not think you're an idiot. I'm just saying that studying linguistics has taught me to be skeptical of people's intuitions about their own speech and usage. I don't know if there's a good way to say that doesn't sound at least a little like "You suck at thinking about language."

But I'm probably just sticking my foot further in my mouth rather than pulling it out.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 02, 2012, 02:59:19 PM
I'd say it's just "day-CART."
And thus all the jokes about "putting Descartes before the horse".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 02, 2012, 03:02:01 PM
Heh. I'll survive, I understood what you were saying. While I do think I know what my own mouth is doing, I know that linguistics has a much more consistent and effective vocabulary set for describing exactly what is happening. I couldn't really do a better job describing it because I was practicing R sounds out loud and people were wondering what on earth I was up to.

I guess Descartes makes me look insane in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on February 02, 2012, 03:12:37 PM
If you want to pronounce Descartes the French way, you can practice the R with something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b920AesqDs). If you want to use the usual Anglicized pronunciation, day-CART is just fine.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 02, 2012, 03:44:36 PM
Heh. I'll survive, I understood what you were saying. While I do think I know what my own mouth is doing, I know that linguistics has a much more consistent and effective vocabulary set for describing exactly what is happening. I couldn't really do a better job describing it because I was practicing R sounds out loud and people were wondering what on earth I was up to.

I guess Descartes makes me look insane in more ways than one.

 :D

That's a pretty common phenomenon in linguistics classes. It's pretty funny to hear a whole class full of people start making weird noises under their breath.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on February 02, 2012, 09:10:34 PM
Eh, I didn't know about my alveolar ridge until I took linguistics.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on February 03, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
Control yourself!  This is a family-safe forum!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on February 04, 2012, 09:08:44 AM
Eh, I didn't know about my alveolar ridge until I took linguistics.
Uhg  I can't believe I had to check the prior page and it was my own post. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on February 11, 2012, 06:35:35 PM
I pretty much forgot this half of the forum even exists.  Now the prospect of trying to catch up depresses me.  So I shan't.

I'm proof reading a friend's essay and he uses "whom" all over the place.  He says that in philosophy they use "whom" all the time because it helps to distinguish which person they're referring to when they write.  Anyway, in this particular phrase has he used "whom" correctly?
Quote
I would continue on in the prospect of honoring my family whom I loved so dearly
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on February 11, 2012, 09:40:01 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 11, 2012, 09:43:30 PM
Yes, that's correct. You should be able to replace "whom" with another object pronoun like "him" or "her" or "them" and move it back to its normal position in the clause.

whom I loved so dearly > I loved whom so dearly > I loved them so dearly

But your friend's explanation makes me wonder whether he actually knows how to use it properly. Maybe he does know how to use it but explained it badly.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on February 11, 2012, 11:15:04 PM
he explained it much better, but I didn't understand and so paraphrased it really poorly.  I've never really understood the distinction.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 12, 2012, 09:35:21 AM
It's the same distinction between subject and object that most other personal pronouns show. Just think of he/him and they/them as a mnemonic. The trouble with who/whom is that it usually moves to the front of the sentence, so sometimes you have to mentally move it back to see if it's a subject or object.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on February 13, 2012, 11:52:51 AM
Thank you!  That is very good to know!  B)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 13, 2012, 12:01:45 PM
No problem. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 22, 2012, 07:47:57 AM
Pants, jeans, trousers, britches, Levis, dungarees -- they're all plural.  But why.  It's not like anyone ever has one pant, jean, trouser, britch, Levi, or dungaree.  And I understand that they have two legs, but shirts have two sleeves, and blouse, top, shirt, chemise, and sweater are all singular.  As is jacket, coat, windbreaker, yadda yadda ya.

Even underwear that has no legs (just leg openings) get pluralized: boxers, jockeys, shorts, panties.  How is a person supposed to put on a pair of panties when there is only one of them?  What are the two halves of the pair here?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on February 22, 2012, 07:58:14 AM
Levis is a brand name, and is just as plural when talking about a Levis jacket.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on February 22, 2012, 08:54:50 AM
I don't wear underwears.  (At the same time.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 22, 2012, 08:58:06 AM
Quibblers!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 22, 2012, 09:34:29 AM
Pants, jeans, trousers, britches, Levis, dungarees -- they're all plural.  But why.  It's not like anyone ever has one pant, jean, trouser, britch, Levi, or dungaree.  And I understand that they have two legs, but shirts have two sleeves, and blouse, top, shirt, chemise, and sweater are all singular.  As is jacket, coat, windbreaker, yadda yadda ya.

Even underwear that has no legs (just leg openings) get pluralized: boxers, jockeys, shorts, panties.  How is a person supposed to put on a pair of panties when there is only one of them?  What are the two halves of the pair here?

I don't fully understand the historical reasons, but English has a whole bunch of plurals that denote things made of two connected halves, like scissors, tweezers, pliers, glasses, and so on. A shirt may have two sleeves, but it's not essentially two sleeves that join in the middle, whereas pants are more or less two legs that join in the middle. And in the middle ages, one might wear a pair of hose—separate pieces on each leg—so there's some historical precedent for treating pants and trousers the same way. Briefs, boxers, and panties all follow the same pattern simply by analogy.


Levis is a brand name, and is just as plural when talking about a Levis jacket.

Except it's Levi's—possessive, not plural.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on February 22, 2012, 09:40:17 AM
Except for the misspelling, what I said is correct -- it is just as plural when talking about jackets or pants.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 22, 2012, 09:51:51 AM
Can you give me an example? I'm not quite sure I follow.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on February 22, 2012, 11:04:54 AM
"I bought a new pair of Levi's [jeans]."  "I bought a new Levi's jacket."

The word Levi's is just as plural in the second sentence as in the first sentence -- not at all.

Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 22, 2012, 11:16:01 AM
I guess I misunderstood your first post. By "just as plural," I thought you were saying that "Levi's" is plural just as "pants" is plural.

But I'm still not sure what point you're making.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on February 22, 2012, 11:47:16 AM
She was asking why words like pants, bloomers, panties, trousers, Levi's, chaps, and other leg coverings are plural.

I was pointing out that Levi's doesn't fit with the the rest of that list. The s in Levi's does not come from it being leg clothing.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 22, 2012, 12:27:41 PM
Ah, I see now. I think it's still treated as a plural when used alone to refer to pants, though. If I talk about a pair of Levi's, I'm essentially saying "a pair of Levi's [pants or jeans]." So Levi's itself is not plural, but it's an adjective by itself standing in for an implied plural noun. But the same doesn't apply if it's a Levi's jacket.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: spacepook on March 06, 2012, 07:48:38 PM
How do you pronounce "butcher"? I have always pronounced it but-chir (totally failed at the special thing you guys do with the stuff and the italics) but pooka and the Man say it's boot-chir.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 06, 2012, 08:32:04 PM
It's actually boo-sher. Doesn't that sound so much more pleasant? ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 06, 2012, 08:37:08 PM
It's actually boo-sher.
??? ??? ??? Definitely not.

I say it like this. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=butche01&word=butcher&text=\%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3E%CB%88%3C%2Fspan%3Eb%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3Eu%CC%87%3C%2Fspan%3E-ch%C9%99r\)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 06, 2012, 09:54:29 PM
I'd say the same as Rivka's link. In IPA, it's ['bʊtʃɹ]. The first vowel is the same as in put, not but or boot.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 07, 2012, 07:25:54 AM
Now I say it like that, but growing up, we pronounced it "BUT-chuh".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 07, 2012, 08:47:48 AM
It's actually boo-sher.
??? ??? ??? Definitely not.

I say it like this. (http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=butche01&word=butcher&text=\%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3E%CB%88%3C%2Fspan%3Eb%3Cspan%20class%3D%22unicode%22%3Eu%CC%87%3C%2Fspan%3E-ch%C9%99r\)
Definitely not the correct pronunciation, or definitely not better sounding?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 07, 2012, 10:05:04 AM
Both, actually.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 07, 2012, 04:55:30 PM
I'm sorry being 50% right is still being incorrect.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on March 07, 2012, 06:27:14 PM
You're half right.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 07, 2012, 10:06:18 PM
You're half right.
How much do I have left then?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on March 07, 2012, 10:44:03 PM
I still remember an episode of Bewitched where the evil brunette cousin of Samantha mentioned that she got in trouble for wearing half of her bikini to the beach.

When asked, she said that it was the left half.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 08, 2012, 10:41:28 PM
I told her the first syllable should rhyme with book.  Fortunately, no one has much cause to say butcher anymore, kind of like how it doesn't matter that I say "sword" wrong. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 08, 2012, 11:21:55 PM
Fortunately, no one has much cause to say butcher anymore
???

I use the word fairly often.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on March 09, 2012, 12:31:45 AM
I don't use the noun very often. But I use the verb a lot, especially when discussing what Lady Gaga does to music.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 09, 2012, 08:07:39 AM
 :D

I use both.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 09, 2012, 12:35:12 PM
The noun comes up every time I mention those three men in a tub.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 13, 2012, 02:02:17 PM
Dear Expert,
       
How dare you question my judgement!

Or,

How dare you question my judgement?

That is all.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 13, 2012, 02:10:13 PM
Either one is fine. I'd say it depends on what you're trying to convey. The exclamation mark says righteous indignation to me, while the question mark conveys more hurt and betrayal. (But that's just my impressionistic interpretation; your mileage may vary.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 13, 2012, 02:13:04 PM
Seems like the placement of how necessitates it being a question. Though I've certainly used it as a statement without expecting an answer like I would a question.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 13, 2012, 02:31:18 PM
Syntactically, it's a question. But as you said, pragmatically, it's really not. It often has more of the force of a statement or exclamation. You can find instances with either question marks or exclamation marks (or even just periods) in published writing. You could even use both an exclamation mark and a question mark if you want.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 13, 2012, 02:56:38 PM
You could even use both an exclamation mark and a question mark if you want.
Only in informal writing though, neh?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 13, 2012, 04:11:59 PM
*shrug*

I don't know of any hard and fast rule against doing so. But I'm not sure what kind of formal writing would include the sentence "How dare you question my judgement!"
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 13, 2012, 04:18:19 PM
A character speaking in a book. And if they used double punctuation, I would be dismayed.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 13, 2012, 04:28:43 PM
Huh. I'm not sure I would call fiction "formal writing." (I'm not sure that I'd call it informal either.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 13, 2012, 04:40:34 PM
Semi-formal? ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 13, 2012, 05:35:07 PM
I'd prefer double punctuation to the necessary conversational tag, which would have to be "Taylor ejaculated".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 13, 2012, 05:50:56 PM
Semi-formal? ;)

Business casual?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 13, 2012, 05:53:01 PM
Semi-formal is much more formal than business casual.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on March 13, 2012, 06:53:37 PM
Of course, at least in the States, there's only one e in judgment.  So both are wrong.   :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 13, 2012, 07:43:15 PM
Of course, at least in the States, there's only one e in judgment.  
Which has never made sense to me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Nighthawk on March 13, 2012, 08:19:07 PM
You could even use both an exclamation mark and a question mark if you want.
Only in informal writing though, neh?

I use the "?!?" option somewhat often, but informally.

Formally, I'd use an exclamation mark but precede it with the words "you idiot". As in "How dare you question my judgement, you idiot!" ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 13, 2012, 08:38:50 PM
Semi-formal is much more formal than business casual.

Yes, I know. I just thought the visualization of writing as business attire was mildly amusing.

Of course, at least in the States, there's only one e in judgment.  So both are wrong.   :p

Judgement is listed without comment as a variant in Merriam-Webster.

Which has never made sense to me.

Me either. Where else does dg by itself = j? By the normal rules of English spelling (which, of course, leave much to be desired), it has to have the e after it to make the g soft.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 13, 2012, 10:12:15 PM
I always wanted to have a reality TV show called Judge Mental. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 14, 2012, 12:45:07 AM
*shrug*

I don't know of any hard and fast rule against doing so. But I'm not sure what kind of formal writing would include the sentence "How dare you question my judgement!"

A letter of resignation?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 14, 2012, 07:33:59 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on March 14, 2012, 07:37:22 AM
How.  Dare.  You.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dobie on March 23, 2012, 03:26:00 PM
Is The Comics Curmudgeon (http://joshreads.com/?p=12887) right?

Quote
Bull, dear, you were scouted by the St. Louis Cardinals, not “the then” St. Louis Cardinals. Believe it or not, they were called “the St. Louis Cardinals” only during their years in St. Louis (1960 – 1987), so there’s no risk of confusion with any “before” or “after” St. Louis Cardinals. If you need to rule out the baseball team, just add “NFL” or “football.” But otherwise, please — it’s a language; people use it to communicate. Show some care with it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: spacepook on May 09, 2012, 07:57:41 PM
Is this statement grammatically correct?

Quote
As the flag covers the United States of America, so I strive to inform the people in order that every man, woman and child may know that the FFA is a national organization that reaches from the state of Alaska to Puerto Rico and from the state of Maine to Hawaii.

It seems to me that the "so I strive" is wrong in some way. Like an improper clause or something??? It's been bugging me ever since I went to the most recent FFA meeting that my chapter has every month.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 09, 2012, 08:01:28 PM
Grammatically it's fine, I think, but I'm not sure it works semantically. And it's a little archaic.

In this sense it means something like "in this manner", so it's something like "In the same manner in which the flag covers the United States of America, I strive to inform the people . . ."

But how do you strive to inform in the same way in which the flag covers the nation?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: spacepook on May 09, 2012, 08:17:36 PM
Well the FFA has a lot of symbolism that it likes to incorporate into itself, so since the flag represents the United States, and the FFA is a national organization, the reporter (the chapter officer who says this little speech during the opening ceremonies of a meeting) represents the interests of the FFA through various media. Therefore, according to FFA logic, the reporter is equal to the flag symbolically.

It just didn't sound right to me when the person acting as reporter would say it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 10, 2012, 07:02:01 AM
But how do you strive to inform in the same way in which the flag covers the nation?

Semaphore.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 11, 2012, 11:46:05 AM
Tante Shvester scores 10 points.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 11, 2012, 02:44:12 PM
I'm the most awarded poster on this thread!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 15, 2012, 05:10:22 PM
Well the FFA has a lot of symbolism that it likes to incorporate into itself, so since the flag represents the United States, and the FFA is a national organization, the reporter (the chapter officer who says this little speech during the opening ceremonies of a meeting) represents the interests of the FFA through various media. Therefore, according to FFA logic, the reporter is equal to the flag symbolically.

It just didn't sound right to me when the person acting as reporter would say it.

Spacepook is in FFA? :wub:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on May 16, 2012, 09:13:06 PM
She's VP elect  ;D
Though she's struggling in English.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 17, 2012, 07:23:04 AM
Like Dan Quayle!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 17, 2012, 08:52:57 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on May 18, 2012, 08:14:37 PM
 :D
Doritoes.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: spacepook on May 20, 2012, 02:25:44 PM
She's VP elect  ;D
Though she's struggling in English.

I'm working on it... I promises.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 20, 2012, 09:17:34 PM
I was a state officer. I don't know if you ever knew that.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 21, 2012, 09:12:39 AM
I'm guessing that you haven't reached the part of your future where you farm in America yet.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 21, 2012, 09:24:24 AM
Nope, still haven't gotten there.

Oddly enough, though, my little sister has. I think she did some weird voodoo and traded our futures.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: spacepook on May 22, 2012, 03:18:21 PM
Whoa, you were STATE OFFICER? That's so cool! :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 23, 2012, 09:13:57 AM
Past performance is no guarantee of future farming.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 23, 2012, 10:32:20 AM
:lol:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 23, 2012, 10:33:42 AM
To be fair, they changed the name of the organization to "The National FFA Organization" from "Future Farmers of America" in 1988 to reflect the diversification of careers related to agriculture.

Of course, I don't have a career related to agriculture either. But I did regale my inlaws by naming the four stomachs of the cow the other day.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 24, 2012, 08:02:03 AM
Moe, Larry, Curly and Shep?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 25, 2012, 10:55:29 AM
Well, in the Vulgate, yes.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 25, 2012, 11:07:45 AM
Hey I have a question for the expert:

The other day we spent some time with my husband's uncle, who is an extremely pleasant fellow. They got on the topic of their family history, which is very complex because they're recent immigrants from a very poor country that doesn't have a lot of good records, and there are all sorts of half-siblings and mistresses and things and huge numbers of cousins. My husband's uncle (his name is Esdras) was mentioning that one of his cousins (named Mario) always referred to him (Esdras) as his primo hermano and he'd only recently figured out that this was because their fathers were full brothers and this plus the fact that they are related on the father's side, in their rather machismo-laden society, meant that being primos hermanos made them closer than normal primos.

Then just today I was reading a short story that referred to a character as a "cousin-german" to the protagonist.  All I could find about the term "cousin-german" is that it means first cousin and it's etymologically related to the word germaine.

I'm wondering now if there's a Latin connection between hermano and germaine. And if there's any relationship to Germany and Germania or if that's just coincidental.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 25, 2012, 11:12:43 AM
Oh. I just realized I spelled germane wrong because I was thinking in French. But I'm on my iPod and it's super hard to edit. Apologies.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 25, 2012, 11:40:37 AM
Hermano comes from the Latin germanus, which can mean "relating to brothers and sisters" or "full, own". It's related to the word germ, meaning "bud, seed". The "german" in "cousin-german" is apparently the same word, but it's not clear whether the demonym German is related, because there's no good explanation of how the sense is related. It might be of Gaulish origin.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on May 25, 2012, 11:49:58 AM
Interesting! And as I suspected. Do you have any good sources about how the Romance languages diverged? I always wondered why French and Italian used frere/soeur and fratello/sorella while Spanish and Portuguese used herman(o/a) and irmã(o).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 25, 2012, 12:47:28 PM
I don't really have any good sources. I know that a certain amount of lexical replacement is normal as languages evolve. People start saying "frater germanus" all the time, and then they drop the "frater" part, at which point they're just using "germanus" (or whatever its early Romance reflex was) to mean "brother". But changes like this tend to be pretty arbitrary. Spanish kept the Latin word for "cheese" (cassius, which became queso), while French and Italian replaced it with fromage/formaggio. All three replaced the Latin word for "horse", equus, with a different stem, caballo/cheval/cavallo. There doesn't appear to be much rhyme or reason to it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 04, 2012, 05:53:05 PM
Minor question. Which is more correct:

The phone line is available from at 8 am to 5 pm Central Time.

or

The phone line is available from 8 am to 5 pm Central Time Zone.

I contend the word "zone" is not necessary, but someone edited to include it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 04, 2012, 05:54:57 PM
I like it without the zone.  That's the way I'm accustomed to seeing it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 04, 2012, 06:16:50 PM
I can't articulate a good justification for leaving it off, except that maybe the zone designates a geographic area, and you're not really talking about the area but about the time associated with it. All Chicago says on the matter is "Time zones, where needed, are usually given in parentheses—for example, 4:45 p.m. (CST)." But note that they don't say "Central Time Zone" or "CTZ".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 04, 2012, 08:16:25 PM
the zone designates a geographic area, and you're not really talking about the area but about the time associated with it.
That would certainly be my reasoning. I think adding the word "zone" sounds dreadful.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 04, 2012, 09:35:43 PM
That's what I thought, rivka.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 05, 2012, 01:49:24 PM
So would you write 8 a.m to 5 p.m central time or Central Time?

Does it make a difference if you write 8am or 8 a.m.?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 05, 2012, 02:03:50 PM
I think it's lowercased if you spell it out, so either "central time" or "CST" (though the problem with that is that it technically only refers to the non-DST part of the year).

I also think that "a.m.", with a space between it and the time, is the usual form.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 05, 2012, 03:11:21 PM
I would capitalize Central Time.

I would also use either 8 a.m. OR 8 AM, but the most important thing is to be consistent, at least within a single document.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on June 06, 2012, 07:25:08 AM
I think plain "Central" is descriptive enough.  Add more than that, and kids start calling you on daylight or standard, just to mess with you.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 06, 2012, 10:50:48 AM
Not for an article, I don't think, pooka. I'd rather go with Central Time. Which is what I ended up doing. I don't what to specify CST or CDT because the article will probably be used for reference.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on June 06, 2012, 09:53:53 PM
I hate it when co-workers schedule something during the summertime for, say, noon EST instead of EDT.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 06, 2012, 10:23:25 PM
All the more reason to abolish DST!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 06, 2012, 11:21:34 PM
Hear, hear!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 07, 2012, 04:59:23 AM
I, on the other hand, want to save daylight all year round.  I appreciate sundown moved back an hour to give me more time to make Shabbos.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 07, 2012, 09:09:46 AM
I hate having Shabbos be so long on Saturday night. I'd rather have it start early Friday than end late on Saturday night.

I just universally dislike daylight savings time. I don't want to save any daylight.  :grumble:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 07, 2012, 09:19:16 AM
Get outta my time zone!  I'm trying to save some daylight here!

You know, comes the apocalypse when the infrastructure loses its structure and there's no electricity, you'll be sorry you didn't save more daylight, so that you could use it during all those long dark nights.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 07, 2012, 12:05:26 PM
I, on the other hand, want to save daylight all year round.  I appreciate sundown moved back an hour to give me more time to make Shabbos.
I'm with her.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 07, 2012, 12:10:13 PM
But not with me in the actual time zone.  Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 07, 2012, 12:11:42 PM
True. But someone needs to take care of this one too, you know?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 07, 2012, 12:53:19 PM
Absolutely!  Carry on with the good work!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 12, 2012, 09:21:23 AM
Latin names of an organism (genus/species): Italicized or not?

