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Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Jonathon on October 17, 2005, 12:24:28 AM

Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2005, 12:24:28 AM
Go over to the English section (http://www.galacticcactus.com/english) and read my brief but (hopefully) informative rant about historical linguistics!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 17, 2005, 01:21:59 AM
:cool:  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 17, 2005, 07:02:37 AM
Quote
*penkwe

I'm so happy I know what the asterix means now :).
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Mr. Anderson on October 17, 2005, 09:25:04 AM
I never was very good at Rubics Cubes.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 17, 2005, 09:27:49 AM
I was looking forward to being taught some words that seem to be related but aren't. :(
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on October 17, 2005, 09:27:50 AM
Teshi, what does it mean?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 17, 2005, 10:27:54 AM
It means... *ahem*

Quote
A word whose existance has never been confirmed (because no one ever wrote it down, or, if they did we have no record of it now) but whose existance has been inferred.

However, it also seems to be used with words which could logically exist, but never did. Like *digged as in "I *digged a hole." At least, I've seen it used in that way although the above definition is the one I remember.

So "penkwe" presumably existed, and people assume that it did, but there is no proof.

:):)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 17, 2005, 10:35:53 AM
Where are you quoting from?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 17, 2005, 10:37:16 AM
Er, partially from me and partially from my linguistics text book-thingy EDIT: and also from my professor.

Why, am I wrong :( ?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2005, 10:37:59 AM
Digged used to be the standard form; it shows up in the Bible.


Porter: I can provide some examples. Just give me a little while.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 17, 2005, 10:39:49 AM
You give examples, then. I don't know that much. I was just trying to think of a quick example...
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2005, 10:46:33 AM
How about *drog as a past tense of drag? :tongue:  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 17, 2005, 10:48:52 AM
Nargh. That was the one I was trying to remember when I came up with "digged."

:tongue:  :whistling:  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2005, 07:11:45 PM
For Porter. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/015696158X/ref=sib_vae_pg_122/002-4743326-6953661?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=lava&p=S04B&twc=2&checkSum=oUzUKzPKLUjyTxUXh0f63Y2QMNU4oaKtvoMhWw5%2Bts0%3D#reader-page) The few pages following that are chock full of really bad historical linguistics.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 17, 2005, 07:32:03 PM
Are you sure you gave me the right link?

Quote
The worship of the Indo-European and Hebrew gods as volcanic mountains may explain the great importance of the fire rituals amon both the Brahmins and the Levites.  It may also explain the name o fYahweh, so long a puzzle to Bible scholars...
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2005, 07:33:57 PM
Yes. Starting with the third paragraph down ("In Latin . . ."), it talks a lot about etymology.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Mr. Anderson on October 17, 2005, 07:39:26 PM
It's telling us to sign in or sign up.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2005, 07:49:00 PM
All you need is an Amazon account. But if that doesn't work, here's another gem (http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/wave13c.htm):
Quote
Another curious connection is the actual name of the Levites. The Hebrew name for these priests, Lewi and Levi are much the same word. It is here that Ms. Stone makes a rather interesting series of relationships that may have significance later. She points out that, in Latin we have lavo which means to wash in a stream which flows, while lavit means to pour. In Hittite, lahhu also means to pour. In French we have laver, to wash and in German we have lawine, meaning avalanche and the English word lavish. Levo in Latin means lift and is especially associated with the sunrise. In Sanskrit lauha is "glowing redness," while lightning is lohla. In German we have lohe, meaning blaze or flame, while in Danish lue means to go up in flames. In English, the word lava, the German lave, and the French lave, each meaning the blazing molten mass that pours from a volcanic mountain, may give us the key to the two concepts in unity: that which is light and flaming, while still pouring almost as a liquid at the same time. Sons of Light and Fire. The mountain top Weather God who issues from DEEP within the Earth!

At Qumran, where was found the oldest extant Hebrew texts, there was a scroll discovered that was completely new to Biblical scholars entitled The Scroll of the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness. This text consists of the plans for a battle that is about to be fought. This scroll reveals that the Levites were still in control at that time, and may be still in control at the present!

The name of the Hebrews as Yehudi, or Judah, is rather close to the Sanskrit word for warrior: Yuddha.

As Ms. Stone points out, if these speculations, supported by so much circumstantial evidence, hold up to further investigation, then what are we to make of the Aryan versus Jew stance of WWII? It becomes more than a tragedy, it becomes utterly ironic that the monster of monotheism created by the Hebrews turned around to devour them. On the other hand, maybe it was intentional. It is even beginning to look like the Hebrews, as an ethnic group, were actually created for "use" by the members of the Control System. And we have to keep in mind also, that the same Control System seems to be behind the development of Kaballah and the many related occult/mystical practices, in which case we have to ask ourselves why?

But, before we move one, let us make one last observation: It was sometime before and directly after WWI that nasili was being accepted as the real name of the Hittite language, and Nesa or Nasa, their first capital. The original name of the Hittite invaders may have been Nesians or Nasians. Nuzi was the capital of the Indo-European nation of Mitanni. And this brings up another connection between the Hittites and the Hebrews, the use of the word nasi for prince from which we derive nazarene. We can't help but observe here how close to these words is the term Nazi.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on October 17, 2005, 10:21:49 PM
I'm amazed Ms. Stone didn't try to link Hittite with Hitler.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 18, 2005, 08:32:28 AM
Yeah, that would seem to the natural conclusion.  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 18, 2005, 08:37:01 AM
I'm confused, JB -- which of the connections she made are legit, and which aren't?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 18, 2005, 11:50:21 AM
Hittite is an Indo-European language, so it's probably safe to assume that its word for "pour" is related to the Latin word for "pour." The French word obviously comes from Latin. These are legitimate.

But then she suddenly jumps to the German word for "avalanche"—why? There might be a semantic connection, but it's not explained. Where did the German word come from? Maybe it's borrowed from French, or maybe it has an entirely different and unrelated origin. We don't know.

The English "lavish" doesn't add much—it's borrowed from French and descends from the French and Latin words already listed. Legitimate, but not particularly meaningful.

Then suddenly she jumps to a seemingly unconnected Latin word meaning "to lift." There's no evidence presented to back up the claim that it's has anything to do with the sunrise, but she appears to use that to show that it's connected to other words referring to things like lightning and lava. Which meaning came first, though? If the word means "to lift," then the sunrise connotation probably came later. This would indicate that it's an unrelated word that's associated with something glowing and fiery, not a glowing, fiery word that came to mean "to lift."

Then there's some more jumping around and random listing or words that start with the letter l, but if there's any connection of meaning, it's pretty tenuous, and it's never explained. But the whole argument seems to hinge on the word lava, and that's where any semblance of legitimacy completely breaks down.

You see, the word lava is only a few hundred years old, and it comes from the Italian word for "to flow." It's just another form of the same Latin word listed at the beginning, and it has nothing to do with fire or glowing or lightning or any of those other meanings.

The other huge and completely illegitimate jump is the one from the Hebrews to the Indo-Europeans. The "evidence" for the origin of the Levites is based on words from a completely different language family. There is no known relationship between the two families. They might as well be taking about various birds in an effort to explain the origins of Homo sapiens.

They've taken a smattering of word-snapshots from a handful of languages and tried to string them together. However, they never once talk about the origins of any of those individual words, about the sound changes or semantic shifts, or about the genetic relationships of the languages being discussed.

The whole book (from the previous post) and this whole article are nothing more than racist, sexist pseudo-science.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 18, 2005, 11:58:34 AM
Quote
he whole book (from the previous post) and this whole article are nothing more than racist, sexist pseudo-science.
What article?  Yours? o_O
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 18, 2005, 12:07:50 PM
I think he means the one he quoted beginning with "another curious connection...".
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 18, 2005, 12:19:02 PM
But that's from the same book, isn't it?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 18, 2005, 12:19:50 PM
Yes, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to be taken directly from that book, but rather plagiarized. I was just providing it as an alternative link for those that couldn't get to the first one.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 18, 2005, 12:40:46 PM
Now, for contrast, let's look at the Indo-European words for five that I mentioned.

First of all, the words all have the exact same meaning, so we don't have to worry about that. Secondly, we already have a good idea that some of the words within families are related (five and fünf, pãch and panj—even some of the others look somewhat similar).

But once you have the idea that they may be connected, you have to dig into the history and prove how. Lots of those words start with a p (and sometimes end with p), but the Germanic words have f. A comparison of Germanic and other Indo-European words shows that there's a sound correspondence: father and pater, fish and pisces, for and por, and so on. So we know that when other languages have p, Germanic has f.

But then there's the Romance words beginning with an s or ch sound. However, we know from records that the Latin was quinque. It seems that the original p must have become a qu from the influence of the second qu and probably the influence of the preceeding number, quattuor. (Actually, the change from p to qu or k isn't unheard of, and neither is the opposite, qu to p, but I'll get to that in a minute.)