Home sapiens.

Home sapiens.

The latter looks right to me and is what I'm used to seeing, but web sources don't agree on whether these names should be italicized or not.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 12, 2012, 09:25:09 AM
I was taught to italicize Latin species names.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 12, 2012, 09:29:46 AM
Me, too, but I want to see what Jonathon says. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 12, 2012, 09:33:55 AM
Home sapiens.

Don't get out much anymore.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 12, 2012, 09:47:12 AM
Italicize. From Chicago:

Quote
Whether in lists or in running text, the Latin names of species of plants and animals are italicized. Each binomial contains a genus name (or generic name), which is capitalized, and a species name (also called specific name or specific epithet), which is lowercased (even if it is a proper adjective). Do not confuse these names with phyla, orders, and such, which are not italicized.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 12, 2012, 10:17:37 AM
Thanks! That's exactly the information I needed!

If it's just the genus name (eg Lactobacillus) I'm assuming that would also be italicized?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 12, 2012, 10:25:20 AM
It doesn't explicitly say from what I can see, but it does give some examples with just a genus name, which is italicized. For example:

Quote
The Pleistocene saber-toothed cats all belonged to the genus Smilodon.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 12, 2012, 10:27:33 AM
Yeah, that's what I would expect, based on what I learned.

Thanks, again!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 12, 2012, 02:44:57 PM
It's called "italics", I suppose, because things in Italy tend to lean over to one side.  Like that tower in Pisa.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 12, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
Or maybe it's a type form that was developed in Italy. :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on June 12, 2012, 05:19:12 PM
How can you write Latin in italics? Italian is a Latin based language!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 13, 2012, 08:51:03 AM
Or maybe it's a type form that was developed in Italy. :p

I believe that the original typesetting was done in a shop located in the Tower of Pisa.  It looked perfectly straight when they set it, but once they took it outside, they realized it was all slanted over to the right.  Instead of starting over, they just brazened it out and pretended that they meant to do it that way.

Or so it's been said.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 22, 2012, 04:21:04 PM
What's the etymological connection between pet the verb and pet the noun? Why do we pet our pets?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 22, 2012, 04:37:36 PM
The noun pet developed a verbal sense "to treat as a pet" in the 1600s. By the 1800s this has evolved into "to stroke". That's apparently all there is to it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 13, 2012, 12:03:04 AM
Leaving aside the spelling of "bated breath", how accurate is this?
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/317913_370980812956181_246896466_n.jpg)

That is, do all those phrases truly have Shakespeare as their origin, or did he popularize and help preserve existing phrases? Or are some of these clearly from before his day and in common use after, and no reason to believe he had anything to do with it?

Setting teeth on edge come from Ezekiel, for instance. But what about the others?

(Original source: http://nawasaka.tumblr.com/post/10116519595/georgeyeahmoleskines-nawasaka-tumblr-com-i)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: fugu13 on July 13, 2012, 11:51:28 AM
I don't think we can really know in any particular case, but there's a lot of evidence he actively tried to coin new words and phrases, so I could definitely believe that he was the first to use a number of those.

For instance, there are a huge number of words that, as far as we know, Shakespeare was either the first to use or the first to use in a particular sense: http://thinkonmywords.com/additional/p161.html has a thorough breakdown of a good number of them. Now, a lot of them are variants on words already in use in other languages, but it's still pretty darn impressive, and a number of them are unusual portmanteaus he could well have coined.

And we do have a good number of written sources from around the time, including people who liked to use vernacular, so if a phrase were in common use before him, there's a decent chance we'd run into it.

So yeah, I'm pretty confident he's at the very least the person who introduced many of those phrases into widespread usage, and likely the very first user for a number of them.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on July 13, 2012, 04:46:19 PM
My children would like to know why "says" is not pronounced with a long "a".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on July 13, 2012, 05:15:13 PM
Sounds like an accent thing. We certainly use the long A sound in the words "say" and "saying".

But it drops off again with the word "said". How odd.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 13, 2012, 08:02:33 PM
I'll have to tackle the Shakespeare question later, but I agree with fugu. There's a good chance that he either coined or popularized many of those phrases, though of course there's always the chance that someone else used them first and we just don't have a record of it.

Here's the deal with says and said. Very common words tend to change their pronunciation faster than other words, so a word like say is more likely to change than a phonologically similar but less frequent word like pay. One of the main ways in which frequent words change is in reduction of vowels, which can mean shortening, laxing, and destressing. Said has a short, lax vowel, while say has a long, tense vowel (well, technically a diphthong, but that's irrelevant).

So why would said and says get reduced vowels while say and saying don't? Because they have coda consonants, and this makes them phonologically heavier. Originally they had the long, tense vowel plus the consonant at the end, which gives them the structure CVVC (consonant–long vowel–consonant) (because long vowels count for two). Normally this is fine, but super-frequent words don't like being so heavy, so they drop the extra vowel weight and become CVC. But say is just CVV, which isn't heavy enough to trigger reduction.

Does that make sense? More importantly, would that make sense to a six-year-old and a four-year-old? ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on July 13, 2012, 08:51:49 PM
I read up on Shakespeare and the Great Bible a few years ago.  Though few of those particular phrases sound biblical to my ear.  I can't remember how I got on the subject, if it started with criticisms I've heard about Joseph Smith plagiarizing Shakespeare or ended there. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Amilia on July 14, 2012, 10:42:59 AM
Re: Shakespeare.  Obligatory Horrible Histories link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zMR5k4RpwE).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on July 16, 2012, 05:44:50 PM
Does that make sense? More importantly, would that make sense to a six-year-old and a four-year-old? ;)

It seems to have satisfied them.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 16, 2012, 06:49:24 PM
No problem. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on August 01, 2012, 08:06:55 PM
When quoting a source, brackets are typically used to signal that the quotor has modified the original material.

But what if one is quoting a source that has itself quoted a source?  How do you eliminate ambiguity as to who added the brackets?  And then, what if the first quotor has already added brackets, and the second quotor wants to add its own too?

This isn't a purely academic question, since I'm asking this from the perspective of legal writing (where minutiæ like this might actually matter).

I think different color brackets would be a neat solution, especially when you got into levels of bracketing beyond two.  Unfortunately color printing availability and cost would be prohibitive.  Any other suggestions?  (At least for the two-level scenario?)  Perhaps a clumsy parenthetical sentence along the lines of (First brackets in initial quotation, second brackets added.) ?




  I used the -or suffix over the -er suffix because quote is of Latin origin.  I hope you're impressed.

  That reminds me—tomorrow at work I have to find this "awesome" case where the court decides that and means or.  Note to self.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 01, 2012, 08:15:03 PM
I don't know what is actually done in practice (I'm sure the Purdue OWL does, somewhere) but I imagine is has to do with different types of brackets. [..] {..} etc

In Japanese their quote marks look 「like this」. And then the quote within a quote looks 『like this』, which I always thought was cool.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 01, 2012, 08:35:52 PM
It's safe to assume that unless otherwise noted, brackets are the author's. If the quote already has brackets and you want to make it clear that they're not yours, you add a parenthetical note like "Brackets in original." For the scenario you're talking about, I think you're right that you'll have to come up with some awkward explanation of which ones are yours and which ones aren't. Or perhaps using different kind of brackets, as Annie says, would work, though you'll still need a note explaining which are which. There's really no good solution, but you're really just asking for trouble when you use a quote within a quote that already has brackets and then add your own brackets on top of it.

  I used the -or suffix over the -er suffix because quote is of Latin origin.  I hope you're impressed.

I am not. :p There are at least two sources of the suffix -er in English: Old English and Old French. So lots of words of Latin origin have a perfectly legitimate -er ending.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: The Genuine on August 01, 2012, 08:38:34 PM
So would you have used quotor or quoter, and why?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 01, 2012, 08:43:39 PM
Simple answer: quoter, because quoter is at least a semi-established English word and quotor is not (http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=quoter%2Cquotor&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 13, 2012, 12:19:17 PM
Why does MS Word spellcheck want to capitalize honorarium?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 13, 2012, 12:39:06 PM
I have no idea. What's the sentence in which it's used?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 13, 2012, 12:46:18 PM
Our organization gave B a check to cover C's honorarium for speaking at our organization.

Or something along those lines. (Sorry, the details have been coded to protect the innocent.  :p)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 13, 2012, 12:53:14 PM
I just pasted that sentence into a document in Word for Mac 2011, and it didn't try to capitalize it there. I'm befuddled.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 13, 2012, 12:58:25 PM
Me, too. I have an old version of MS Word (2004). Maybe that explains it.  ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 13, 2012, 03:48:02 PM
I've officially decided my spellcheck is screwy. It doesn't like "activities" either. It wants to correct it to "activity."

No. I mean more than one - plural - activities. Not activity.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 13, 2012, 06:18:18 PM
I think that Word's grammar checker is worthless, and it's spellchecker is mostly worthless.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 13, 2012, 09:31:45 PM
You won't find me disagreeing.

But those green and red squiggly lines on my documents-in-progress drive me crazy.  :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2012, 09:46:31 AM
That's why I turn them off. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 14, 2012, 09:52:05 AM
Hmm, I never looked to see if I could.

The spellcheck is sometimes useful but the grammar check is totally worthless, in my opinion. As you said previously. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2012, 09:57:14 AM
I'll admit that spellcheck is sometimes useful, though I often feel that its annoyances (flagging properly spelled words that aren't in its dictionary and so on) outweigh the benefits. I guess it depends largely on how good you are at catching your own spelling errors.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 14, 2012, 10:16:15 AM
Once again, I agree about the spellcheck flagging properly spelled words. I get a lot of that in my field, since spellcheck often doesn't recognize scientific/medical terms. Also, it flags proper names and abbreviations it doesn't recognize, which can get annoying. You can add words to the dictionary. ;)

It does sometimes catch an error I didn't see in my spelling (after looking at a document for the umpteenth time) so I like it for that.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2012, 10:24:36 AM
By the way, I'm not seriously arguing for you to just turn it off.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 14, 2012, 10:34:25 AM
Totally understood. :)

I actually never knew I could till you mentioned it.

MS Word has a lot of annoying features I can't figure out how to turn off, to be honest.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on August 14, 2012, 10:40:35 AM
On any computer I have used Word for a while (and thus have taught the checker most of the words it doesn't know), I find it more useful than not.

The first 6 months on a new computer or new install are a PITA, though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: SteveRogers on August 14, 2012, 11:34:52 AM
I'll admit that spellcheck is sometimes useful, though I often feel that its annoyances (flagging properly spelled words that aren't in its dictionary and so on) outweigh the benefits. I guess it depends largely on how good you are at catching your own spelling errors.

I just dislike when the spellcheck tries to correct me when I'm clearly making up words.  *shakes fist*  Spellcheck should be able to read my mind!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2012, 12:26:46 PM
Stupid non-mind-reading programs.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 16, 2012, 07:33:10 PM
On any computer I have used Word for a while (and thus have taught the checker most of the words it doesn't know), I find it more useful than not.

The first 6 months on a new computer or new install are a PITA, though.

Mmm, I love pitas.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 19, 2012, 11:13:18 PM
It depends on what one is writing.  If it's for work, I wouldn't recommend turning it off.  If I'm writing on my own, especially anything fiction, I would recommend turning it off. 

I don't like quoter or quotor.  I don't think colors is a good idea.  Too many things still happen in black and white. 

I also wouldn't call something parenthetical and not put it in parentheses.  I know, they make pills for people like me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 31, 2012, 04:20:02 PM
If you can say, "That affects my argument zero" or "I haven't changed my mind one iota." Why don't we say "That affected my argument three," and "My view changed a few iotas."?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 31, 2012, 07:22:04 PM
You're asking about negative polarity items (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarity_item). These are words or phrases that only occur in the context of a negative. (There are also some positive polarity items, as discussed in that Wikipedia page.) Some common ones in English are words or phrases like any or at all. You can say "I don't have any" or "I don't like it at all", or you can ask "Do you have any?" or "Do you like it at all?", but you can't say "I have any" or "I like it at all". It's basically just a type of grammatical agreement that goes along with the affirmative/negative polarity. For some reason, questions get lumped in with negatives. Don't ask me why.

It's interesting to note that in dialects that allow multiple negation, negative polarity items are often simple negatives. Thus you get "I don't have none" where Standard English has "I don't have any".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 13, 2012, 08:27:21 PM
Shouldn't the name of the letter ð be pronounced [ɛð] and not [ɛθ]? Drives me nuts.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 13, 2012, 09:34:40 PM
Um, it is.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on September 13, 2012, 11:33:32 PM
What he said.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 15, 2012, 01:17:07 AM
Wikipedia said otherwise.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 15, 2012, 08:50:17 AM
Are you referring to this?

Quote
In Icelandic, ð represents a voiced dental fricative like th in English "them", but it never appears as the first letter of a word. The name of the letter is pronounced [ɛθ], i.e., voiceless, unless followed by a vowel.

I think that's referring to the name of the letter in Icelandic.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 16, 2012, 06:57:35 AM
Ahhhhh!

Ok, everything is better.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on September 24, 2012, 11:30:31 AM
Is this a correct use of "whom"?

"That depends on whom you ask."

Doesn't sound right to me, but I have problems with who/whom.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 24, 2012, 11:34:01 AM
Yes, it's correct, but you're right that it sounds odd. "Whom" is the object of the verb "ask" (in non-question syntax, it's "you ask whom"). But it's a colloquial enough expression that using "whom" sounds kind of stilted.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on September 24, 2012, 11:35:14 AM
Does the answer mean you would use "who" instead of "whom" in this context?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 24, 2012, 11:49:56 AM
Yeah, I think so. It depends on how formal the rest of the writing is, but that one sentence doesn't sound very formal.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 24, 2012, 01:28:51 PM
I would make it "who" as well, unless it is meant to be formal. In which case I'd make the phrase "depends upon whom".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on September 24, 2012, 01:31:04 PM
Yeah, it's not formal. So I'm thinking "who" is better.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 05, 2012, 07:39:18 AM
Dear Expert,
Is it just me or is Speak Good English (http://www.goodenglish.org.sg/improve/commonly-mixed-up-words/whereby-in-which)'s description of this rule incorrect?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 05, 2012, 10:26:08 AM
They're right that "whereby" is the equivalent of "by which", not "in which", but their examples of how to use "whereby" are strange. "The rules whereby you must follow"? You don't follow by rules—you follow rules. But "the rules whereby you must abide" sounds fine to me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 05, 2012, 12:43:37 PM
What about "the rules whereby you must play"?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 05, 2012, 12:45:16 PM
It works, though it sounds pretty stilted to me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 14, 2012, 12:56:01 PM
Dear Expert,
Why do we prevaricate, but we cannot varicate after having prevaricated?

Inquiring minds want to know.
-BB
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 15, 2012, 09:21:57 PM
Prefixes and suffixes often have a more figurative meaning. In Latin prevaricari meant "to make a sham accusation, deviate (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=prevarication&allowed_in_frame=0)", from prae 'before' and varicare 'straddle'. I don't know how those pieces add up to get that meaning, but that's often how it is.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 15, 2012, 09:23:10 PM
Ah, I see. Thanks!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 17, 2012, 12:26:50 AM
Hey, what do we all think of the use of IPA to teach English pronunciation? A lot of textbooks in China do it. It's rather broad as far as transcription goes, and from what I can tell tends to favor British pronunciation to American, but it seems like a rather helpful thing overall, especially since huge proportions of English learners here will never meet a native English speaker, much less study with one.

Good idea/bad idea?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 17, 2012, 12:27:45 AM
I guess I shouldn't even specify a native speaker. Many students will never have a teacher that speaks English in class.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on October 17, 2012, 06:40:53 AM
I don't know why we wouldn't use the IPA to talk about pronunciation when teaching second/third/whatever languages.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2012, 10:35:54 AM
I think using IPA to teach pronunciation of a foreign language is great, but you have to give students some sort of crash course in it first.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 17, 2012, 08:27:43 PM
Yeah, that's actually what I was doing yesterday - I'm still trying to figure out the best approach. My husband's Chinese tutor is a student here studying International Relations and he never learned IPA so he asked me if I could teach him. So I spent the day trying to put together a simplified worksheet version and then had to decide how broad/narrow to be (I looked at an English-Chinese dictionary and followed their example for most of it). It was actually a really tricky endeavor. I ended up giving him two versions - one for American English and one for Australian. American because that's what all his classmates here are and he can ask them for pronunciation examples, and Australian because he's filling out a grant to go study there. The most refreshing part of the whole project was finally understanding what on earth Aussies are actually saying when they pronounce "no." (It's /nəʉ/, if you were wondering.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2012, 09:15:29 PM
The most refreshing part of the whole project was finally understanding what on earth Aussies are actually saying when they pronounce "no." (It's /nəʉ/, if you were wondering.)

I learned that a while back. It's quite enlightening to see it phonetically.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on October 19, 2012, 02:24:56 PM
Well, the trouble is whether the phonemic structure of English is being reflected, as opposed to phonetic description.     
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 19, 2012, 04:11:56 PM
I'm not really sure what you mean, but that's a phonetic description.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on October 26, 2012, 12:53:26 PM
There are phonemic structures that are tranformed through dialect rules to produce phonetic products.  So IPA should be used on that level, not to produce a precise description of the instructors accent.  Most literate people do this somewhat automatically.  There's a scene in "driving miss daisy" where a southern person is trying to explain the concept of reading using a headstone that has the name Bauer on it.  And they're saying BAHWAH.  And somehow, amazingly, the illiterate person knows it's an "Ahra" on the end of the word.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on December 11, 2012, 09:42:04 AM
So how is it that the word "second" came to mean a measure of time, but when counting rank order, as in "first, second" it also denotes position number two?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 11, 2012, 10:41:56 AM
I answered a few years ago when Porter asked the same thing (http://galacticcactus.com/forums/index.php?topic=1297.msg63886#msg63886). It comes from a Latin and French word meaning following, making it related to words like sequel, sequence, and segue. In Latin it came to mean the one that followed the first. In Medieval Latin, pars minuta prima was used to mean the first small division of an hour (the modern-day minute), and pars minuta secunda was used to mean the second small division (the modern-day second). The first was shortened to minute and the second to second. So it's really just a historical accident that a word meaning 'small' came to mean 1/60th of an hour while a word meaning 'second' came to mean 1/3600th of an hour.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on December 11, 2012, 01:02:02 PM
Ah, I see. That is interesting.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on December 11, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
1/3600.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 11, 2012, 01:17:22 PM
Whoops! That's what I meant.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on December 11, 2012, 01:20:16 PM
Yeah it took me a minute to figure out why it looked wrong to me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on December 13, 2012, 01:07:01 AM
Does the word "potential" automatically equate to future possibility? Does the phrase "future possibility" sound dumb? I'm using both in this paragraph and can't seem to make it sound right:

Quote
The present study seeks to thoroughly explicate the principles comprised in these Mastery Learning approaches and to trace them through their trial by research, their successes and failures according to meta-analytic reviews, and their persistence into modern instructional practice, whether or not they are presently recognized as formal implementations of Mastery Learning theory. Furthermore, we hope to project these principles into future possibilities and determine what their potential to improve teaching and learning might be.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 13, 2012, 09:51:47 AM
I don't think it automatically means future possibility. Something potential could also be something that could be but isn't. Personally, I think it sounds fine.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on December 13, 2012, 10:16:52 AM
Personally, I think it sounds fine.
I agree.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on December 16, 2012, 06:45:47 PM
Ok, another question but this one is just because I can't make sense of the principle in my own mind. I am editing an academic paper for a lady here (a non-native English speaker), and am trying to make a couple helpful notes for her future writing.

She kept using the wording "content of lycopene" and "content of beta-carotene" and I repeatedly changed them to "lycopene content" and "beta-carotene content." I was going to try to write up an explanation of how we can easily do that with anything - oxygen content, water content, etc. But then in a future sentence, she wrote about the "low oxygen amount" and I changed it to "low amount of oxygen."

Can you think of a clear reason why "oxygen content" sounds good but "oxygen amount" sounds awkward?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on December 17, 2012, 08:08:43 AM
Content means the quantity of a substance within another measure.  Amount can mean a freestanding quantity.  And some things sound less awkward because they just are.  That is why you want a native speaker to go over something.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 17, 2012, 08:39:01 AM
And some things sound less awkward because they just are.

I can't come up with an explanation better than this. Sometimes things sound awkward just because they don't occur, and they don't occur because they sound awkward. Maybe there's some sort of semantic motivation here, but I can't see what it is. Maybe I'm just too tired to see it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on January 15, 2013, 11:54:42 AM
Dear expert, please help settle a disagreement.

Is the punctuation better in "Hey honey, how are you?" or "Hey, honey, how are you?"

Likewise, would "Hey, hon," or "Hey hon," be better ways to start an email? 

Rationale would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 15, 2013, 12:53:04 PM
There are two applicable rules here: names or terms of direct address are set off with commas (as in "You know, Dana, that's a good question."). Interjections like "hey" are also typically set off with commas. The first would require a comma before "honey" or "hon", and the second would require one after "hey". If you left out "honey", you'd still write "Hey, how are you?" If you left out "hey" (and moved "honey" somewhere else so that you could have a comma before it), you'd have "How are you, honey?" Either way, you end up with a comma after "hey" and before "honey".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 15, 2013, 01:29:28 PM
From a word I keep hearing in the news: why is "magazine", that thing you read in the waiting room, the same word as "magazine", that thing that holds the gun bullets?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 15, 2013, 01:46:28 PM
Etymonline.com (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=magazine&allowed_in_frame=0) has a pretty good explanation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on January 15, 2013, 06:59:18 PM
From a word I keep hearing in the news: why is "magazine", that thing you read in the waiting room, the same word as "magazine", that thing that holds the gun bullets?
It's also sometimes used to describe a place where things are stored. Such as powder magazines during the Civil War and earlier. Which of course Jon Boy's link mentions.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on January 16, 2013, 05:01:04 AM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 16, 2013, 10:03:50 AM
So out of curiosity, which side of the argument were you on? ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on January 16, 2013, 07:32:32 PM
I was actually an innocent bystander who was asked to give an opinion and wasn't sure.  If it were only the second example I'd have been confident (and right) but the "Hey, hon," as a way of starting an email threw me.  I think if I ever were to start an email that way I probably would have omitted the first comma.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on January 23, 2013, 02:59:08 PM
I would have started singing "when Reginald was home with flu..."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on February 14, 2013, 06:43:03 AM
I was wondering the other day about Indo-European words for mother and father.

In Latin, mater and pater have the same initial vowel sound. In French, Spanish and Italian they all retain matching sounds, though in French the /a/ became /ɛ/. But in English, mother and father don't have matching vowels anymore, and I was wondering if this happened just to English but realized that German is Mutter and Vater. Any idea whether those vowels would have changed after Germanic languages broke off and why?

Also, most European languages use variations on mama and papa. Where the heck did dad come from?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 14, 2013, 08:31:59 AM
Baby talk. "da-da" is one of the first sounds babies make. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 14, 2013, 08:55:09 AM
Since English and Farsi both have roots in Indo-European languages, they share some common words.

In Farsi, Pedär is formal and respectful word for father. Baba is the informal word for dad. Same deal for mom.

Mother = Maadar - مادر
or
Mum/Mom = Maamaan - مامان
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 14, 2013, 10:37:52 AM
I know I've posted about this before, but the forum search is failing me. I'll try to post a longer answer later, but here it is in a nutshell: the differing modern vowels come from the different PIE vowels in *pətḗ(r) and *mātér. In Latin these vowels apparently both became /a/, but in Germanic languages they went different ways. I think PIE /a:/ usually rose in Germanic languages, but I don't know all the details.

I came across a fascinating paper once that explained how baby talk actually creates familiar terms for "mother" and "father". "Papa" and "dada" have no etymological connection to other words for "father"; babies makes them up, and we take them to be meaningful and then expect later generations of babies to use those terms.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 14, 2013, 10:41:59 AM
I came across a fascinating paper once that explained how baby talk actually creates familiar terms for "mother" and "father". "Papa" and "dada" have no etymological connection to other words for "father"; babies makes them up, and we take them to be meaningful and then expect later generations of babies to use those terms.
I remember that. You either linked to it or sent it to me, IIRC.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 14, 2013, 10:46:41 AM
This is not the one I was thinking of, but it's clearly considered a classic: http://www.scribd.com/doc/54278465/13/WHY-MAMA-AND-PAPA
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 14, 2013, 11:36:45 AM
That's not the one I remember either.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 14, 2013, 11:39:33 AM
Here's the discussion (http://galacticcactus.com/forums/index.php?topic=2578.msg118646#msg118646). It was goofy, not me, that linked to it. The orignal link is broken, but this (https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=where-do-mama2.pdf&site=1) appears to be the same paper.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 14, 2013, 11:55:43 AM
That link won't work for me, but I think this one might be functional: www.sussex.ac.uk/english/documents/where-do-mama2.pdf

I'm not sure if that's the one I was thinking of. Possibly. Or I've conflated more than one source in my memory.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 14, 2013, 11:57:36 AM
Weird. That's goofy's original link, which didn't work for me a minute ago. Now both links are going to the same place.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 14, 2013, 12:11:10 PM
How bizarre.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 14, 2013, 01:43:23 PM
So even babies have some pull as far as language goes?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 14, 2013, 01:59:16 PM
Yup, though infants' contributions are probably mostly limited to words like "mama" and "dada".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 16, 2013, 11:13:06 AM
Is it true that the phrase "capital" as in "capital crimes" is derived from Latin, and meaning that a crime was seriousness enough to warrant the forfeiture of one's head, hence capital?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 16, 2013, 11:36:48 AM
So it would seem (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=capital&allowed_in_frame=0).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 24, 2013, 07:12:18 AM
So in a show Tristan was watching, they were reading The Swiss Family Robinson. They said the following sentence,

"The Swiss Family Robinson was sailing in a boat."

Shouldn't it be "The Swiss Family Robins were sailing in a boat"? (An aside, should the preceding question mark be in the quotation marks)?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 24, 2013, 09:47:21 AM
"Was" is correct, as the singular noun (family) refers to the entire group. But is still singular.

And the question mark only goes inside the quotation marks when it is part of the quote. So no. But it should have been inside the parentheses.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 24, 2013, 01:49:38 PM
"Was" is grammatically correct, since "family" is a singular noun, as Rivka said. But plural verbs are fairly common (especially in Britain, I believe), and it's especially common to refer to "family" with the plural pronoun "they".

Rivka's also right about the question marks. In the first you're questioning a quote, not quoting a question. In the second the whole parenthetical sentence is a question. Generally, punctuation only goes inside quotation marks if it's part of the quotation, but in American practice periods and commas always go inside, whether or not they're part of the quotation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 24, 2013, 02:52:00 PM
but in American practice periods and commas always go inside, whether or not they're part of the quotation.
Except for those of us who have rebelled against such insanity. Join us!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 24, 2013, 02:57:54 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 25, 2013, 07:25:26 AM
but in American practice periods and commas always go inside, whether or not they're part of the quotation.
Except for those of us who have rebelled against such insanity. Join us!

Shvester!  I consider myself to be a conscientious objector.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 26, 2013, 12:02:08 PM
I wonder how long it'll be before the logical method becomes common in edited text. Publishers and style guides are holding firm for now, even though it's pretty common in educated usage.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 28, 2013, 11:50:18 AM
Plan, plot, ploy. These words all mean similar things, are they all descended from the same word? Plot and ploy seem to mean plans where you are not up front with people that you have them. Plan can kinda go either way.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on February 28, 2013, 05:25:11 PM
They're all from the Proto Indo-European root /*pl*ēu/, which means "This is a serious step. I want you to go over by that trampoline and talk about it first."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on February 28, 2013, 06:51:22 PM
Plan can kinda go either way.

That's why I always use adjectives like "nefarious" with the word "plan".  It clears that ambiguity right up.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 02, 2013, 07:15:08 PM
Plan, plot, ploy. These words all mean similar things, are they all descended from the same word? Plot and ploy seem to mean plans where you are not up front with people that you have them. Plan can kinda go either way.

Plan is from the Latin planus, meaning a flat surface (same root as plane). It came to mean a drawing or diagram, and from thence to the act of creating a diagram.

Plot is from Old English but has an ultimately unknown origin. It originally meant a piece of ground but then came to mean a ground plan or chart, much like plan.

Ploy is from a Scottish or northern English dialect word of unknown origin.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 03, 2013, 08:06:01 AM
Does ploy have no relation to "employ" then?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 03, 2013, 11:52:09 AM
Etymonline.com says it's possibly a shortened form of employ or deploy.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 03, 2013, 01:05:40 PM
The iPad always puts a period after quotation marks.  It really infuriates me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 03, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
Dear Expert,

1: We are experiencing an unusually large number of logins.

2: We are experiencing an unusual large number of logins.

Which one of those works best. Would either be acceptable?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 03, 2013, 02:27:31 PM
"Unusually" modifies the adjective "large", so it must be an adverb. "Unusual" is an adjective, not an adverb.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 03, 2013, 02:53:12 PM
Rivka's right.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 03, 2013, 03:15:12 PM
OK, so the first but not the second.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 03, 2013, 03:22:27 PM
Yup.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 03, 2013, 07:09:21 PM
I believe "hella" would work in place of "unusually," though.

Glad I could help.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 11, 2013, 10:23:26 PM
Could it be "unusual, large number of logins."  Though for that to be correct, the number would have to be in some way unusual.  Like 666.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 12, 2013, 10:29:14 AM
Or Avogadro's Number (http://people.switchboard.com/results.php?ReportType=34&refer=8433&adword=SWITCHBOARD.COM&qi=0&qk=10&qn=Avogadro).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 25, 2013, 02:21:51 PM
I just read an article (http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/2047-americans-brits-accents.html) that indicates that Americans and Brits spoke identically in the 1700's, but that the British accent has drifted considerably in the last two centuries, while the American accent is closer to the way the English spoke then.

I feel like the author may be overstating their case. I mean, I guess they are right about rhotic and non-rhotic stuff. But how much of our accent is really comprised of that one thing?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 25, 2013, 02:32:40 PM
It's really just one aspect of English phonology, and phonology is just one aspect of language. In some ways American English is closer to British English of the 1700s; in other ways modern-day British English is closer. It's also important to point out that even in the 1700s, English was not some unitary thing—there were (and still are) all kinds of dialects with quite a bit of variation. Many of those who came to America (for instance, the Scotch-Irish) had accents different from those found among Londoners at the time, so even early on there were probably differences between American and British English. At any rate, I think you're right that they're making too much of one feature, and while it may be true that American English today is closer to 1700s English than British English today is, I think it's difficult to quantify such things.

If you want a good idea of what English sounded like in Shakespeare's day, for example (which is a little earlier than what we're talking about), check out this site (http://www.pronouncingshakespeare.com/op-recordings/).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 25, 2013, 03:48:23 PM
Fascinating! How many syllables did "marriage" have? I lost count. ;) And "ee" (sweet, cheeks) was an "ay".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 25, 2013, 06:24:05 PM
That link was fascinating! Thanks!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on April 15, 2013, 06:17:19 PM
"Would you take out the garbage please?"

"Please take out the garbage."

Are both of those correct? I keep getting the impression 'please' often makes statements into questions. Since you are essentially asking, "If you please" when you say 'please.'
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on April 16, 2013, 12:58:26 AM
For the first, I'd put a comma before please.  Then again, I've been known to be profligate with my commas.  I learned in the First Grade that things like "Please copy these spelling words into your notebooks" and "I would like you to take out your math workbooks" does not make the statements optional.  They are just as imperative as "You'd better copy these spelling words into your notebooks, or I'm going to call your parents in for a conference to discuss why you are not doing your schoolwork, young lady."  Ma explained that part to me, and I took the lesson to heart.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 16, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
Why wouldn't they both be correct? One's a question, and one's a command, but they both effectively mean the same thing. Adding "please" doesn't make a command into a question.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on April 16, 2013, 03:50:26 PM
Why wouldn't they both be correct? One's a question, and one's a command, but they both effectively mean the same thing. Adding "please" doesn't make a command into a question.
So how about, "If it pleases you, I'd like to ask you something."?

Although it's a statement,  isn't there an implied question?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 16, 2013, 05:05:25 PM
It depends on what you mean by "implied", but I'd say no. It's a conditional and a regular declarative statement. I'm not sure what the notion of an implied question has to do with correctness, though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on April 16, 2013, 05:22:05 PM
It depends on what you mean by "implied", but I'd say no. It's a conditional and a regular declarative statement. I'm not sure what the notion of an implied question has to do with correctness, though.
I just have this nagging feeling that 'please' used to always making a sentence a question, but it's not used that way anymore. But thanks for your answers. You too Tante.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 16, 2013, 07:05:48 PM
I just have this nagging feeling that 'please' used to always making a sentence a question, but it's not used that way anymore.

Nope. It just comes from the verb please and was used in constructions like "if it pleases you" or the older "if (it) you please" before being shortened to just "please".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on April 16, 2013, 08:33:09 PM
I just have this nagging feeling that 'please' used to always making a sentence a question, but it's not used that way anymore.

Nope. It just comes from the verb please and was used in constructions like "if it pleases you" or the older "if (it) you please" before being shortened to just "please".
Right, but the "If you please" part is essentially asking a yes or no question.

"It pleases me not."

"It pleases me."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 16, 2013, 09:57:26 PM
I suppose it's implied, though it's not grammatically a direct or an indirect question. But why would that make you worry about whether it's correct?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on April 17, 2013, 06:07:09 PM
I suppose it's implied, though it's not grammatically a direct or an indirect question. But why would that make you worry about whether it's correct?
Because when I write and use that word, I keep getting a nagging feeling I'm doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 17, 2013, 09:32:30 PM
Okay. I don't think you have any reason to worry.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on April 23, 2013, 06:56:36 PM
Yesterday I was in the waiting room of a clinic, and was shamelessly eavesdropping on the conversation of the couple that was sitting next to me. They were both elderly, and from their accents I'd guess they were probably from the backwoods of Kentucky. The woman was worrying that the previous night's frost had killed the blossoms on their pear tree, and her husband pointed out that it didn't make any difference, since the deer would just eat the pears once they got to a certain size. The woman laughed and told him that he just needed to set up a lawn chair for himself and sit out there shooing them off all day. Then she said (and this is why I'm telling this here instead of the People thread on sake) "That's you a job," meaning "that's a job for you," said in a way that indicated that she was jokingly assigning him the task. Have you ever heard of a construction like that? I was pretty taken with it (and with them, really. They were pretty charming. The pear comment was the only thing that the guy said that wasn't "Well, I don't rightly know," "Well, that could be, but I really can't say," or "I could believe that, but I don't know it."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 23, 2013, 07:16:38 PM
Here's you a post on the subject (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/02/21/heres-you-a-benefactive-dative/).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on April 23, 2013, 07:26:05 PM
How cool is it that you've actually written a post about precisely that obscure turn of phrase? 11.

Interesting post, too.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 23, 2013, 07:32:56 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on May 03, 2013, 02:18:51 PM
I just have this nagging feeling that 'please' used to always making a sentence a question, but it's not used that way anymore.

Nope. It just comes from the verb please and was used in constructions like "if it pleases you" or the older "if (it) you please" before being shortened to just "please".
Right, but the "If you please" part is essentially asking a yes or no question.

"It pleases me not."

"It pleases me."
Not really.

Try substituting "if you please" with equivalent phrases like "If you want to" or "if you're willing", and it's obvious.

"Get in the car, if you want to live."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 24, 2013, 11:40:02 AM
Dear Expert:

The Boy Scout Oath was adopted in 1911:
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight
.

In 1911, did "straight" have the same meaning as it does today vis a vis heterosexuality?  When did "straight" come to be synonymous with heterosexual?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 24, 2013, 12:26:07 PM
The OED dates it to 1941.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 24, 2013, 02:07:51 PM
Thanks, expert!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 24, 2013, 02:14:02 PM
You're welcome!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on May 24, 2013, 02:22:08 PM
Dear expert,

"Myriad different forms."

Or,

"A myriad of different forms."?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 24, 2013, 02:28:54 PM
Either. There's a good usage note here (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myriad).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on May 24, 2013, 03:02:50 PM
Interesting. I was always told only to use the first one. But today I watched Walking With Dinosaurs with Tristan, and the narrator used the second form. While the BBC isn't infallible, they usually wouldn't get something like that wrong, so I asked.

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 24, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
While the BBC isn't infallible, they usually wouldn't get something like that wrong, so I asked.

People get things "wrong" according to the rules quite often, because the rules are often inventions that contradict actual usage. Also, there are a lot of rules that Americans have latched onto that Britons don't know or care about.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on May 24, 2013, 04:57:09 PM
OK.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 24, 2013, 05:04:15 PM
Also, there are a lot of rules that Americans have latched onto that Britons don't know or care about.
One assumes the reverse is true as well, though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 24, 2013, 05:12:15 PM
Not as far as I can tell. They seem to care more about regional dialects and class distinctions. I think Americans latch on to the rules because we don't have as much of the other stuff.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on May 24, 2013, 06:29:35 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on May 29, 2013, 01:07:47 PM
I heard something hysterical on the radio the other day i was going to post in overheard but I forgot what it was.  It was an unintentional vulgarity.  Probably got displaced by the speaker in church who I'm pretty sure said g.d. after some other slip of the tongue. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on June 02, 2013, 09:18:28 AM
I always forget that this half of the forum exists. 

So, linguistics gurus, I have a question:  is it more correct to say "for forever" or just "forever".  eg: "I would feel that lifting of the weight of school I get at the end of every year, but multiplied several times as I realized that I wasn't just done for the year, I was done [for?] forever!"
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 02, 2013, 10:39:46 AM
Just forever, not for forever, because that's repetitively redundant.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 02, 2013, 08:16:34 PM
"For forever" sounds kind of awkward at best. Strictly speaking, there's nothing grammatically wrong with it, since "forever" can be a noun; I think it's just a problem of how it sounds. Consider that in COCA (http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/) there are nearly 20,000 hits for "forever", but the string "for forever" appears only 24 times, and most of those are in speech or in dialogue in fiction works.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on June 12, 2013, 08:09:43 AM
See? I completely forgot I even posted on this half of the forum!  Anyway, thanks very much! :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on July 31, 2013, 07:02:09 AM
Okay, I see different variations of this all the time, and I realized I don't know which is actually correct. Is it:

if worse comes to worst
if worst comes to worst
if worse comes to worse

?

My gut says the first one.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 31, 2013, 09:33:29 AM
So does mine, but apparently that's not the most common version historically.

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/9141/worse-comes-to-worst-or-worst-comes-to-worst
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/magazine/06FOB-onlanguage-t.html?_r=0
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on July 31, 2013, 10:09:52 AM
I think it's the last one.  But I will now read rivka's link to find out if I'm right.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on July 31, 2013, 10:13:00 AM
Wait, I might have meant the second one.

<saying it over and over>  Yeah, I meant the second one. Now I will read the link.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 02, 2013, 11:09:49 AM
I've always said, "Worse comes to worst."

I always felt it meant, "Should the situation get worse, and on a sliding scale of worse it makes it all the way to the other side (worst) then we will do the following."

I don't see how "worst comes to worst" makes any sense.

Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 05, 2013, 11:57:25 AM
Am I using comprise ok here? Is there a better word?

Quote
The teaching of English as a foreign language (EFL) in East Asia is a widespread and complex effort, comprising a variety of motivations, goals and approaches.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 05, 2013, 12:42:40 PM
Yes, that's right. "Embracing" or "including" would also work, I think.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 05, 2013, 02:20:19 PM
"Worse comes to worst" would be my preference.  Because it's a comparative bad becoming a superlative bad.

I don't quite like comprising in that context, since for me a list comprising a thing should be exhaustive.  I'll go see if there's any justification for that.  

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comprise
I don't know, if you want to defend the "compose" sense of comprise, you might want to use a cite from someone other than Jimmy Carter.  I know he was a very intelligent man, but he also said "nucular".  He cultivated a southern, rural persona.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 08, 2013, 10:01:49 AM
Okay, I see different variations of this all the time, and I realized I don't know which is actually correct. Is it:

if worse comes to worst
if worst comes to worst
if worse comes to worse

?

My gut says the first one.

A lot of people's guts say the first one, because it sounds like a situation moving from bad to worse. I still don't quite understand the logic or syntax of the original, but apparently it was "if the worst come to the worst", meaning essentially, "if the worst should come to pass". Ben Zimmer wrote about it in the NY Times "On Language" column a couple years back: link (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/magazine/06FOB-onlanguage-t.html).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 08, 2013, 03:05:43 PM
I guess I'm the only weirdo who was totally sure it was "worse comes to worse."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 08, 2013, 03:14:21 PM
Yes. We shall now shun you.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 08, 2013, 04:43:01 PM
Or worse comes to worst we'll kill you. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 08, 2013, 09:18:21 PM
I guess I'm the only weirdo who was totally sure it was "worse comes to worse."

Shvester!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on August 08, 2013, 10:58:56 PM
My invisibility cloak is working!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 25, 2013, 11:39:05 AM
So I was in a class and we were putting together an email. The writer started double spacing after a period, and I pointed out that that was not necessary, as we no longer use typewriters, so single space is now standard. This other guy in class told me I was wrong, and in fact double spacing is proper.

Later, in the same email, the writer wrote a sentence with the word "and" in the middle, and I felt like a comma would be appropriate. The same other person responded that a comma was not necessary before "and", and then went on to say I really don't know anything about writing. We'll ignore the cheekiness, as well as the single space rule. But are there circumstance where "and" does not have to be preceded by a comma? I feel like maybe you have already addressed this.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on August 25, 2013, 12:28:18 PM
Keep fighting the good fight! Proper use of the serial comma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma) is a sign of intelligence and good breeding. Then again, it makes sense that a double-spacing throwback would also ignore the necessity for a serial comma.

Both are style choices. Does your school have its own official style guide? Many do. Or perhaps it follows the APA or another published guide? Either way, if your school has an official policy, you should be following it for these sorts of things.

Links in favor of using the serial comma:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/serial-comma?page=all
http://grammar.about.com/od/grammarfaq/f/QAoxfordcomma.htm
http://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-rationale-for-the-serial-comma/
http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/052709serialcomma.htm
http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/04/using-serial-commas.html
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on August 25, 2013, 01:08:24 PM
But are there circumstance where "and" does not have to be preceded by a comma? I feel like maybe you have already addressed this.

Are you talking about a list of things, in which case rivka is right on about the serial comma, or some other type of sentence? There are certainly circumstances where "and" doesn't have to be proceeded by a comma. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 25, 2013, 01:13:00 PM
No I definitely believe in the serial comma.

I can't remember the words we were considering verbatim, but I'll try to approximate them.

"I am an MBA candidate at Harvard University, and would like to request your help on a project I am heading."

"I am an MBA candidate, and would like to request your help on a project I am heading."

"I am an MBA candidate, and graduate of Harvard University, which is why I am writing you."

I feel like all three need a comma before "and". But I'm actually having a hard time coming up with any sentence where a comma would be not necessary or even wrong before "and".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on August 25, 2013, 02:12:52 PM
I don't think any of those three especially need commas.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on August 25, 2013, 02:38:28 PM
I would take out all three of those commas.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 25, 2013, 02:43:01 PM
Hmmmm. Maybe I use too many commas then.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 25, 2013, 03:42:41 PM
You should have a comma before "and" if it's joining two independent clauses (clauses that each have a subject and verb). Those all have one subject and two verbs, so most style guides would say they shouldn't have a comma.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 25, 2013, 04:24:33 PM
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 25, 2013, 04:52:43 PM
So I was in a class and we were putting together an email. The writer started double spacing after a period, and I pointed out that that was not necessary, as we no longer use typewriters, so single space is now standard. This other guy in class told me I was wrong, and in fact double spacing is proper.

Later, in the same email, the writer wrote a sentence with the word "and" in the middle, and I felt like a comma would be appropriate. The same other person responded that a comma was not necessary before "and", and then went on to say I really don't know anything about writing. We'll ignore the cheekiness, as well as the single space rule. But are there circumstance where "and" does not have to be preceded by a comma? I feel like maybe you have already addressed this.

If you can pardon the slight language, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_i1xk07o4g) should solve all your questions rather well. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Amilia on September 03, 2013, 09:14:32 PM
Are Japan and Nippon different names for the same place, or are they just different transliterations of the same name?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on September 03, 2013, 09:34:31 PM
Are Japan and Nippon different names for the same place, or are they just different transliterations of the same name?
Japan is what the early Dutch traders called Japan based on what they heard other people in South East Asia calling it. Nippon is the Japanese word for Japan.

edit: It's a similar story for China. Nobody in China calls it that in Chinese.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Amilia on September 03, 2013, 10:02:15 PM
Interesting!  They were similar enough, yet different enough, that I thought it could go either way.  And it's been bugging me.  Thank you.

I understand we did that with American Indian tribe names as well--called them by what their neighbors/enemies called them rather than what they call themselves.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 05, 2013, 04:39:39 PM
Well, Nippon is an older pronunciation in Japanese. The current one you'll hear is Nihon.

Really, though, it's the same word either way. The Chinese characters used to write the names in both Chinese and Japanese are the same - 日本. There's actually some sound similarity in some varieties of Chinese with our European variations on "Japan." The modern Mandarin pronunciation is /ɻɨpən/ or /ʐɨpən/. Older pronunciations are what the Europeans interpreted as "Japan."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 09, 2013, 03:11:41 PM
In a discussion with my son, when he was politely disagreeing with me, he kept saying "Be that as it may . . ."

Be.  That.  As.  It.  May.

Expert, how would you diagram that?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 10, 2013, 08:39:56 AM
Another question: Curriculum Vitae or Curriculum Vita? Why do I see both? I feel like "vitae" is probably plural but in that case why is it used?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 10, 2013, 08:56:04 AM
I see "vitae" a lot more.  I don't remember seeing "vita".  I don't know why.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 10, 2013, 08:57:45 AM
For some reason all the professors in my department write "vita" on theirs.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 10, 2013, 09:19:26 AM
Another question: Curriculum Vitae or Curriculum Vita? Why do I see both? I feel like "vitae" is probably plural but in that case why is it used?

Traditionally, it's curriculum vitae. Vitae is a genitive singular, and the phrase translates to "life's course". Vita is the nominative singular (I think), which is grammatically incorrect, at least according to Latin. I don't know why you see both.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 10, 2013, 09:35:14 AM
Huh. I wonder if someone thought it was plural and was like "Hey, curriculum is singular, this should be too."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 10, 2013, 10:59:48 AM
Could be. I bet "curriculum vitae" was misapprehended as a plural, since vitae can also be the nominative plural form.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 10, 2013, 11:20:52 AM
In a discussion with my son, when he was politely disagreeing with me, he kept saying "Be that as it may . . ."

Be.  That.  As.  It.  May.

Expert, how would you diagram that?

Do you actually want a diagram, or just an explanation?

It's an archaic subjunctive use of be with subject-auxiliary inversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject%E2%80%93auxiliary_inversion) instead of the normal word order. (We can still do this with some subjunctives today, as in "Were I there" instead of "If I were there".) In modern English, we'd use "That may be" instead of "be that". The subordinate clause "as it may" also shows ellipsis; the full form would be "as it may be". So translated into modern English and expanded, it would read, "That may be as it may be", which is really just a wordy way to say "That may be."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 12, 2013, 08:45:24 AM
Thank you for the explanation.  I don't need a whole diagram.  Although I'm willing to lay a bet that if I told my son that his usage is archaic, he'd reply, "Methinks thou doth protest too much", because he's hilarious that way.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on September 21, 2013, 11:31:38 AM
Dear Expert,

"The United States was founded in 1776."

"The United States was founded on July 4th 1776."

"The United States was founded on 1776."

"The United States was founded in July 4th 1776."

What gives?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 21, 2013, 02:33:46 PM
I read a great post once (maybe on Language Log?) about the spatial semantics of dates and prepositions. Years and months are like containers (3D) and take in; days are like planes (2D) and take on; and times of day are like points (1D) and take at. There's no real reason why; that's just the way we think about time, apparently.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on September 21, 2013, 05:16:07 PM
Interesting! I guess you'd also say, "The United States was founded in the 18th century."

So we all just naturally started doing it that way?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on September 22, 2013, 11:40:06 AM
Is this true in other languages or just English?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 22, 2013, 04:49:14 PM
Interesting! I guess you'd also say, "The United States was founded in the 18th century."

Yup.

Quote
So we all just naturally started doing it that way?

More or less. It could be that there's some natural metaphor that pulled us in that direction. I'm not sure. I really wish I could find the discussion I'm thinking of.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 22, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
Is this true in other languages or just English?

I'm not sure. I wouldn't be surprised if it's common. I think it may be true of the other languages I've studied, but they're closely related to English anyway, so that might not mean much.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 23, 2013, 03:28:40 PM
Chinese uses no prepositions for dates and times.

Japanese uses the particle "ni" for specific points in time. (It's the same particle that means, "in," "at," and "to" in other contexts). You use it in phrases like "I'm leaving AT 8:00" or "I was born ON June 1st" or "He died IN 1980." But you wouldn't use any particle to say things like "tomorrow," "today," "this year," etc.

So there's your input from some non Indo-European languages.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2013, 03:51:43 PM
Good to know. Thanks, Annie.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on September 23, 2013, 04:24:01 PM
Sorry I should have said something earlier, but I felt like my inability to think of a word other than 在 "at" in Chinese was indicative of my being too tired or just plain ignorance of Chinese, not a limitation in the language.

But Annie is right as far as I know.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2013, 06:19:23 PM
Sorry I should have said something earlier . . .

Apology not accepted!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on September 23, 2013, 07:12:28 PM
Fine. It will just stay in my account, gaining interest. Better apology later!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2013, 07:23:58 PM
I look forward to it!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 23, 2013, 08:24:16 PM
Sorry I should have said something earlier, but I felt like my inability to think of a word other than 在 "at" in Chinese was indicative of my being too tired or just plain ignorance of Chinese, not a limitation in the language.

But Annie is right as far as I know.

It's not your fault. It's Chinese's fault for being so weird and just leaving out so many linguistic features the rest of us spend so much time and effort on.

Of course, to make up for it, they write words with 5,000 little pictures.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 24, 2013, 11:42:59 AM
In Hebrew and Yiddish, in and on are not distinct/separate as they are in English.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dobie on September 24, 2013, 03:32:16 PM
Chinese uses no prepositions for dates and times.

Japanese uses the particle "ni" for specific points in time. (It's the same particle that means, "in," "at," and "to" in other contexts). You use it in phrases like "I'm leaving AT 8:00" or "I was born ON June 1st" or "He died IN 1980." But you wouldn't use any particle to say things like "tomorrow," "today," "this year," etc.

So there's your input from some non Indo-European languages.

So if a samurai tells you the time does that make him one of them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQfGd3G6dg)?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 24, 2013, 03:58:07 PM
Chinese uses no prepositions for dates and times.

Japanese uses the particle "ni" for specific points in time. (It's the same particle that means, "in," "at," and "to" in other contexts). You use it in phrases like "I'm leaving AT 8:00" or "I was born ON June 1st" or "He died IN 1980." But you wouldn't use any particle to say things like "tomorrow," "today," "this year," etc.

So there's your input from some non Indo-European languages.

So if a samurai tells you the time does that make him one of them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQfGd3G6dg)?

How did I know that joke was coming?

Yes, yes it does. It also includes all Chinese people ever, for whom ni is the second-person pronoun.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dobie on September 24, 2013, 04:01:19 PM
I never knew all Chinese people had knighthoods.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 24, 2013, 07:14:24 PM
(http://www.promoboxx.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//2012/10/the_more_you_know.jpeg)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dobie on September 26, 2013, 01:11:25 PM
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/204031/the-more-you-know-o.gif)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 11, 2013, 03:39:50 PM
You know how right can mean both the relative direction and also something that you're entitled to? I had the mind-blowing realization while trying to get to sleep that this same pair exists in both French and Spanish, though it doesn't seem that the words are related at all to the English right. (They're droit/droit and derecho/derecho). Why would the words mean both distinct things in all three languages if the words don't seem to be related? (Well, the French and Spanish seem like they could easily be related but the English seems really different)

Also weird is that both droit and derecho can also mean "straight, unturning," though in Spanish you distinguish when giving directions by saying al derecho for "straight" and a la derecha for "on the right."

How did this whole mess of words come about? (I could etymonline it but I thought Jonathon might have some more thorough info from the OED so I'm not going to spoil the surprise for myself)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 11, 2013, 03:41:07 PM
And then there's the separate meaning of "morally correct." Is that related too?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 11, 2013, 04:16:01 PM
You know how right can mean both the relative direction and also something that you're entitled to? I had the mind-blowing realization while trying to get to sleep that this same pair exists in both French and Spanish, though it doesn't seem that the words are related at all to the English right. (They're droit/droit and derecho/derecho).

Spoiler alert: They are in fact related. The French and Spanish words come from the Latin directus, which is a participial form of dirigo, from dis + rego. Rego comes from the PIE *h₃reǵ-. This was suffixed and became **rehtaz in Proto-Germanic, and from thence became right in Modern English.

BAM.

Quote
Why would the words mean both distinct things in all three languages if the words don't seem to be related? (Well, the French and Spanish seem like they could easily be related but the English seems really different)

Also weird is that both droit and derecho can also mean "straight, unturning," though in Spanish you distinguish when giving directions by saying al derecho for "straight" and a la derecha for "on the right."

How did this whole mess of words come about? (I could etymonline it but I thought Jonathon might have some more thorough info from the OED so I'm not going to spoil the surprise for myself)

Supposing that they weren't related but shared the same patterns of meaning, I'd chalk it up to cultural diffusion, probably from the Romans to surrounding cultures. There could also be some universal (or at least widespread) natural metaphors driving the development of some meanings.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 11, 2013, 04:19:11 PM
And then there's the separate meaning of "morally correct." Is that related too?

Yes. As far as I can tell, they're all related, though I'll have to elaborate later when I get home.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 11, 2013, 04:21:59 PM
Crazy!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on October 11, 2013, 04:30:59 PM
Possibly related to the notion that right = good and left = evil?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on October 11, 2013, 10:15:34 PM
Crazy!
I know right?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 12, 2013, 08:41:04 AM
Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83re%C7%B5-) says that the meaning of *h₃reǵ- was 'to straighten, to right oneself', 'right', and 'just'. I'm guessing that 'straight' was the original meaning and that the others are metaphorical extensions. Straight = good and therefore correct or just. The right hand came to be called so because of the sense that it was the correct hand to use. The Online Etymology Dictionary (http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=right&allowed_in_frame=0) says that right was not used this way in Old English; the word for the right hand was swiþra, meaning 'stronger'.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 03, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
This is a "how come?" question.

My original sentence started:
Quote
Once we have all the missing forms, we will be able to

Then I decided it needed to be prefaced with "only", and that meant I had to rearrange the order of "we will", resulting in
Quote
Only once we have all the missing forms, will we be able to

I'm fairly certain that's correct, but my question is why? What does adding the "only" do to the sentence structure?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 03, 2014, 02:11:57 PM
You have discovered subject-auxiliary inversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject%E2%80%93auxiliary_inversion), specifically negative inversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_inversion). SAI occurs most frequently in questions, but it also occurs after negative phrases and clauses, with some uses of the subjunctive ("Had I known . . .") and in some clauses with than, as, or so ("so did Bob"). In this case, the only clause is negative because it essentially means "in no case except this one".

Explaining that such phrases cause inversion is easier than explaining why. It's apparently an ongoing problem in theories of syntax. But the constructions is apparently a holdover from earlier English syntax (known by linguists as V2, because the verb is always the second constituent in the sentence) that is still alive and well in other Germanic languages. In V2 languages, the nominal word order is subject-verb-object, but you can bump the subject from its slot but putting another constituent in its place, whether an adverb, object, or some other kind of complement. The verb stays put, and the subject moves after it. You can still see it sometimes in Early Modern English, but today it only appears (outside of questions) in a limited range of constructions, and it now requires creating an auxiliary verb if there isn't one ("I never kicked puppies" > "Never did I kick puppies").

P.S.: I'd also take out the comma after the fronted negative clause, but I'm having a hard time explaining why it would need it in your original but not in the revised sentence.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on January 03, 2014, 02:25:45 PM
Quote
Only once we have all the missing forms, will we be able to,

That's the perfect construction in Mandarin. Not that you probably care. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 03, 2014, 04:02:33 PM
P.S.: I'd also take out the comma after the fronted negative clause, but I'm having a hard time explaining why it would need it in your original but not in the revised sentence.
On reflection, I agree. With both parts. ;)

And thanks! Very interesting.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 03, 2014, 04:11:27 PM
You're very welcome!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on January 16, 2014, 05:36:47 PM
So "ain't" is a contraction of "am not" but how? Other contractions like "don't" "isn't" and "can't" all make sense. But how do you get 'am' from 'ai'? Same question for won't how did we get 'wo' from 'will'?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 17, 2014, 12:07:16 PM
I think in that case it's phonetic, based on the way people sad it rather than the way they wrote it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 17, 2014, 12:17:06 PM
Merriam-Webster.com says it's originally a contraction of "are not", which leads more naturally into "ain't".

It also points out that it is used in place of all of the following: am not, are not, is not, have not, has not, do not, does not, did not.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 19, 2014, 12:39:31 AM
Dear Expert,

When did Dad and Daddy surpass Pop and Papa?  The latter seem more old fashioned to me.  Was it after WWII?  Is it a baby boomer thing?  Why would it change?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on January 19, 2014, 09:37:23 PM
I don't quite understand why "are not" becomes "ain't" but I know that if you pronounce it /arent/ you're still saying two syllables but if you say /arnt/ it is a pretty heavy syllable.  The last three consonants are all coronal, a liquid, a nasal and a voiceless stop.  My guess is that the liquid became a glide either because it was "easier" for a disparate sound to be placed than a more similar one due to sonority gradient, or it is assimilating to the vowel.  Though I have to admit I never memorized vowel features, since most of my phonology was in Arabic. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on January 19, 2014, 09:52:56 PM
:cautiously:
Are all uses (with different person/number) of ain't equally acceptable as negative helping verbs in... let's say in spoken American English like would appear in a TV show where the character is not supposed to be anything unusual (like an android)?  Is it less standard paired with plurals?  In Black Vernacular English it can apparently be used as a general purpose negative marker.  

Having looked around a bit I'm not finding a hit for the phonemic extraction of ain't.  
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 29, 2014, 08:21:18 AM
The sport known the whole world over as football is called soccer in the US.  Anyone know why?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on January 29, 2014, 09:52:29 AM
Soccer is short for "Association Football." It was known as soccer for awhile in Great Britain, but like the imperial system and Fahrenheit, Great Britain decided to hand those things off to us, switch, and then act like we're a bunch of squares along with all their other cool kid metric loving European football buddies.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 29, 2014, 09:57:37 AM
So "ain't" is a contraction of "am not" but how? Other contractions like "don't" "isn't" and "can't" all make sense. But how do you get 'am' from 'ai'? Same question for won't how did we get 'wo' from 'will'?

I meant to answer this when I had a little more free time, but I just realized that I had completely forgotten about it. I'll try to get to it soon, hopefully when my head is a little less fuzzy.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on January 29, 2014, 06:49:13 PM
I'm glad it's not that you won't answer it. :)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 29, 2014, 07:19:05 PM
Dear Expert,

When did Dad and Daddy surpass Pop and Papa?  The latter seem more old fashioned to me.  Was it after WWII?  Is it a baby boomer thing?  Why would it change?

It looks like it wasn't until about 1970 or so (at least according to Google Books (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=dad%2Cdaddy%2Cpapa%2Cpop&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cdad%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cdaddy%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cpapa%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cpop%3B%2Cc0)) that dad and daddy surpassed papa. The data for pop isn't reliable, because most of the hits for "pop" are for soda pop or pop music or culture. As for why it would change, beats me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 29, 2014, 08:18:17 PM
Weren't you the one who linked me to that awesome study on changing words for parents in various languages a while back?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 29, 2014, 08:33:13 PM
Probably. I bet it's around here somewhere.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 29, 2014, 08:37:26 PM
"Where do mama/papa words come from? (https://www.sussex.ac.uk/webteam/gateway/file.php?name=where-do-mama2.pdf&site=1)"

"Why 'Mama' and 'Papa'? (http://www.scribd.com/doc/54278465/13/WHY-MAMA-AND-PAPA)" (page 538)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 29, 2014, 08:51:30 PM
That first one is the one I was thinking of.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on January 30, 2014, 09:43:31 AM
my friend texted me this morning to ask me why he can say "take me home" but not "take me Salt Lake".  Besides making an inappropriate joke about the meaning of the second sentence without the preposition, I couldn't really give him a good answer as to why the first sentence didn't need the preposition beyond convention.  Can you give me a better explanation?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 30, 2014, 10:15:56 AM
The short answer is that home can be an adverb as well as a noun, while Salt Lake is just a noun. The slightly longer answer is that in Old English, you could use the accusative or dative form of the word for home (ham, with a long a as in father) without a preposition to mean to home or at home, respectively. It's from these uses that the modern adverbial arose.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on January 30, 2014, 11:51:03 AM
thank you!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 31, 2014, 10:13:59 AM
Soccer is short for "Association Football." It was known as soccer for awhile in Great Britain, but like the imperial system and Fahrenheit, Great Britain decided to hand those things off to us, switch, and then act like we're a bunch of squares along with all their other cool kid metric loving European football buddies.

:lol:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 01, 2014, 09:22:56 PM
So "ain't" is a contraction of "am not" but how? Other contractions like "don't" "isn't" and "can't" all make sense. But how do you get 'am' from 'ai'? Same question for won't how did we get 'wo' from 'will'?

Amn't dates to 1618, and after a little while it was shortened to an't. In non-rhotic dialects (that is, dialects that drop /r/ after vowels), an't was also used for are not (though I assume they were pronounced a little differently). Meanwhile, in't and even en't were sometimes used for isn't, and then an't began to be used for all three. It's not clear to me how or why the vowel changed to the long a sound in ain't, but presumably it was spelled this way to reflect that change.

A similar change happened with hasn't > han't > hain't. Then, since some English dialects drop initial /h/, it became homophonous with ain't, so now ain't also covers has not. Some dialects even have cain't for can't, so there must be something that explains the vowel change in all three. I'm just not sure what it is.

I'll get to won't and other weird contractions tomorrow.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 01, 2014, 09:35:43 PM
:)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on February 02, 2014, 05:51:11 AM
Interesting stuff, init?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 07, 2014, 07:22:32 AM
New question, if that's ok.

This is from a long debate elsewhere (in which I am a bystander, not a participant), most of which has zero to do with this point. But someone claimed that (details have been changed, but hopefully in ways that don't matter):
Quote
'Plumber' is a gender-neutral noun. Thus, any pronouns that refer back to it must be gender-neutral as well. Which is the reason for the use of 'him/her' or 's/he' or even 'one' in some sentences. And although it seems wrong, use of the singular 'they' is another common alternative.

Is that true? Is there anything wrong with the following sentence?
Quote
A plumber should really be more delicate when clearing clogged drains, especially when her tools are so fragile.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on February 07, 2014, 09:49:35 AM
I could maybe buy that argument if we had gendered forms of "plumber" but otherwise no way.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 10, 2014, 11:46:04 AM
But how do you get 'am' from 'ai'? Same question for won't how did we get 'wo' from 'will'?

Okay, here it is, finally: the short answer is that we don't. Will comes from a highly irregular verb, and will and woll existed side by side for centuries. (Modern German has will as the singular present-tense stem and woll as the plural present-tense stem.) Won't is a contraction of the earlier wonnot, which is a contraction of woll not. Somehow it managed to survive and make it into modern standard English while the other forms disappeared.

I was also going to try to answer why we have /doʊnt/ rather than /dunt/ (with the same vowel as do) for don't, but I can't find any explanation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on February 10, 2014, 12:36:54 PM
*fist bump*
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on February 11, 2014, 04:58:22 AM
New question, if that's ok.

This is from a long debate elsewhere (in which I am a bystander, not a participant), most of which has zero to do with this point. But someone claimed that (details have been changed, but hopefully in ways that don't matter):
Quote
'Plumber' is a gender-neutral noun. Thus, any pronouns that refer back to it must be gender-neutral as well. Which is the reason for the use of 'him/her' or 's/he' or even 'one' in some sentences. And although it seems wrong, use of the singular 'they' is another common alternative.

Is that true? Is there anything wrong with the following sentence?
Quote
A plumber should really be more delicate when clearing clogged drains, especially when her tools are so fragile.

The writer admits "they" might seem wrong, but "s/he" doesn't?  That's just weird.  I mean, plumber comes from plumbum which is neuter (in Latin) but if that were the argument, "it" would be perfectly serviceable.  I don't know why people pursuing gender neutrality in pronouns are so hung up on the implication of sentience.  I guess it's because people only do that in the pursuit of sensitivity.  Whatevs.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 12, 2014, 10:43:14 AM
New question, if that's ok.

This is from a long debate elsewhere (in which I am a bystander, not a participant), most of which has zero to do with this point. But someone claimed that (details have been changed, but hopefully in ways that don't matter):
Quote
'Plumber' is a gender-neutral noun. Thus, any pronouns that refer back to it must be gender-neutral as well. Which is the reason for the use of 'him/her' or 's/he' or even 'one' in some sentences. And although it seems wrong, use of the singular 'they' is another common alternative.

Is that true? Is there anything wrong with the following sentence?
Quote
A plumber should really be more delicate when clearing clogged drains, especially when her tools are so fragile.

It depends on what you mean by "wrong". Grammatically, it's okay. English does not have grammatical gender except for personal pronouns, so there's no rule—at least not a grammatical one—requiring a neuter pronoun after a neuter noun. But plumber is only notionally neuter, not grammatically neuter. That is, it's only neuter in the sense that it could refer to a person of either gender. (Note the contrast between this and the German Mädchen, a neuter noun meaning 'little girl' which requires the neuter pronoun es, meaning 'it'.) Using "she" with "plumber" is mostly only wrong in a discourse-pragmatic sense, because it violates the expectation that plumbers are male.  You could also say it's wrong in the sense that our society values being gender-neutral, and using a gendered pronoun doesn't fit with that value. (And going along with that, using "he" would be wrong in the sense that it reinforces stereotypes that we'd like to avoid. It's for these reasons rather than grammatical ones that people use "he/she", "one", or "they".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 12, 2014, 10:54:39 AM
In this particular case, the plumber (actually another job-specific noun) is a specific person known to be female.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 12, 2014, 11:00:43 AM
Huh. But "a plumber" is indefinite, which normally means that it's talking about a hypothetical or general case, not a specific person known to be female. As Wikipedia puts it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_(grammar)#Indefinite_article), "An indefinite article indicates that its noun is not a particular one (or ones) identifiable to the listener."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 12, 2014, 11:09:20 AM
But it's a common rhetorical device, no? Suppose it were in the following context:

Quote
Sue, you seem to have poured several bottle of Drano down this drain before even trying your plumber's snake. A plumber should really be more delicate when clearing clogged drains, especially when her tools are so fragile.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 12, 2014, 11:25:03 AM
Talking about general cases or unknown or unspecified entities is certainly common. But in that case her is not referring to Sue, but to the indefinite a plumber. It can't be both a general case and Sue.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 12, 2014, 02:07:36 PM
So you agree with the person I semi-quoted?

Nuts. :P

;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 12, 2014, 02:43:30 PM
I think I semi-agree. There is no absolute requirement to use a gender-neutral pronoun; generic he has been used for years, and some people now use generic she to mix things up or push back against stereotypes. But it can't be generic pronoun referring to an indefinite noun and refer to a specific gendered individual.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on February 19, 2014, 12:48:24 PM
Chicago Manual of Style question:  When you have citations from more than one chapter of a book that's an edited collection of chapters by different authors should there be an entry in the bibliography for each chapter used, or just one for the whole book?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 19, 2014, 01:14:38 PM
You should cite each chapter, but you can do it a couple different ways. If you're citing only a few contributions from an edited volume, you may want to cite each one in full, like so:

Smith, John. Date. "Title." In Book Title, edited by Jane Doe, pages. Place: Publisher.

But if you have several, you can cross-reference.

Smith, John. Date. "Title." In Doe, pages.
Jones, Sue. Date. "Title." In Doe, pages.
Doe, Jane. Date. Book Title. Place: Publisher.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on February 19, 2014, 03:04:29 PM
So, the same in the bibliography as in the footnotes.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 19, 2014, 03:54:18 PM
Yup. You're welcome.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 05, 2014, 04:28:42 PM
With all the mention of The Ukraine in the news, I wonder what happened to the "The" in "The Ukraine".  Apparently, now it's just "Ukraine".  When did they drop the "The"?

The United Stated of America may be the last nation to hold onto their "The".  I don't know, maybe The Democratic Republic of Congo still uses it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 05, 2014, 04:52:05 PM
There's still The Hague and The Bronx. (Not technically nations, although the latter could be so argued. ;) )
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 06, 2014, 08:08:10 AM
The Netherlands and the Philippines (not to mention the United States, the United Kingdom, the United Arab Emirates, the Czech Republic, and on and on). Apparently Ukraine officially dropped the article when they declared independence back in 1991, but not everyone got the memo. And I've seen some arguments that "the" is only used for regions and not countries (which is not true) and that the Russians referred to it as the Ukraine during the Soviet era, but that doesn't make sense to me—Russia doesn't have articles.

Edit: Here's a more thorough explanation (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 06, 2014, 08:26:18 AM
Quote
There are many other country names that are habitually referred to with "the", such as Congo, Gambia, Yemen, Lebanon, Sudan, Netherlands, Philippines and Bahamas.

I never hear people saying "The Gambia", "The Yemen", "The Lebanon", or "The Sudan".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 06, 2014, 10:35:13 AM
I've heard "the Sudan" and maybe "the Gambia" (but how often do you hear people talk about Gambia?). I don't think I've heard the others.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 06, 2014, 07:31:39 PM
There's still The Hague and The Bronx. (Not technically nations, although the latter could be so argued. ;) )

Which reminds me, I've always wondered who the heck the Broncks were anyway. But not enough to look it up. :P
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 06, 2014, 07:52:25 PM
Quote from: Wikipedia
Jonas Bronck was a Swedish born emigrant from Komstad, Norra Ljunga parish in Småland, Sweden who arrived in New Netherland during the spring of 1639. He became the first recorded European settler in the area now known as the Bronx.

I am amused that no one has corrected my spelling of The Bronx.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 06, 2014, 07:57:19 PM
Maybe because I don't see one.  :unsure:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 06, 2014, 08:05:12 PM
I didn't expect you to. Esther, or maybe Ela.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 06, 2014, 08:12:42 PM
What were you looking for, Da Bronx? ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 06, 2014, 08:14:45 PM
There ya go!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 06, 2014, 08:20:28 PM
 :D


And, huh, I never realized that Bronck was Swedish. I always assumed he was Dutch because...New Netherland. And the name sounds to me like it could be Dutch.

Even my husband - who's from Da Bronx - thought he was Dutch. He contradicted me when I said Bronck is Swedish. I said, no, he is, rivka just looked it up.  :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 06, 2014, 08:40:26 PM
I thought he was Dutch too, actually. But I trust Wikipedia a bit more than something I vaguely thought I remembered.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 09, 2014, 08:50:44 PM
I haven't heard the Yemen or the Lebanon.  I've only heard the Gambia in TMBG's alphabet of nations. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 12, 2014, 03:58:39 PM
What about The Congo? I suppose that's trickier now that there's 2 Congos. Congoes?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 12, 2014, 09:14:21 PM
Two Republics Congo.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 16, 2014, 09:17:14 PM
Ah, yes, of course.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 25, 2014, 12:20:33 PM
You know, I could never really tell a difference between "that" and "which" until now.  I mean, I had a sense that one was better in some situations, but this is the first time I've seen it change a sentence:
Quote
The research rather shows they are potent alkaloids with side effects [that/which] should be used with care.  
(To me, "that" points at side effects and "which" points at alkaloids.  This is probably obvious to some.  Just in the past when someone started talking about that/which, my brain would switch into "I wonder what's for lunch" mode.  Kind of like when people start talking about lay/lie.  Not quite as bad as "who/whom" which is one of those things that make me want to shoot myself.  To elaborate, if someone thinks knowing the difference between who/whom makes a grammar expert, it's going to be a long plane ride.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 25, 2014, 01:34:07 PM
I don't see any difference in the choice between that and which there. In restrictive clauses with non-human referents, they're interchangeable. There's no syntactic or semantic difference between the two.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 31, 2014, 08:01:16 AM
What's the correct pronunciation of lilacs?

My husband says it with a very short "a": lie-lacks. (Emphasized by a New Yawk "a". :p)
I say it with a longer "a", more like this: lie-lox.

The pronunciations I found online sound like something in between that, but when I played one of them for my daughter, she thought it sounded like the British pronunciation.

(I found a post linking to an article about a dispute over lilac pronunciation, but the link was dead.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on March 31, 2014, 08:08:51 AM
I say something like "LIE-lucks," with a schwa for the second syllable, very unstressed. But I have heard both of the ones you describe as well. It looks like your pronunciation is the most commonly used one (http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=lilac002&word=lilac&text=%5C%CB%88l%C4%AB-%CB%8Cl%C3%A4k%2C%20-%CB%8Clak%2C%20-l%C9%99k%5C).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 31, 2014, 08:23:20 AM
All three are apparently in use, and none of them are marked as regional or nonstandard. Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lilac) gives \ˈlī-ˌläk, -ˌlak, -lək\ (lie-lock, lie-lack, and lie-luck).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on March 31, 2014, 08:32:01 AM
All three are apparently in use, and none of them are marked as regional or nonstandard. Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lilac) gives \ˈlī-ˌläk, -ˌlak, -lək\ (lie-lock, lie-lack, and lie-luck).
I guess we know what you do "whenever you walk by a lilac tree."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 31, 2014, 10:58:29 AM
I say something like "LIE-lucks," with a schwa for the second syllable, very unstressed. But I have heard both of the ones you describe as well. It looks like your pronunciation is the most commonly used one (http://www.merriam-webster.com/audio.php?file=lilac002&word=lilac&text=%5C%CB%88l%C4%AB-%CB%8Cl%C3%A4k%2C%20-%CB%8Clak%2C%20-l%C9%99k%5C).
Yeah, that's pretty much how I say it.

All three are apparently in use, and none of them are marked as regional or nonstandard. Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lilac) gives \ˈlī-ˌläk, -ˌlak, -lək\ (lie-lock, lie-lack, and lie-luck).
Interesting.

It just sounds wrong to me when my husband says it, though. Maybe it's the NY accent. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on April 03, 2014, 04:09:28 PM
My manager has a speech pattern that I've never heard anyone else use, and I was wondering if it was just her idiolect, or something common to where she grew up, or what. She very consistently adds an "s" to proper nouns. For example, she has said that her favorite food is "Raisin Brans", and consistently calls Wal-Mart "Wal-Marts" (actually, she says "Wal-Marks", but that's neither here nor there for what I'm curious about here). Is that a "thing" somewhere, or is it unique to her?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 04, 2014, 08:13:27 AM
I've heard this before (or at least heard of it). It seems to happen mostly with store names—I haven't heard it with a brand name like Raisin Bran before—but it doesn't seem to be limited to a particular region. With a little googling, I found reports of it in the Midwest and South, and I've heard it out here in the West too. But I can't really find any more on it than that. But at least I can say it's not unique to her.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on April 04, 2014, 12:06:12 PM
I've known several people who refer to Cub Foods as "Cubs." Drives me crazy.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 04, 2014, 12:21:57 PM
I've known several people who refer to Cub Foods as "Cubs." Drives mes crazys.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on April 04, 2014, 04:00:59 PM
Gah!  My eyes!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on April 04, 2014, 04:05:20 PM
Today she mentioned looking something up on googles.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 04, 2014, 04:14:14 PM
 :wacko:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on April 05, 2014, 03:13:23 PM
I've known people who did that - they were all old-school Montanans. Old-school Montanans talk like North Dakotans/Minnesotans. They say things like /fleg/.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on April 05, 2014, 06:58:14 PM
And now I'm wondering what Cub Foods is (or are). Something not around here, apparently.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on April 05, 2014, 10:23:56 PM
Supermarket chain. Wikipedia says they are only in Minnesota and Illinois.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on April 06, 2014, 07:41:41 AM
There's one here in Dayton, or at least there used to be; I haven't been over in that part of town in a year or two.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on April 06, 2014, 09:46:41 AM
Supermarket chain. Wikipedia says they are only in Minnesota and Illinois.

Well, that would be why I've never heard of it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on April 06, 2014, 10:43:17 AM
I think I was in one during RaspberryCon. And it's either come up here before, or in books I read, or something.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on April 06, 2014, 12:51:30 PM
I think there may have been one in Maryland.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on April 06, 2014, 01:58:53 PM
it's possible, but I've never seen one in Maryland.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on April 06, 2014, 02:13:56 PM
Their website says Illinois, Minnesota, and Ohio. The only one listed in Ohio is the one in Dayton. 2 in Illinois. 66 in Minnesota.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on April 06, 2014, 04:03:49 PM
Guess it must be a MN store, for the most part.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on April 06, 2014, 05:09:00 PM
It does appear that is the case, at least currently.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on April 06, 2014, 07:11:22 PM
It struck me as being kind of a dismal place, the one time I  went into the one in Dayton.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on April 06, 2014, 09:39:08 PM
They vary greatly. 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on April 07, 2014, 12:51:04 PM
I wondered if that might be the case.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on April 18, 2014, 10:12:38 PM
All this talk of regional supermarkets just made me remember Pace. It was like the Costco of Colorado when I was growing up. Does it still exist? Did it exist elsewhere? The first time I went to a Costco was when I moved to Montana in 1994.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on April 26, 2014, 07:52:18 AM
Flux.

"It's in a state of flux."

"It's fluctuating."

Why don't we spell it "fluxuating"?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on April 26, 2014, 07:30:42 PM
That looks like the generic name for Paxil.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on April 26, 2014, 11:23:19 PM
Flux.

"It's in a state of flux."

"It's fluctuating."

Why don't we spell it "fluxuating"?
They are not the same word. The noun form of fluctuating is fluctuation. The verb form of flux is also flux.

They both seem to have a common origin though, from the Latin for flow.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on April 27, 2014, 04:45:50 PM
There's a lot of ct/x variation in Latin roots. I'm guessing the answering is buried somewhere in the historical phonology of Latin, but I don't know enough about it to explain.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on April 27, 2014, 06:41:31 PM
Some latin verb conjugations use x in the perfect and ct in the participial, and other things in the active/infinitive.

ago, agere, axi, actus is where we get agent, actor, and just about every english word ending in x besides x.

Another very productive root is
Facere, factus.  Transfer and manufacture are from the same root.

A weird one is
Fero, Ferre, tuli latus, which means carry.  Lat- is used extensively but I can't think of any instances of -tul-
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on July 07, 2014, 11:58:22 PM
Help me use "affiance" in a sentence. It's a verb, meaning to promise, but it just doesn't sound right to say,

"I affiance that I will return."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on July 08, 2014, 12:15:55 AM
It means not just "promise" but "promise to marry", like you're going to be fiances.

"Miss Piggy was affianced to Kermit the Frog."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on July 08, 2014, 01:39:38 AM
Ah. That makes way more sense. Thanks!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on August 05, 2014, 09:25:36 AM
Someone in my office pronounces "taco" as "tyaco" and "never" as "nyever". What region(s) is that native to?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 05, 2014, 06:16:41 PM
Russia?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 05, 2014, 09:18:52 PM
Basilica.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 05, 2014, 11:29:49 PM
I'm not aware of any regional dialect with that feature. The closest I can think of is the way some people with the Northern Cities Shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cities_Vowel_Shift#Raising_and_tensing_of_.2F.C3.A6.2F) raise and tense the vowel in cat.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 07, 2014, 09:33:54 AM
I'm not aware of any regional dialect with that feature. The closest I can think of is the way some people with the Northern Cities Shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Cities_Vowel_Shift#Raising_and_tensing_of_.2F.C3.A6.2F) raise and tense the vowel in cat.

That was my first guess. It's why I crack up when my Wisconsin aunts talk about laptops.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 20, 2014, 01:16:03 PM
Why is feed both a transitive and intransitive verb?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 20, 2014, 01:45:52 PM
Why not? Lots of verbs are both transitive and intransitive. Taking a transitive verb and making it intransitive (or vice versa) is a pretty common shift.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 20, 2014, 02:08:44 PM
Is there typically one that comes first? Like, was it the transitive verb and then people started intransitiving it?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 20, 2014, 06:26:11 PM
I don't know whether there's a typical pattern. Feed was first transitive and then acquired some intransitive senses.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dro_Trebor on August 23, 2014, 09:31:02 AM
Annie, in particular, but feel free to chime in even if you aren't Annie...

I could use some advice on how to help a Chinese born engineer with pretty decent English writing skills learn a few basics to make her writing sound less stereotypically Chinese. In particular, is there a good way to teach when a native English speaker would use a, an, and specially the?

There are a couple of other things that she struggles with, but otherwise her writing is actually very clear and easy to understand. The one or two other things she'd like to work on are proper use of state-of-being verbs (is and are seem to disappear or are used indiscriminately), and there are some just odd constructions for things that are basic statements used frequently such as "crashes are due to a number of reasons". Not hard to understand, but atypical use of the word reason when normally you'd see the word "factors" or a construction like "crashes occur for a number of reasons". Minor, but it marks her as a non-native writer in a field that values writing skills, and is clearly dominated by  US educated engineers with sufficient biases against women and foreigners that having her writing stand out in this way can negatively impact her career.

I've put together a list of sample sentences from Chinese authored papers that I've reviewed, but I'm thinking this may be a slog for her if the only thing I do is throw hundreds of bad sentences at her without maybe some explanation of the "rules".

I personally don't know all the rules, though. I can readily spot the bad usage and tell her what it should be.

Is that going to be enough, with tons of practice will she develop an ear and an eye for this?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 23, 2014, 12:49:51 PM
Bob: To be perfectly honest those very things are what 95% of Chinese people learning English struggle with particularly because Chinese doesn't contain tenses or a/an/the equivalents. It's simply a part of English everybody learns through struggling with the language and accept correction every time it comes up.

One quick short cut for a/an is if the word afterward starts with a vowel (though the rule is actually a vowel sound) you use "an", otherwise "a". As for a/the I guess the best thing I can think of is we use, "a" to reference one of something. If the "one of something" we are discussing is unique from others in some way we start referring to it as "the something".

I wish I could be more help, but honestly in my own experience helping Chinese people leap these hurdles it just comes down to them hearing and using them correctly over and over and over and eventually habits form.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dro_Trebor on August 23, 2014, 03:32:09 PM
That's kind of what I thought, that practice and repetition is the only way. Hoping someone with experience teaching ESL to this population would have a better solution.

For the a versus an, the problem doesn't appear to be the rule about vowel or consonant. I wish it were that simple. It's more like that they realize that there should be an article sometimes, but not sure when, and they use a/an some times when it should be the, and vice versa, intermingled with not using an article at all. Or using one when one isn't required. It seems like the usage is random, and certainly not rules based.

And, yes, I agree that these are common problems. They mark this very bright competent engineer as someone who cannot be used to write reports on her own or edit the work of others, and that limits her future as supervisory positions all require the ability to edit writing others have produced, and write well on ones own. The company is taking steps to have a more purposeful QC step using tech writers, but she will still be at a disadvantage if all her work costs the company more to fix than the work of other engineers does.

So, she can't get by having the same flaws as 95% of her countrymen. Not if she wants to rise up in the private sector. She will have a ceiling in our firm, I suspect. And we are one of the more flexible firms. More importantly, she wants to address this, and it seems like it should be fixable.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on August 23, 2014, 04:52:38 PM
I am not an ESL teacher of course, and I really hope Annie has more to say.

My advice would be tutoring in the evenings. Taking reports, marking where those mistakes are, but not saying what the fix is, and seeing what she can figure out. Then where she is stuck, explain to her why "a" or "the" doesn't work there. She might also consider using a previously corrected report as a template when she writes up new ones. She also might consider a service like Live Mocha

Link (http://livemocha.com/).

You correct other people's language assignments or give them practice time (In her case she would help somebody with Chinese) and in turn somebody who speaks English would help her with her reports or other kinds of writing. Honestly I have seen so many Chinese people have this problem, but with time and concerted effort, it goes away. It really does. I have seen people who could barely form a sentence go on to be very eloquent purely by practicing in their spare time with native speakers.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dro_Trebor on August 23, 2014, 04:59:23 PM
I'm sure she'll manage it. I just don't want to steer her in a direction that is either wrong or more time consuming or frustrating than it needs to be. I really want to help. I can give her hundreds of practice sentences as I am a frequent reviewer of very badly written stuff from Chinese universities. She's already better than most of these folks, so I'm just picking examples of the specific things she wants work on. I figure it'd be better than critiquing her own writing at this point.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 25, 2014, 12:36:40 PM
English articles are probably the most difficult aspect of writing for non-native speakers to master. There really aren't very good, concise rules and so many uses are complicated or idiomatic. I had a classmate from Japan whose English was impeccable who would ask me about article rules and challenge me to teach him all of them. I never won that challenge - every day he'd come up with a new sentence to stump me.

Realistically, I wish there weren't such a stigma against non-native speakers. If a decent editor can make sense of the writing, there isn't any reason she should be treated differently than other writers. Native speakers need to have their writing edited as well. But I see what you mean about the practicality of the situation in terms of how she's perceived in the workplace.

There are resources like this one (http://esl.fis.edu/grammar/rules/article.htm), but again, there are more rules than are presented there and some of the hardest situations to explain are those in which no article is used or things are used as abstractions (Think of the sentence The invention of the computer revolutionized the American workplace.)

My preference, rather than providing her with a huge number of counterexamples and a giant maze of rules, would be to provide her with lots of chances to get input of positive examples. The best way to do this is through extensive listening and reading. The best second-language speakers are the ones who listen to/read a lot of the target language and then speak/write by imitating the style that they've been exposed to. If you have the time, you could help her out by finding published articles in the style she's expected to write in and isolate examples of the kind of sentences she needs to imitate. Have her write her own sentences based on those patterns, and reinforce it every day. Maybe even send her an email in the morning saying "Please write me a sentence that uses the like this sentence does and send it to me by this afternoon."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dro_Trebor on August 25, 2014, 12:43:11 PM
Thank you! That's exactly the kind of advice and warnings I need!

I will try to implement your suggestions, and basically, while it still comes down to practice and exposure, you've given me ideas on how to make it less frustrating for all concerned.

Yay!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 25, 2014, 12:59:20 PM
Well, that's good. Be warned that my approach is heavily biased by Western ESL methods and that I harbor a deep dislike of the way Chinese people teach their students English. This rubs a lot of Asians the wrong way because they grew up being told that if you memorize and follow rules X, Y, and Z your English will be "correct." I'm still right, of course ;) , but I do acknowledge that there are cultural factors at play.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dro_Trebor on August 25, 2014, 02:52:01 PM
I'd live fir there to be a rules based approach, but clearly if there were this wouldn't be a problem for so many.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 27, 2014, 10:10:35 AM
Something I liked to think about is that there are different scopes of complexity in the different languages.  English writes everything with permutations of 26 letters, while chinese can express most words with a pair of radicals, but there have to be a lot more radicals to accomplish this.  Likewise they have less syllabic diversity but more tones.  It's not a concept* proper linguists put much stock in (at least in my day), but might appease her need for there to be an explanation behind the "Just so" ness of it.  There are different article usages between English speaking countries, notably "in the hospital" vs. "in hospital."  

*the concept I mean is that every language has some area of unreasoning complexity, compensated by areas of simplicity.  Where this claim really jumps the shark for proper linguists is in countenancing writing systems.  But I think this kind of thinking about languages helps break down some of the prejudice that accompanies language learning.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Dro_Trebor on August 27, 2014, 10:49:01 AM
Interesting thoughts.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 27, 2014, 11:00:45 AM
Something I liked to think about is that there are different scopes of complexity in the different languages.  English writes everything with permutations of 26 letters, while chinese can express most words with a pair of radicals, but there have to be a lot more radicals to accomplish this.  Likewise they have less syllabic diversity but more tones.  It's not a concept* proper linguists put much stock in (at least in my day), but might appease her need for there to be an explanation behind the "Just so" ness of it.  There are different article usages between English speaking countries, notably "in the hospital" vs. "in hospital." 

*the concept I mean is that every language has some area of unreasoning complexity, compensated by areas of simplicity.  Where this claim really jumps the shark for proper linguists is in countenancing writing systems.  But I think this kind of thinking about languages helps break down some of the prejudice that accompanies language learning.

I totally believe the same thing, totally anecdotally. Every language is hard in a different way. Spanish is super easy, right? Wait until you have to juggle dialectal differences, different countries using different pronouns, or the never-ending complexity of sociolinguistic factors. Japanese is super hard, right? Well, yeah, until you get the hang of an SOV language and different registers and then everything is extremely regular and predictable. Humans all speak their native language at about the same level of difficulty.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 27, 2014, 11:46:27 AM
In recent years I've heard some linguists push back agains the idea that all languages are equally complex. I think that idea was an overreaction to the idea that some languages (mostly creoles, regional languages, and nonstandard dialects) have overly simple grammar or no grammar at all.

But some languages do actually take longer to learn, even for native speakers. And standardized languages tend to have less complexity than nonstandard dialects, because they've had more people acquire the language as adults, and adults rarely acquire a language perfectly.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 28, 2014, 11:44:59 AM
What if you factor in idiomatic expressions? I'm not saying you can't learn an official, standard version of one language relatively easily, but I feel like the way native speakers use idioms, not to mention registers, would make it just as hard to sound like a convincing Spanish-speaking teenage dude as a Chinese businessman.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 02, 2014, 09:05:33 PM
Do we have a word for a male ballet dancer?   We have ballerinas, but I never hear about ballerinos.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 03, 2014, 08:09:40 AM
Looks like in Italian it is indeed ballerino. It's funny that all the ballet terms in English are French except for the names of the dancers. Apparently ballet started in Italy first but got all famous in France. The dancers are called ballerin and ballerine in French.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 03, 2014, 08:14:06 AM
This is fun too: Italian uses the verbs ballare and danzare for dance, while Spanish only keeps bailar and French only keeps danser. (Though Spanish does use the noun danza to mean a specific dance form, as in danza folklorica, and French has the noun bal to mean a formal dance party.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 03, 2014, 08:20:50 AM
So "ballroom dancing" would pretty much be redundant.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on October 21, 2014, 12:19:23 PM
Never connected ball and ballet before.  Cool.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 07, 2014, 08:40:19 PM
Would beddy-bye as in, "Time for beddy-bye" be an example of babies influencing language?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 07, 2014, 10:04:00 PM
Yup. Or at least adults imitating children's language.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on November 10, 2014, 07:33:06 PM
How did "house" come to refer to the part of the theater where the audience sits?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 10, 2014, 08:09:47 PM
It looks like it was actually a pretty straightforward development. House has long been used for buildings that aren't actually dwelling places (alehouse, bathhouse, courthouse, etc.), including theaters. The OED offers this definition:

Quote
A place for public entertainment; (originally) a theatre or playhouse; (later also) a cinema, concert hall, or other venue. Hence: the audience or attendance at this. Also: a (specified) performance, esp. one that closely follows another, as first house, second house, etc.

So it's mostly a simple case of metonymy: the house first refers to the building, and then it comes to refer to the people in the building or the place where they sit. I'm not exactly sure why it would refer only to the audience and not the cast or staff, except that it seems handier as a term to refer to the audience.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Noemon on November 10, 2014, 08:33:29 PM
I was listening to something this morning on Morning Edition in which the person being interviewed was talking about the centrality of bread in human culture, and the way all sorts of words are entwined with bread. He gave the example of "companion" literally being someone you had bread with. He said in the piece that he had literally written the book on the subject, but I can't remember his name or the name of the book, and I'm not finding any references to the piece when I look on the Morning Edition website. Are you by any chance familiar with it?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 11, 2014, 07:41:44 AM
Sadly, I am not.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: BlackBlade on November 11, 2014, 11:40:30 AM
I was listening to something this morning on Morning Edition in which the person being interviewed was talking about the centrality of bread in human culture, and the way all sorts of words are entwined with bread. He gave the example of "companion" literally being someone you had bread with. He said in the piece that he had literally written the book on the subject, but I can't remember his name or the name of the book, and I'm not finding any references to the piece when I look on the Morning Edition website. Are you by any chance familiar with it?

I don't want to be that guy, but bread is definitely not a central component of Asian culture.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 26, 2014, 12:08:39 PM
I was listening to something this morning on Morning Edition in which the person being interviewed was talking about the centrality of bread in human culture, and the way all sorts of words are entwined with bread. He gave the example of "companion" literally being someone you had bread with. He said in the piece that he had literally written the book on the subject, but I can't remember his name or the name of the book, and I'm not finding any references to the piece when I look on the Morning Edition website. Are you by any chance familiar with it?
I don't want to be that guy, but bread is definitely not a central component of Asian culture.

I was going to be that guy if you didn't. :) Just insert a pedantic remark about how they should have said "Western culture."

Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 08, 2014, 07:57:45 AM
Why does my spellchecker say I misspell "omelette" and "analogue"?  Did the truncated "omelet" and "analog" become standard when I wasn't looking, and I missed the memo?  Is this the kind of thing that marks me as a relic of the last century, like habitually putting two spaces after a period?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 08, 2014, 08:02:46 AM
Omelet and omelette are pretty close in frequency (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=omelette%2Comelet&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Comelette%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Comelet%3B%2Cc0), but analog has taken a pretty significant lead over analogue (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=analog%2Canalogue&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Canalog%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Canalogue%3B%2Cc0). I wouldn't mark any of those as wrong, though. It's just that built-in spellcheckers tend to be pretty limited, so they often leave out perfectly standard variants like those.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 08, 2014, 08:34:04 AM
Cool.  It looks like about 20 years ago, "dialog" took off out of nowhere (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=dialogue%2C+dialog&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=17&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cdialogue%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cdialog%3B%2Cc0).  Who decided in the last decades of the last century to start lopping off the ends of the spelling words I learned in elementary school?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on December 08, 2014, 11:44:59 AM
Have you guys ever seen people use technic for technique? I've seen several people do it, and I had a piano textbook once that did. It drives me batty because it's hard to squeeze the same pronunciation out of technic without feeling really weird.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 08, 2014, 11:51:02 AM
I haven't seen that one.  I'm wondering if the spellcheckers are driving the change in spelling
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 08, 2014, 11:59:08 AM
Apparently it's a thing. link (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/technic)

Quote
tech·nic noun \ˈtek-nik, for 1 also tek-ˈnēk\
 
Definition of TECHNIC

1 :  technique 1
2 plural but sing or plural in constr :  technology 1a
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 08, 2015, 11:19:53 AM
Is there any real reason at all to insist on differences among em-dashes, en-dashes and hyphens? Are there any cases of ambiguity? I can't understand why we still care about them, which I realize makes me obnoxious to fellow graphic designers and purists, but seriously. I see no reason we can't just use one size dash for everything.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 08, 2015, 11:47:09 AM
I like the en dash, but I'll admit that it doesn't serve a real purpose that couldn't be served by a hyphen. I guess you could argue that there's a difference between a hyphen as a separator (as in a phone number) and an en dash as an indicator of an inclusive range, but there's no real risk of ambiguity.

I still think em dashes and hyphens should be separate, though. Using single hyphens for dashes leads to confusion because you can't tell the difference between a compound word and a break in the sentence, which are very different things.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 08, 2015, 01:12:45 PM
Unless you put a space on either side of the hyphen-acting-as-emdash.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 08, 2015, 01:15:32 PM
Yeah, that could work.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Keith on January 09, 2015, 10:11:29 PM
I actually have some trouble parsing Rakeesh's posts on fora because he uses hyphens without spaces instead of emulating emdashes with spaces.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 10, 2015, 08:32:33 AM
Yeah, I was thinking of that too.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 11, 2015, 09:55:44 AM
Me three.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on January 20, 2015, 06:10:11 AM
Fourthed.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on January 20, 2015, 06:22:38 AM
Is there an English word that refers to the word in another language that is translated into the language you are writing in?  The source word? Used in a sentence like "Dikaiosune is the _____ of "justice" in Plato's Republic."  I guess it would be the inverse of the word translation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 20, 2015, 07:44:51 AM
Hmm. I don't think I've ever encountered a word quite like that. Usually I see things phrased like "Dikaiosune is translated as 'justice' in Plato's Republic."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on January 20, 2015, 09:16:02 AM
Yeah, me too.  Or "The word "justice" is a translation of the Greek word "dikaiosune," if the starting point is the other side.  It seems like there should be a word for it, though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 20, 2015, 10:12:55 AM
Original word?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on March 04, 2015, 12:54:54 PM
If the title of a book ends with a question mark do you put a comma after the question mark in a situation where you would normally put a comma after a book title?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2015, 01:09:40 PM
It depends on the style guide. The latest edition of Chicago says to do so, but only in source citations. APA says no (http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2011/07/punctuating-the-reference-list-entry.html), and I can't find anything in MLA.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on March 04, 2015, 01:13:05 PM
I'm using Chicago.  Thanks. 

But here's a worse one . . . an article title that ends with a question mark.  Comma inside the quotation marks after the question mark?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2015, 01:27:12 PM
Inside. It's a little weird, but they're not budging on the in-or-out question.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on March 04, 2015, 01:30:59 PM
Thanks.

Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2015, 01:31:45 PM
No problem.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on March 05, 2015, 04:37:52 AM
Can you rewrite the sentence to avert this abomination?
Now I'm thinking of a monster slayer hero that seeks out and corrects adjacent punctuation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on March 05, 2015, 10:40:27 AM
I'm thinking of an educational video game for teaching grammar and/or punctuation. When you rewrite the incorrect sentence the monster turns aside and doesn't eat you.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 22, 2015, 08:32:49 PM
That's cool! I have a ton of half-developed educational apps that I just need to find a good enough programmer to help me finish. Do you make any games yourself?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on March 23, 2015, 05:03:47 AM
No, that was a stray thought in response to pooka's post.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 26, 2015, 09:18:31 AM
Language mavens, have you read Mary Norris's new book, Between You & Me?  It's a fun language book recounting her experience as a copy editor at The New Yorker .
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 26, 2015, 11:06:32 AM
I haven't, but I've heard pretty good things about it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 26, 2015, 11:52:18 AM
It's worth reading, and it's a skinny book that doesn't take long to get through.  She has fun talking about restrictive clauses, serial commas, her favorite pencils, the characters she worked with, and how hard it is to typeset Emily Dickenson's dashes.  She compares the joy she feel when she encounters a terrific unfamiliar word with the way a cartoon dog hugs himself and levitates when he gets a biscuit.

Spoiler: Pronoun Warning (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on May 28, 2015, 04:20:14 AM
Dear Expert,

When citing a letter that's reprinted entirely in a book, but the book is otherwise by a single author rather than an edited collection, how should I list the author of the book?  Do I just put "By ___" where I would put "Edited by ____" if it were a chapter from an edited work?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 28, 2015, 08:43:15 AM
If there's no editor and the author's name is in the title, you don't need to list an author or editor at all. But if your style requires you to list something, then I'd just use "by" or just the author's name. So a a Chicago-style note would look like this:

John Smith to Sue Smith, 1 January 2015, in Letters of John Smith (City: Publisher Name, 2015), 1.

And a bibliography entry would look like this:

Smith, John. Letters of John Smith. City: Publisher Name, 2015.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on May 28, 2015, 12:15:47 PM
The letter isn't by the author of the book.  It's an "open letter" that was originally published in a newspaper being used as an example by the author of the book. This is what I have now:

Ted Lyddon Hatten, “An Open Letter to an Arsonist.” Reprinted in Becoming Jesus Prayer: Transforming Your Life Through the Lord’s Prayer, Gregory Palmer, Cindy McCalmont, & Brian Milford (Cleveland: The Pilgrim Press, 2005), 77-78.

Hatten, Ted Lyddon. “An Open Letter to an Arsonist.” Reprinted in Becoming Jesus Prayer: Transforming Your Life Through the Lord’s Prayer. By Gregory Palmer, Cindy McCalmont, and Brian Milford, 75-78. Cleveland: The Pilgrim Press, 2005.

Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 28, 2015, 12:36:20 PM
Ah, I see. Yeah, I'd say that looks good. It's sufficiently clear who wrote it and how to track it down if the reader is interested.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on May 29, 2015, 01:26:57 PM
My brother's name is Greg Palmer. I guess he has a doppelganger in academia.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on May 29, 2015, 01:41:40 PM
Maybe he's living a double life.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on May 29, 2015, 07:27:56 PM
Somehow I don't think so.

(http://www.ministrymatters.com/images/custom/14803/gregory-v-palmer.jpg)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 02, 2015, 12:32:07 PM
I'm pretty sure I don't have any doppelgangers in academia. The only doppelgangers I have are a few random Dutch girls married to Spanish dudes. They actually exist, though, which is funny.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 02, 2015, 12:35:12 PM
I just had a nerd-coma for a minute there thinking about the Hapsburgs and how they changed the world.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 16, 2015, 01:59:35 PM
I have a section heading called "Hairnets and Beard Nets." I can't help but think it looks weird - the dictionary tells me hairnets is one word, but would it be better to break it up here so it matches beard nets? What would you do with your mad skillz of an editor?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 16, 2015, 02:08:41 PM
Yeah, I think I'd probably break it up for internal consistency, even if "hairnet" is usually one word.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 22, 2015, 09:19:10 AM
Yeah, I think I'd probably break it up for internal consistency, even if "hairnet" is usually one word.

Thanks!

Another question, just out of curiosity. I just got a piece back from editing and this is one of the changes they made: "Lesson 5: When pH is Out of Specification" changed to "Lesson 5: When pH Is out of Specification"

I can't remember having ever learned a reliable rule for capitalizing small words. The most I remember from high school is "small words are left lowercase," which isn't exactly precise. What's the reason that is should be capitalized while out isn't? Is it something to do with the word's function in the sentence?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 22, 2015, 09:30:12 AM
Ugh. I would keep the first one. "Is" is just a linking verb, but "Out" changes the phrase's meaning entirely.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 22, 2015, 09:46:29 AM
Ugh. I would keep the first one. "Is" is just a linking verb, but "Out" changes the phrase's meaning entirely.

Yup.  Don't capitalize articles, prepositions, or the verb "to be".  But just because a word is little doesn't mean it's not important.  Ma means the world to me, and I always capitalize her.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 22, 2015, 10:14:15 AM
Yeah, I think I'd probably break it up for internal consistency, even if "hairnet" is usually one word.

Thanks!

Another question, just out of curiosity. I just got a piece back from editing and this is one of the changes they made: "Lesson 5: When pH is Out of Specification" changed to "Lesson 5: When pH Is out of Specification"

I can't remember having ever learned a reliable rule for capitalizing small words. The most I remember from high school is "small words are left lowercase," which isn't exactly precise. What's the reason that is should be capitalized while out isn't? Is it something to do with the word's function in the sentence?

The rule is that you lowercase prepositions, coordinating conjunctions, and articles, and that rule is essentially the same in The Chicago Manual of Style, the MLA style guide, the APA style guide, and the AP style guide, though some make exceptions for words of four or more letters.

I think it looks stupid sometimes, but all the major style guides say the same thing here. The high school rule "small words are left lowercase" is an unfortunate side effect of the decline of grammar teaching. How many students can reliably identify prepositions and coordinating conjunctions?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 22, 2015, 12:44:34 PM
All the kids in my elementary school had to memorize all the prepositions in alphabetical order.  To the tune of "Yankee Doodle".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 23, 2015, 12:27:45 PM
All of them? I'm having a hard time finding an exact number, but at least one site says that there are about 150.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 23, 2015, 02:36:35 PM
All the prepositions that fit into the tune of Yankee Doodle, I guess.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on June 23, 2015, 06:59:27 PM
37 of them.  Out didn't make the cut.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on June 23, 2015, 07:04:50 PM
About above across after against among around at
Before behind beside between by down during except for
From in near of off on over through to toward under up with
Aboard along below beneath besides beyond concerning!

Some things you never forget.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 23, 2015, 09:08:01 PM
Shvester!  My list varies a bit from yours.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 24, 2015, 08:27:39 AM
I still know all of the Presidents of the United States to the tune of Yankee Doodle. The version I learned ends with "Bush makes 41 presidents."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on July 03, 2015, 09:15:33 AM
Like shave and a haircut?  Or that's the end of the tune?  It would please me to fill in with Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obaaaaama.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 05, 2015, 08:27:26 PM
Like shave and a haircut?  Or that's the end of the tune?  It would please me to fill in with Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obaaaaama.
That's the last few notes of the tune, and when I fill it in in my head, that's exactly how I do it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 10, 2015, 09:39:59 AM
Dear expert: the em dash is stupid, and I don't think I should have to waste my time putting it in.

"Oh my word, what did the author mean here? It seems she's possibly trying to separate two clauses but I will never know because she used a hyphen with spaces on either side!"
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 10, 2015, 09:29:28 PM
It's not so much about meaning as it is about looking professionally designed and edited.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 29, 2015, 09:01:49 AM
What's a good explanation of the difference (if any) between insure and ensure?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 29, 2015, 09:03:47 AM
There is no real difference. They're etymologically the same word, and insure because as a spelling variant. I think they're used interchangeably in the UK (or maybe they use insure for both), while in the US we've differentiated them. It's kind of a pointless distinction, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on July 29, 2015, 09:12:51 AM
OK, good to know. My instinct is to use ensure when I'm not talking specifically about buying an insurance policy, and I'm re-writing a text that uses insure everywhere. But I guess it doesn't really matter which, then.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 29, 2015, 09:14:36 AM
Well, it matters in the sense that the spellings are pretty standardized in the US. I would keep changing insure to ensure when not talking about some sort of insurance policy.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 14, 2015, 06:04:39 AM
Does anyone else have a feeling that the word peg can be used to mean "hit"? Like, " He pegged her in the arm," or, more specifically, to hit someone with something thrown at them? Like, "He pegged her with a snowball."? I feel like I've heard that before but can't find any dictionary definitions that really bear that out. There's one in Merriam Webster that says "to throw," but that doesn't seem quite right. I'm not thinking of "He pegged the snowball," but rather "He pegged her with the snowball."

Anyway, I'm wondering if this slangy sounding use might possibly come from Spanish. I was learning about the verb pegar yesterday. I'm familiar with it in the context of working in the nursery at church and the other, Spanish speaking, teachers, telling the kids not to "pegar" each other. Then yesterday, a friend gave us a pot of leftover soup but told us not to heat it up in that same pot because it would "pegar." I was really confused and asked my husband about it, and he said it meant that it would stick to the pot. So I looked it up, and apparently it means "hit," "stick," and a thousand other things, including, my husband says, to have been a hit or have been popular, like "In the 80s, that hairstyle really pegó." Interesting word.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 14, 2015, 08:11:37 AM
Yeah, I think I've heard that use before. It seems unlikely to me that it comes from Spanish, though. Peg already has a lot of uses in English that include hitting, so even if that particular use isn't captured by any dictionary, it probably still developed out of one of the existing uses in English.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Keith on September 16, 2015, 01:02:25 PM
If someone is presiding, is it always accurate to call them a president?  Or is President a title that must be designated first? 
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 16, 2015, 01:10:20 PM
I'd say it's a title that has to be designated. Just because Joe Schmoe presides over some committee at work doesn't mean he's President Schmoe.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Keith on September 16, 2015, 01:34:06 PM
Thanks!  That matches what I think I've seen, but I saw someone use the term "presider" and it made me wonder.  Looks like it's in the dictionary as the noun for one who presides, but I don't remember seeing it before.  I'll probably continue to use "boss". ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 16, 2015, 01:53:06 PM
Yeah, even if it's a real word, "presider" is weird. I don't think I've ever seen it before either.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 16, 2015, 02:04:42 PM
I'm usually a presidee at meetings.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on September 16, 2015, 09:19:01 PM
I think the meeting itself is the presidee.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: dkw on September 17, 2015, 04:33:11 AM
Yeah, even if it's a real word, "presider" is weird. I don't think I've ever seen it before either.

 Huh. It's a perfectly normal word to me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 17, 2015, 09:19:18 AM
I would just word it as "the person who presides."
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on September 22, 2015, 07:52:23 PM
It's comprehensible, but I've never heard it used, just as I've never heard escaper (which isn't actually what it sounds like).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 06, 2015, 10:42:35 PM
Why do I only hear about actions being preemptive, but never postemptive, or just emptive?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 07, 2015, 07:58:23 AM
You never hear them because nobody ever uses them. ;)

The root empt comes from the Latin emere 'to buy'. Emption means 'purchase', and preemption meant the right of someone to buy something first, and from there it came to mean doing something that stopped someone else from doing something. I guess nobody talks about postemption because there's no such thing as a right to buy something last. Emption appears to be limited to legal contexts.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on October 07, 2015, 09:42:04 PM
Caveat emptor is a thing.  Is empty?  I'll see if i can check
Nope
Quote
1520s, from empty (adj.); replacing Middle English empten, from Old English geæmtigian. Related: Emptied; emptying.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 21, 2015, 11:32:02 AM
Is there a better way to construct this clunky sentence?

It's not actually a sentence, it's a bullet item. But nonetheless:

Quote
A Master Sanitation Cleaning Schedule (MSCS) that identifies areas of your operation, equipment, and utensils that require cleaning and sanitizing as well as the frequency at which this needs to occur.

Frequency at which or frequency with which? And what about the overall clunkiness? The fact that it's one item in a bullet list is making it hard for me to rewrite it as multiple sentences.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 21, 2015, 12:07:27 PM
First, I think I'd say "frequency with which". "Frequency at which" makes it sound like you're talking about a radio broadcast.

And yeah, I think the biggest problem is that it needs to be multiple sentences but apparently can't be. Does "that require cleaning and sanitizing" apply to just utensils or to all of the preceding? I assume it's all of it, which makes rewriting a little harder.

How about this?

Quote
A Master Sanitation Cleaning Schedule (MSCS) that identifies everything that needs to be cleaned and sanitized (including areas of your operation, equipment, and utensils) and how often this needs to be done.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 21, 2015, 12:27:30 PM
I do like that better. The other problem is that this is for an audio script, so I usually like to avoid parentheticals. There will be accompanying on-screen text, but I try to keep it outline-style and minimal and be as fluid and descriptive as possible in the audio narration.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 21, 2015, 12:45:31 PM
Poo.

Any chance you could cut out the parenthetical bit and make it clear elsewhere in the text? Because as it is, the sentence is really saying two things:


I think this is one of the biggest causes of bad writing—trying to cram too much into one sentence. I don't really see a good way to solve that problem without splitting the two ideas up. If you really can't, then I'd probably do something like this:

Quote
A Master Sanitation Cleaning Schedule (MSCS) that identifies the areas of your operation, equipment, and utensils that need to be cleaned and sanitized and how often this needs to be done.

Which is pretty much what you started with, but with less bureaucratese in the second half.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on October 21, 2015, 05:15:01 PM
Yeah - I have to keep playing around with it, I guess.

The hardest part of jobs like this is that they give me policy documents and then I have to write a script out of them. If I get too carried away with paraphrasing they freak out because too much of their bureaucratese is gone, whereas if I don't change enough it makes for nigh incomprehensible training materials.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on October 21, 2015, 05:22:05 PM
I really wish they'd hire more professional writers instead of just having a bunch of bureaucrats write everything. Too many of them are way too possessive about their writing and really don't see how bad it is.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 30, 2015, 11:38:25 AM
Is there a name for the rhetorical device of addressing a person as "someone" instead of as "you" (or even "I"), as in:
 Someone forgot to take the trash out last night.?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 30, 2015, 12:16:40 PM
I don't know of a specific term for that device, though it's clearly indirect speech that's heavy on irony and sarcasm.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on December 01, 2015, 10:25:27 AM
What is the root behind cobblestone and cobbler?  Do we have any other related words?

What is the linguistic relationship between a cobbler (shoemaker), a cobbler (fruit-based desert casserole) and a cobbler (one who arranges things together in a haphazard or impromptu manner)?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 01, 2015, 11:51:12 AM
Apparently the etymology of and relationships between all of those words are somewhat obscure or unclear. Cobble might be a backformation of cobbler, which might come from cob, meaning 'small lump'. But even if they're all related, it's hard to see what the semantic connection is.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on December 01, 2015, 02:07:06 PM
No idea if it's actual, but I can see a fairly simple relationship between the last two. A fruit cobbler is not an orderly desert like a pie; it's stuff sort of dumped into a pan and baked. It's stuff cobbled together with fruit, if you will.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on December 01, 2015, 02:26:49 PM
Maybe it's not so much that it's hard to see as that it's not clear; a fruit cobbler might be an unorderly mess, or it could be that it looks lumpy like a cobblestone street. But there's no direct evidence one way or the other that I can find, so it's all speculative.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 15, 2016, 07:43:39 AM
There aren't very many words that end in -uggle.  Smuggle, snuggle, struggle, juggle and . . . that's all I've got. Well, there's "puggle", the made-up name of a dog, I think a beagle/pug mutt.  And "muggle", another made-up thing.  It's a funny-sounding thing, "uggle".  Do the -uggle words have a common language of origin?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 15, 2016, 09:50:34 AM
Smuggle and snuggle are apparently formed with the frequentative suffix -le (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-le#English), and struggle might be too. This suffix denotes repetition, sometimes with a sort of diminutive connotation. So snuggle comes from snug + le, smuggle was borrowed from a Dutch or Low German word formed the same way from a root meaning "to sneak",* and struggle's origins are unclear, but it may have come from Old Norse, German, or Dutch.

Juggle is apparently unrelated—it's from the Old French jogler, meaning "to play tricks", and is ultimately from the same root as jocular.


*This smug root is the same root that gives us Smeagol, which can be translated as "Sneaker".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2016, 10:50:02 AM
Do any of y'all have a current account for the online AP Stylebook, or a print copy from 2015 or later? I have a specific question.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2016, 10:55:29 AM
I do! Ask away.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2016, 12:18:51 PM
Current AP opinion on the name bell hooks, please.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2016, 12:46:32 PM
I can't find anything on it, though I'm not very familiar with AP style. I just have access to the stylebook online.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2016, 01:18:09 PM
Hmm. No section on capitalization of names, with Bell Hooks and E.E. Cummings as examples?

Pretty sure there used to be one.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2016, 01:48:15 PM
Ah! I couldn't find an actual stylebook entry, which seems strange to me, but I did find this Q&A:

Quote
Q. What's AP style for lowercase names for people? We sometimes come across artists who prefer to use lowercase names or nontraditional capitalization for their names. AshlE? What's the rule on that? – from Aurora , Colo. on Tue, Oct 15, 2013
A. AP generally uses the preferred spelling of the artist, as in k.d. lang and e.e. cummings. Nontraditional capitalization is also observed for performers and others: rapper DMX.

Ironically, E. E. Cummings did not actually prefer the all-lowercase style.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2016, 01:57:34 PM
Right, it was his publisher who did.

Interesting. It appears AP has changed in the last few years, as has the NYT.

Thanks for looking that up for me!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
No problem.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Farmgirl on March 10, 2016, 06:44:15 PM
So I read on a grammar blog today that it should be properly (more accurately) called "Daylight Saving Time" not "Daylight Savings Time".

If so, is this not noted in AP Style? Because every headline or article I have read this week has it as Savings.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 10, 2016, 07:07:30 PM
AP style is definitely "saving". But just because it's in the stylebook doesn't mean every writer or copyeditor knows that.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 10, 2016, 09:07:29 PM
On the memo at work, it's Daylight Saving's Time.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 11, 2016, 12:06:39 PM
Hey, look: even the official AP Twitter account gets it wrong (https://twitter.com/AP/status/708299196042969088).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 11, 2016, 03:13:23 PM
Ha.  :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Farmgirl on March 13, 2016, 01:34:07 PM
Hey, look: even the official AP Twitter account gets it wrong (https://twitter.com/AP/status/708299196042969088).

 ;D - and it looks like they got royally reamed by their followers for their mistake.  Glad to see it! They need to be held accountable since so many use them to set the standard.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 22, 2016, 06:44:23 PM
Can one of you Latin experts answer this?

Quote from: one of my listservs
I am hoping you can assist me in determining the correct title for a Doctor in Pedagogy - honorary degree in Latin. In my search I have come across two different terms: Paedagogatus Doctoris and Pedagogiae Doctoris. Is this term gender specific? if so, in this case the recipient is male..
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 24, 2016, 11:33:07 AM
I'm not sure I buy this premise:
No one could "see" blue color in ancient times (https://www.facebook.com/techinsider/videos/481949642003397/).

They are claiming that because many languages didn't have a color for blue till more recent times. But some words that mean a form of blue go back thousands of years.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 25, 2016, 12:06:54 PM
You are right to be skeptical. The story as it appeared in the media is more or less a fabrication. Here are a couple of good Language Log posts on the subject:

Himba color perception (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=18237)
It's not easy seeing green (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=17970)

The posts are kind of long and technical, but here's the short version. Linguists have found that there is a pretty predictable pattern to the development of what they call basic color terms. In English, these are words like red, yellow, blue, black, white, pink, and so on. We may have names for more specific shades of those colors, but those are the umbrella terms. Maroon is a shade of red, lemon is a shade of yellow, and so on.

There are some languages that only have two basic color terms, which basically mean cool/dark/black and warm/light/white. If a language gets a third, it'll be red, the fourth and fifth are yellow and green in either order, the sixth is blue, the seventh is brown, and then after that we get terms like purple, pink, grey, and orange. (Some people have apparently questioned the universality of this order, but we'll just go with it for now.)

So first off, blue isn't even the last color to be named. Second, there's a big difference between having a word for a particular thing and being able to perceive or conceive of a thing. People who don't have a basic color term for blue can still see blue, but they might be slightly slower at picking out the blue than people who do have a basic color term for blue. (For the record, the picture of the "test" that the Himba people were given is apparently a fake.) The real tests that I've seen haven't been nearly so exaggerated, and the difference is one of speed, not of ability.

If you take this to its logical conclusion, then no English speaker should be able to see the difference between light blue and dark blue, or between any two different shades of blue, really. Greek has separate words for light blue and dark blue, so obviously they can see the difference while English speakers literally can't, right?

And if you're talking about the physical ability to see color, then you're basically arguing that this is a relatively recent development in human evolution. But how would you explain different groups of humans across the globe evolving the ability to see different wavelengths tens of thousands of years after humans left Africa? And why would that evolution seem to go hand in hand with the degree of advancement that a civilization attains? Because obviously it has nothing to do with the evolution of a physical ability.

As for words for blue going back thousands of years, unfortunately I don't know much beyond Indo-European linguistics. I do know that Proto-Indo-European had words for red and yellow and maybe a few others, but there was apparently no common word for blue, which is why all the different branches of Indo-European have unrelated words for it. Some of those words probably go back at least two or three thousand years. But I really don't know anything about ancient Egyptian, which they mention in the video, or any other ancient languages. But, again, even if no language had a basic color term for blue five thousand years ago, that wouldn't mean that people were literally unable to perceive the color blue.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on March 27, 2016, 11:36:26 AM
Thanks for all that info, Jonathon. The video seemed to me to be inaccurate on the surface of it, like it was glossing over some evidence, and that seems to be true. I've shared the two links with the folks I was discussing it with.

I guess it's just one more way pop science and inaccuracies get spread via the internet. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 30, 2016, 01:19:33 PM
Etymonline is failing me on this one: where does the -o in weirdo come from?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 30, 2016, 01:58:07 PM
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-secret-origins-of-nerd-dork-and-other-things-you-1482137598

Quote
The –o that turns weird into the noun weirdo is thought to come from the Middle English interjection "o," and over time become an diminutive suffix. It's the same process that turns kid into "kiddo."

Also: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/-o
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 30, 2016, 03:16:13 PM
Quote
also forms nouns, usually derogatory, for persons or things exemplifying or associated with that specified by the base noun or adjective ( cheapo; pinko; sicko; weirdo; wino).

Yeah! That's what I was looking for - the other words I could think of were sicko and wino; I wondered why the -o was a little bit negative in meaning.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Megan on March 30, 2016, 04:24:56 PM
What do people generally think about then as a conjunction? (e.g., "She took off her shoes, then danced in the rain.") CMoS is wishy-washy on it. I don't like it, but at least one of my clients thinks it's peachy-keen (which means this is more idle pondering than anything else, since I pretty much have to do what the client wants in that regard).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 30, 2016, 05:42:33 PM
http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Punctuation/faq0037.html
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 30, 2016, 10:01:34 PM
I'm not terribly bothered by it, at least in less formal situations. Inserting an "and" before it is fine sometimes, and other times it sounds a little stuffy.

So I guess I'm a little wishy-washy on it too.  ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Megan on March 31, 2016, 12:09:45 PM
Rivka, I had seen that answer previously, and it does address the issue of using then between independent clauses (which the client in question doesn't like). But that's kind of what I was referring to when I called it wishy-washy: "The comma is necessary because it indicates the implied conjunction and prevents a run-on sentence; a semicolon would be even better." Although if it's okay between independent clauses, I imagine it's okay separating a compound predicate.

Jonathon, interesting that you think it sounds kind of stuffy at times. :D (CMoS (http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Punctuation/faq0093.html) agrees with you at least a little bit on that.)

Eh, as I said, mostly idle pondering, since I have to do what the client wants, even though it looks wrong to me.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 09, 2016, 12:28:50 PM
Prefixes and suffixes are old hat for the English language, but infixes seem pretty new, like maybe they started in the last generation.

About when did the infix come into English?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 13, 2016, 12:57:37 PM
One of my linguistics professors told me that there is only one inflix used in the English language but he wasn't going to tell us what it was.

I figured out what it was and then challenged him, because I live in Utah and that's the exact sort of usage we would make new versions of. Abso-friggin-lutely.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 13, 2016, 01:27:20 PM
I'm not sure I'd say that the infix has come into English. Some languages (like Tagalog and other Austronesian languages) use infixation extensively to mark things like voice. Infixes in English, on the other hand, are pretty marginal—infixation with swear words because swear words are whole words, not affixes. And the only other ones I'm aware of are slang or ironic (like shiznit or edumacation), and they don't seem to serve a real grammatical or semantic function.

The OED dates obscenity infixation to the early twentieth century, but I'm not sure about the others.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 14, 2016, 02:45:12 PM
I just realized that we had fake infix "languages" that we used when we were kids. I heard several versions - one was called "Oppish" and was created by inserting the syllable "-opp," such as in "OppI'm Soppo hoppappoppy toppoo soppee yoppou!" The others were just a variation on the syllable you inserted. I always thought it was interesting when I was young how it sounded so complicated at first but then once you got the hang of it it came as second nature, both speaking and listening. But now I'm realizing we were just teaching ourselves a grammatical feature that didn't exist in English, but once it was learned, like any other foreign grammatical feature, our brains dealt with it just fine.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 14, 2016, 03:27:03 PM
I think my phonology professor used that language to illustrate infixation. Or maybe it was some other phonological or phonomorphological process.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Farmgirl on July 06, 2016, 06:31:06 PM
I just realized that we had fake infix "languages" that we used when we were kids. I heard several versions - one was called "Oppish" and was created by inserting the syllable "-opp," such as in "OppI'm Soppo hoppappoppy toppoo soppee yoppou!" The others were just a variation on the syllable you inserted. I always thought it was interesting when I was young how it sounded so complicated at first but then once you got the hang of it it came as second nature, both speaking and listening. But now I'm realizing we were just teaching ourselves a grammatical feature that didn't exist in English, but once it was learned, like any other foreign grammatical feature, our brains dealt with it just fine.

By that definition/example -- then isn't 'pig latin' also an infix?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 07, 2016, 08:20:10 AM
Not really. Pig Latin is formed by taking the onset of the first syllable (the first consonant or consonant cluster) and moving it to the end followed by "ay". It's not being put in the middle of the word. It does end up in the middle in a sense, but only because you're tacking something on the end.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 19, 2016, 10:00:41 AM
What is this "base" that everyone wants to touch with me?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on August 19, 2016, 10:26:05 AM
Folk etymology guess:  it's a baseball reference.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 19, 2016, 10:54:55 AM
Oh dear. Your parents never had the talk with you, did they?

The base is a very special place that people like to touch sometimes. It helps them feel more connected to other people. But because it's a very special place, you shouldn't let just anyone touch it. If someone wants to touch base with you but you don't feel comfortable with it, raise your hands and firmly say "NO! I don't want you to touch me there!" You may feel embarrassed about making a scene, but don't worry—it's more important to let someone know that you don't want to touch base with them.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on August 19, 2016, 04:57:46 PM
 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 28, 2016, 01:56:21 PM
I have to say I never heard of an infix till I read the above. I'm still not sure I understand what it is.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 28, 2016, 03:53:15 PM
A real infix is just like a prefix or a suffix, except that it goes in the middle. Imagine if, instead of adding -ed on the end of a verb to make the past tense, we added it after the first consonant cluster in a word. So instead of kicked we'd have kedick, instead of walked we'd have wedalk, and so on. That's apparently how a lot of Austronesian languages work.

The process of plugging vowels into a triconsonantal root in the Semitic languages is somewhat similar, though it's different because those are always vowels (or sometimes the lack of a vowel, if I understand right), and they're applied throughout the word, not just in a single chunk in a predictable place. I just learned that that process is called transfixation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 28, 2016, 03:57:53 PM
Thanks for the very clear explanation.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 28, 2016, 04:00:42 PM
No problem!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2016, 12:11:13 PM
I just spent my lunch break answering this four-month-old question (https://www.reddit.com/r/grammar/comments/4h79eh/raise_vs_rise_lay_vs_lie/) on Reddit about pairs like lay/lie and raise/rise. Here's the link to my answer (https://www.reddit.com/r/grammar/comments/4h79eh/raise_vs_rise_lay_vs_lie/d7jx0f5).

It may have been a huge waste of time, but I regret nothing.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 12, 2016, 01:53:56 PM
Tell me again why you're not active on Quora?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2016, 02:26:04 PM
Because I already have enough time-sucks in my life?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 12, 2016, 07:04:43 PM
So replace Reddit with Quora. Problem solved! ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2016, 07:21:21 PM
I don't actually spend any time on Reddit. I was googling something and came across that unanswered question, and I felt compelled to respond.

But if I were to spend time answering questions on some forum like that, I'd definitely choose Quora over Reddit. I signed up for Reddit a while back and quickly realized that answering questions there would be a totally Sisyphean task. There are just so many dumb questions and so many dumb responses, and I'm only one man.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 12, 2016, 09:32:45 PM
There are just so many dumb questions and so many dumb responses, and I'm only one man.
Yup, that's Reddit. Quora has plenty of dumb questions too, but not the sort of flood Reddit has.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Farmgirl on November 17, 2016, 03:04:11 PM
Jonathon - help me out here.

The guys (I work in network support area) keep writing documentation that says things like "The batch job errored at this point".

I keep telling them there is no such word as "errored" - you can say "erred" but I'm not sure even then they are using it correctly.  Probably better to say "the process encountered an error" or something like that.  But CAN you actually use "erred" as the past tense of error in these instances?  I see one web site that says you can't say "the program erred" because the program isn't making a mistake.   Confused.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 17, 2016, 04:14:59 PM
The problem is that error isn't a verb—except in technical jargon like this. It may not be in the dictionary, but I think it's probably pretty common in the IT world. So errored is a correctly formed past tense from a verb error meaning "to run into an error". It's just that it's jargony.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 17, 2016, 04:16:50 PM
I can't answer from a general grammar/usage perceptive. But I can tell you that using "errored" that way is absolutely typical for computer tech types. Sometimes "errored out".
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Farmgirl on November 17, 2016, 04:28:50 PM
You two are taking all the fight right out of me..   ;D ;D :innocent:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on November 17, 2016, 05:25:42 PM
Jargon is ugly, and frequently bizarre. But its is also often useful in ways that standard language may not be.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on November 17, 2016, 05:40:30 PM
Well said.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on January 19, 2017, 12:45:04 PM
My friend re-posted this on Facebook:

(https://scontent-mia1-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16002890_10154045386986891_8035714606715245387_n.png?oh=3607d82240a288dba56bb0445b53108c&oe=590FD3CA)

I'd like a second opinion from our resident expert. ;)

Just for the record. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 19, 2017, 12:56:29 PM
It's true that alot is not in the dictionary (all the online ones I tried either sent me to "allot" or "lot" or returned no results) and that it's considered a nonstandard form of a lot. But what's stupid about the argument is that we do actually write awhile, even though it's just the article a + while, when it's used adverbially, but not when it's used as a noun (for example, when it follows a preposition, as in for a while). So by the same logic, it should be okay to write I like it alot.

The only real difference is that awhile goes back to the 13th century, while alot is apparently a much more recent, since lot wasn't even used this way until the 19th century.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on January 19, 2017, 01:14:21 PM
Thanks! Good points.

I basically thought it was a trivial point of grammar to bother getting annoyed about. A lot of people use it, whether you think it's correct or not.

Edit: Ha, I should have said "alot." Just because.  >:D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: saxon75 on January 19, 2017, 02:52:34 PM
Seems like an appropriate time for a classic: The Alot Is Better Than You At Everything (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 19, 2017, 03:10:24 PM
Always appropriate.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on January 19, 2017, 03:23:21 PM
Ha, yeah.

And reading it, I realized I never actually type alot for a lot myself. Unless I'm talking about an alot. ;)

But I can still think of many other grammatical quirks that bug me more.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 19, 2017, 05:18:19 PM
Seems like an appropriate time for a classic: The Alot Is Better Than You At Everything (http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html)
Darn! beaten to it!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 23, 2017, 11:28:28 PM
Leaving aside the annoying blog set-up, I wondered what you thought of this: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/10-verbs-contronyms/?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 24, 2017, 08:41:22 AM
I think some of those are misleading or wrong. The two meanings of buckle aren't really antonymous, and the two cleaves are actually completely unrelated but homophonous words. The second sense of peruse is usually considered a misuse, but it's probably here to stay. There are a few others that I would say aren't quite antonymous, but close.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on January 24, 2017, 08:53:12 AM
I think some of those are misleading or wrong.
Ok, so it's not just me. Thanks.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Amilia on January 24, 2017, 09:19:55 PM
Stupid question:


. . . and the two cleaves are actually completely unrelated but homophonous words.

Quote from:  the article
Specifically, a contronym is a word with a homonym (another word with the same spelling but different meaning) that is also an antonym (a word with the opposite meaning).

Generally, contronyms became contronyms in one of two ways: (1) different words with different etymologies converged into one word,

Did the article misrepresent what a contronym was?  Or is there a subtle difference in what they are saying and what you are saying that I am not picking up on?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on January 25, 2017, 08:55:25 AM
I apparently missed that part, but yes, that's another thing I'd disagree with, especially because that post misuses its own definition.

The technical definition of a contronym is a word with two opposite meanings. And for two words to be homonyms, they have to be different words, like can the noun and can the verb. A single word with multiple meanings is not a set of homonyms; it's just a polysemous word. So either they're a contronym, or they're a pair of homonyms that just happen to have opposite meanings, but they can't be both.

I think cleave/cleave is the only pair of homonyms and the rest are actually the same word. It's just debatable whether the rest are true antonyms.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Amilia on January 25, 2017, 11:21:58 PM
Interesting!  Thanks!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 25, 2017, 06:40:49 PM
Can the adjective "piping" modify anything besides "hot"?  I don't think "plover" counts.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 26, 2017, 01:17:58 AM
Can the adjective "piping" modify anything besides "hot"?
Wouldn't that be an adverb?

The adjective means shrill. Like a child's voice, or the plover.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 26, 2017, 09:00:42 PM
Hmm. I'm not sure if a present participle can actually function as an adverb, but the OED has a subentry for piping hot and defines the phrase as an adjective. (And apparently the expression dates to around 1600. I had no idea it was that old.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 01, 2017, 09:09:12 AM
I was surprised to learn that the word "allergy" is only a little over a hundred years old.  It was first coined in 1911 by an Austrian doctor who was interested in immunology.

So what did people say when they wanted to talk about allergies before we had a word for it?  Was it just "I can't be around cats, they make me sneeze," or "I get itchy when I eat strawberries," or was there a common name for the condition?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 01, 2017, 03:55:12 PM
I looked up "hay fever" in the OED, and it said that the condition was first described under the name "summer catarrh". From what I can tell, "catarrh" was used to describe a variety of things, including allergies, though I couldn't say for certain that it was the normal term for such things, and I don't think it would cover allergic reactions like an itchy mouth.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: PSI on June 03, 2017, 06:08:30 PM
Ergh. I hope it's okay if I drop in and ask Jon a grammar question.  I've been transcribing for extra cash and some of my documents keep getting "corrected" in questionable ways.  Most of the problems I can sort out myself, but this one thing is really driving me crazy. Is it appropriate to use a comma after is in a sentence like this?

My opinion is, we should not eat soup for breakfast.

????
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 04, 2017, 10:37:31 AM
Of course it's okay to drop in and ask me a grammar question!

I think the problem with transcribing something like that is that it's pretty colloquial—in writing, you usually don't leave out the "that". I don't know of a specific rule in Chicago or any other style guide that addresses it.

I'm not sure a comma is really required there, but it might help with readability. Sorry that that was kind of a waffly answer.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: PSI on June 04, 2017, 12:40:54 PM
No, it's not waffly.  I think it's right, and it's probably why the QA added the comma.  It did make it more readable, and that might be the ultimate goal in typing a transcript.  But I left the comma out because I felt it wasn't grammatically correct to use one to replace "that".  Maybe an apostrophe?

My opinion is'we should not eat soup for breakfast.

Huh?  Huh?

[Grammarly hates this post.]

[Oh, wow.  Is that my signature?  Where did I get that from?]
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 04, 2017, 03:01:52 PM
An apostrophe seems very odd. A colon, maybe?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 05, 2017, 08:21:19 AM
Yeah, I definitely wouldn't do an apostrophe, and a colon seems too formal to me. The comma might not be strictly correct—though I'm not sure that it's actually wrong—but it seems to me that it's a lot like the comma before a quotation: "My opinion is, 'We should not eat soup for breakfast.'"

And anyway, I think it's okay to bend the rules a little bit when transcribing speech.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 30, 2017, 10:56:57 AM
Someone posted elsewhere that he learned from reading a certain set of (British) novels that you need an apostrophe when you write phone - or 'phone, as he wrote in his post. The references I checked showed this is not currently accepted usage in modern British English, but I'm guessing it might have been at some point. I can even see why it might have been.

The references I saw also used "bus" (shortened from omnibus) as an example of a word that does not need an apostrophe. But I think I may have seen in written as 'bus in some older literature, actually.

Any information on the history of this usage?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Porter on August 31, 2017, 12:35:52 PM
I've seen that usage in places where a word is shortened, but the shortened word is not considered a "real" word yet.

How 'bout that?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on August 31, 2017, 01:00:40 PM
I don't know much about the history except that it was a thing at one point. But a little browsing in the OED shows that the apostrophe before bus was infrequent, and it appears to have disappeared by the end of the 19th century. Phone mostly follows the same pattern, though it has apostrophized citations in 1941, 1975, and 1997. I was pretty surprised by that. And the last apostrophized citation for cello appears in 1930.

So it looks like it was an occasional thing in the 1800s but pretty rare after that. I think it's pretty much only in highly colloquial forms like 'bout and 'cause that we see it today.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 31, 2017, 02:51:15 PM
That's pretty much what I expected. The uses I was aware of were pretty much from the 19th century. I'm surprised to see a citation as recent as 1975 and 1997, too. Thanks for looking into it. I was curious, after having someone post who seemed to think it's still correct usage.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 31, 2017, 02:52:26 PM
I've seen that usage in places where a word is shortened, but the shortened word is not considered a "real" word yet.

How 'bout that?
That's probably what was going on, originally, when telephone was shortened to 'phone and omnibus to 'bus. At least, that's my uneducated guess.  :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 20, 2018, 10:30:14 AM
In other news, a language podcast I listened to recently made me start thinking about the word "moist" again. To be perfectly honest, I don't understand what the fuss is about. The word never bothered me in of itself and I never would have thought twice about it if it hadn't been for all the comments and jokes about it I have heard in recent years. It's just a word.

So what's the deal? Why all the fuss about it and why is it considered an unpleasant word?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 20, 2018, 11:08:06 AM
I am 100% with you on this.

I have a sneaking suspicion they are making it up and seeing if we are gullible enough to fall for it. ;)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 20, 2018, 11:12:36 AM
I really don't get it either. My hypothesis is that someone didn't like the word for whatever reason, and the idea that it's inherently gross has spread like a virus. Someone tells you it's gross and gives you some gross examples, and then you think, "Oh, yeah, that is gross."

Honestly, I don't think it's even the grossest word in its semantic realm. Damp seems grosser to me, but I still don't have the same aversion to damp that some people have to moist.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 20, 2018, 02:33:47 PM
Someone tells you it's gross and gives you some gross examples, and then you think, "Oh, yeah, that is gross."

Yeah, exactly.

It's cultural exposure. I wouldn't have given it a second thought, otherwise. Now I can't shake the notion that it's gross, even though I never actually thought it was.  :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 20, 2018, 02:34:24 PM
I am 100% with you on this.

I have a sneaking suspicion they are making it up and seeing if we are gullible enough to fall for it. ;)

Clearly, at least some of us are.  :D
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 04, 2018, 11:01:16 AM
What is the origin of the expression of being "in good odor"? I just used it and my son asked me about it. I told him it was synonymous with being "looked upon with favor", but involved a different part of the face.

I can't find an etymology, though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on July 04, 2018, 11:50:06 AM
That's an expression? I've literally never heard that one. I wonder how common it is. Maybe it's regional?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 04, 2018, 02:58:59 PM
It's somewhat old-fashioned. One place I found that uses it is a book from 1906.

But it is still in use. http://www.grubstreet.com/2010/05/first_look_who_feels_anthony_b.html
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Kate Boots on July 05, 2018, 07:25:30 AM
Someone posted elsewhere that he learned from reading a certain set of (British) novels that you need an apostrophe when you write phone - or 'phone, as he wrote in his post. The references I checked showed this is not currently accepted usage in modern British English, but I'm guessing it might have been at some point. I can even see why it might have been.

The references I saw also used "bus" (shortened from omnibus) as an example of a word that does not need an apostrophe. But I think I may have seen in written as 'bus in some older literature, actually.

Any information on the history of this usage?

Were they the Peter Wimsey novels?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 05, 2018, 08:40:34 AM
What is the origin of the expression of being "in good odor"? I just used it and my son asked me about it. I told him it was synonymous with being "looked upon with favor", but involved a different part of the face.

I can't find an etymology, though.

The OED doesn't say anything specific about its origin. They just list it under "extended uses", though some of the other figurative uses of "odor" are a little illuminating. Some of them seem to mean something like "reputation", "esteem", or "aura". Those figurative senses go all the way back to the 1300s, so I'm guessing they already existed in French and then came along with the word when it was borrowed into English.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 05, 2018, 12:49:35 PM
Some of them seem to mean something like "reputation", "esteem", or "aura". Those figurative senses go all the way back to the 1300s, so I'm guessing they already existed in French and then came along with the word when it was borrowed into English.
Ah!

Thanks.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on July 05, 2018, 03:03:32 PM
Someone posted elsewhere that he learned from reading a certain set of (British) novels that you need an apostrophe when you write phone - or 'phone, as he wrote in his post. The references I checked showed this is not currently accepted usage in modern British English, but I'm guessing it might have been at some point. I can even see why it might have been.

The references I saw also used "bus" (shortened from omnibus) as an example of a word that does not need an apostrophe. But I think I may have seen in written as 'bus in some older literature, actually.

Any information on the history of this usage?

Were they the Peter Wimsey novels?

Nope.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on September 03, 2019, 10:20:58 AM
my friend just texted me asking what part of speech "ladies" is in the following sentence:
"That sounds fun, ladies"

I knew of a vocative comma, so I google that and found a site that says that the word is actually called a vocative. I wasn't sure I trusted a random website on the internets, so I was wondering if Jonathon could give me a rundown of what's going on?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 03, 2019, 12:18:46 PM
If you're asking about part of speech, it's just a noun. But it sounds more like you're asking about its role in the sentence (like subject or object or whatever), which is indeed a vocative. A vocative is always some type of noun phrase, whether it's a common noun, a name, or a pronoun, and it's used to address or invoke a person or thing.

Some more examples:

Nice job on that car stereo, sweet clementine!
Hey, you, do you know what time it is?
Hi, Mom.
Guys, where do you want to go for dinner?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on September 05, 2019, 03:35:58 PM
I'm reviewing an article in which the writer broke up the word "finally" thusly:
Fi-
nally

That's not correct, is it?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 05, 2019, 06:52:30 PM
I never remember all the rules regarding hyphenating words to fit them on lines. But the main one I do remember is that hyphens should only go where the dictionary has dots. (That is, at the syllable breaks.) M-W has fi·​nal·​ly, so I think that may make fi-nally legal.

I agree that it looks weird though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on September 05, 2019, 07:12:42 PM
Yeah, your explanation makes sense.

And, yes, it looks weird.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2019, 09:23:58 AM
Rivka is correct.

The only thing that looks weird about it to me is that at my work, we don't allow any breaks of two letters or less (though Chicago allows two on the first line and three on the second).
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on September 06, 2019, 11:41:07 AM
Yeah, after Rivka posted, I realized that was the same rule I learned.

Not allowing breaks of two letters or less sounds like a good rule to me, though. The two letter break does look very odd.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 06, 2019, 04:57:26 PM
Not allowing breaks of two letters or less sounds like a good rule to me, though. The two letter break does look very odd.
Yeah, it makes sense to me too. It's not one of the ones I can't remember though. Those had to do with which syllables were accented or something like that.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 25, 2020, 05:34:19 PM
In various newspapers and other online sources, I have seen all of the following:
COVID-19
Covid-19
covid-19
covid 19
COVID 19
covid19
COVID19

Which is correct?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on March 25, 2020, 06:29:51 PM
I think WHO and the CDC use "COVID-19", and that's what AP style recommends. I haven't seen recommendations from other style guides. Also, it's pretty common in British style to lowercase acronyms or just use an initial cap, so "Covid-19" is common there.

As for the other variations, I'm not really sure who's using them or why. I'm not sure you could say that one style is correct and the others are incorrect, but it looks like "COVID-19" has the most official backing.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on March 26, 2020, 12:56:50 AM
Fair enough. Thanks!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on July 02, 2021, 01:50:01 PM
Just had a debate with my friend about supplemental vs supplementary vs supplement. We were talking about angles that add up 180 degrees which I was calling supplemental and she asked if it should be supplementary. After some googling I came to the conclusion that either works and she came to the conclusion that it should be supplement (and that supplemental is the most wrong, based on the absence of "complemental", while "complimentary" does exist). I definitely don't think it should be supplement and the explanation I came up with is that supplement is a noun and supplemental/ary is an adjective; I can point to that angle and say "you're a supplement" but if I'm talking about all different kinds of angles, the ones that add up to 180 degrees are supplemental/ary angles. I don't know if that is actually the correct explanation because I'm very insecure about my knowledge of the parts of speech. So Jonathan, to distract you from your recent hearing loss, can you tell me if the grammatical difference between all three of those words?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 02, 2021, 05:28:16 PM
Angles that add up to 180 degrees are supplementary. Neither supplement nor supplemental would be correct.

Source: Every math book I have ever had. Also Khan Academy and a zillion other math websites.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 02, 2021, 06:45:37 PM
Yeah, I think I've only ever heard "supplementary" and "complementary" when talking about angles.

As for the grammar of these words, supplement is the most straightforward—it's just a noun meaning essentially "a thing that adds to another thing". Supplemental is just the noun with the suffix -al tacked on the end, which turns it into an adjective. It looks like it was actually used to refer to angles and triangles starting around 1700, but it began to be displaced by supplementary around 1800. Supplementary is also just supplement with an adjective-forming suffix tacked on the end, so there's not much of a meaningful difference between the two. One word may be preferred in one context and the other word in another (for instance, I would say "supplemental income", not "supplementary income"), but it seems a little random.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on July 03, 2021, 08:56:15 AM
thanks guys!
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 06, 2021, 11:25:32 AM
Supplemental is just the noun with the suffix -al tacked on the end, which turns it into an adjective. It looks like it was actually used to refer to angles and triangles starting around 1700, but it began to be displaced by supplementary around 1800.
So apparently I just don't have any old enough math books for a counterexample. ;)

(My dad has a handful of really old ones, but I'm not sure if any pre-date the 1800s.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on July 15, 2021, 07:19:50 AM
I have another question! What is the etymology of the word "phew". I just typed it a bunch of times in a conversation and so it suddenly looked incredibly bizarre to me. Is it just an onomatopoeia?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 15, 2021, 09:24:44 AM
I don't think onomatopoeia is quite the right word, since you're not imitating a sound with your mouth. The Online Etymology Dictionary (https://www.etymonline.com/word/phew#etymonline_v_14845) calls it a "vocalic gesture originally expressing weariness, disgust, etc.," while the OED says it's "imitative, representing the action of puffing or blowing away with the lips." So I think it would make more sense to think of it as an exaggerated sigh or something along those lines.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: sweet clementine on July 16, 2021, 04:13:34 PM
Ah, that makes sense. Though I'm curious how it ended up with a ph at the beginning. Just to differentiate it from "few" cause that seems a lot more considerate than English usually is.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 16, 2021, 10:12:54 PM
Hmm. Good question, but unfortunately, I don't have a good answer. It never appears to be spelled with an "f" in the OED, but it also records forms like "pew" and "pfew", so I'd guess that sometimes there was a little bit more of a "p" or people just felt like the "ph" was more evocative somehow.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 21, 2021, 05:20:09 PM
When did "daylight" become a verb? (Actual quote from a recent NYT article: "It’s important that we daylight that.")
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on July 22, 2021, 09:56:31 AM
I've never heard that before and can't find any hits for it in the Corpus of Contemporary American English (https://www.english-corpora.org/coca/),* so I'm going to say . . . just a few days ago?


*Though everything is machine tagged for part of speech, so it's possible that it's in there but has been mistagged.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 22, 2021, 11:36:59 AM
Thank you for confirming that.

We must stamp this obscenity out! ;) (Or, you know, pretend it never happened, which is probably more effective.)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on July 22, 2021, 11:44:53 AM
I wasn't aware of it before, but now that you've daylighted it for us, I'll get right on that.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on July 23, 2021, 10:01:43 AM
 :p
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 22, 2023, 04:24:08 PM
There's demagogue and pedagogue and synagogue. Are there any other agogues that I'm not thinking of?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on June 22, 2023, 04:38:33 PM
Only a handful, and none that I've ever encountered before. (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_terms_suffixed_with_-agogue)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on June 22, 2023, 10:36:41 PM
I knew emmenagogue (although I had to check to be sure I was remembering its meaning correctly). But the others . . . .  :wacko:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on June 26, 2023, 10:46:01 AM
I only know the ones Tante mentioned.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 20, 2023, 08:37:19 PM
Why is a canard an unfounded rumor in English and a duck in French?
Is there a relationship between the two words?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 22, 2023, 09:38:20 PM
m-w conjectures:
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on August 22, 2023, 10:00:28 PM
Wanna buy a duck?

A what?

A duck!

Does it quack?

(If you have no idea what I am referring to, see this (https://egadideas.com/1990/01/do-you-want-to-buy-a-duck/) (among many others).)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 22, 2023, 10:31:32 PM
I never heard of that one.  It seems like possible mispronunciations would be the main appeal to school children.  Does canard rhyme with anything potentially shocking in french?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on August 22, 2023, 10:41:40 PM
It seems like possible mispronunciations would be the main appeal to school children.
Nah. It's just silly and fun, especially once you have a chain with lots of people. Like this! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl3UT7HcdQU)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on August 23, 2023, 05:07:26 AM
m-w conjectures:

Interesting, pooka. Which dictionary did you check?
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: pooka on August 24, 2023, 12:00:53 AM
m-w.com
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 11, 2023, 11:11:19 AM
Why is the typeset lowercase "g" so messed up.  I can't even draw it.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on September 11, 2023, 01:48:02 PM
There was a study about it. (https://hub.jhu.edu/2018/04/03/two-versions-of-letter-g-brain-science/)

But this has more on the reasons. (https://www.magicaliam.com/articles/why-do-the-alphabet-letters-of-a-and-g-have-different-forms-in-print/)
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on February 06, 2024, 06:49:49 AM
Why on earth would someone use a comma after "include" in this sentence? (Including only the part of the sentence leading up to and after "include".)

"...pain treatment strategies during procedures for newborns and infants include, breastfeeding, skin-to-skin and..."

Am I wrong to think no comma is needed after include?
It's a quote pulled from another publication and quoted in an article I'm reviewing, so if it's wrong it was probably published wrong. Unless the article writer typed the quote incorrectly.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Brinestone on February 06, 2024, 07:07:07 AM
Yes, the comma is incorrect.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Jonathon on February 06, 2024, 09:27:14 AM
Yeah, it's wrong. I have no idea why someone would put one there, though.
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: rivka on February 06, 2024, 04:21:47 PM
Because some people think they are meant to put a comma anywhere they would pause when speaking the sentence aloud. >_<
Title: Re: Dear Expert
Post by: Ela on February 07, 2024, 08:50:52 PM
Ha! Yeah, something like that.

Folks use commas inappropriately a lot.