So at some point the Latin quinque must have lost the first u, becoming *kinque. In Vulgate Latin, /ki/ became either /si/ or /chi/, so that explains the Romance languages today.

Now back to the problem of kw and p. The original Indo-European sound wasn't really like the qu sound today. It was more like a k pronounced with your lips close together, and in some languages, it changed to just being pronounced with the lips (p).

This happened in all the Brythonic languages (like Welsh) some dead Italic languages (cousins of Latin that are long dead), and in proto-Germanic only when kw was followed by e. So for those languages, the original word becomes pempe. Then the Germanic p > f rules applies and we get femf and so on.

In the Gaelic languages (the other half of the Celtic branch), kw became simply k, and all ps became k, too. This explains the Scottish cóig.

In some other languages, kw became t. I don't understand this sound change as well, but I believe it only occurred when followed by e, much like the Germanic change. So Greek and Russian get a t instead of a q at the end.

The Indo-Iranian changes are simple. Much like the Romance languages described earlier, the w drops out, and then ke becomes che. In some languages, ch then became j (this is simple voicing of the consonant).

A couple common changes that run through most of these words is the loss of the final vowel (nothing surprising—look at all the silent final vowels in English and French) and the disappearance of the n. Nasal consonants have a tendency to disappear over time. First the preceding vowel becomes nasalized (and the actual consonant disappears), and then the vowel denasalizes. Two of these examples (cinq and pãch) are currently in the nasalized vowel stage.

So that, in a nutshell, is what a decent etymological analysis looks like. See the difference? You start with a wide selection of words and then trace them back step by step until you arrive at the common ancestor. There's no picking and choosing words to support your hypothesis while ignoring others that don't. There are no huge leaps when it comes to semantic shifts or sound shifts. Even the weird changes involving kw have shown up in other language families, so there's corroborating evidence. Browsing through a dictionary for 30 seconds disproves that book's assertions, whereas this analysis is watertight.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Teshi on October 18, 2005, 12:43:20 PM
:) Cool.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on November 17, 2005, 10:00:48 PM
That was more interesting than I expected it to be.  :P  :)  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 18, 2005, 01:44:24 PM
Thanks . . . I think. :unsure:  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on November 18, 2005, 01:55:53 PM
:lol:  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 15, 2005, 11:28:00 AM
*bump*

I finally got around to writing a new one.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 09, 2006, 04:56:45 PM
*bump again*

Do my self-esteem a favor and go read it! (http://www.galacticcactus.com/english/)


Note: To any people who may have recently used the word "defenestrate" on other forums, I assure that I wrote this before I saw that conversation. This wasn't intended to make fun of anyone.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on February 09, 2006, 05:22:29 PM
The link doesn't work for me.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 09, 2006, 05:35:57 PM
I don't know why it wouldn't.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on February 09, 2006, 05:42:58 PM
Huh.  It's working now.

<_<
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 10, 2006, 06:10:28 AM
:P  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 04, 2006, 10:35:15 AM
It's been several months, but I finally got around to writing a new article (http://www.galacticcactus.com/english/arrant-pedantry) on my English blog.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on September 07, 2006, 04:01:43 AM
I made a very spare comment on the blog; there was already a truckload of comments.  I guess after reading the other comments I wanted to metion the use of "Was [verb]-ing" instead of "[verb]-ed" in third person past narratives.  Somehow the discussion on "that" brought it up, just in terms of both being grammatical, but the more economical phrasing being preferred by some.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 07, 2006, 09:44:08 AM
That "alright" was there just for me, wasn't it.

 :P  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 07, 2006, 09:53:16 AM
Not just for you. :)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on September 07, 2006, 09:55:20 AM
I noticed it too. :)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 04, 2007, 09:35:20 PM
If anyone's interested in the story of how I wrote to the staff of The Chicago Manual of Style about a horrible inaccuracy and received an even more horribly incompetent response, you can read it here (http://www.galacticcactus.com/english/editing-chicago).
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 11, 2007, 08:50:15 PM
*bump*

Is anyone interested in these? Because I wrote an inflammatory new post (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2007/04/06/scriptivists/) about prescriptivism the other day, and not a single soul responded to tell me that just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's right. :(
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 11, 2007, 08:55:28 PM
I am, but I'm terrible about checking blogs, regardless of how much I like them.

I like the post. I disagree with you on fewer and less, though.

Oh, and just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's right! And gerroff my lawn!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on April 12, 2007, 06:33:57 AM
Although I might object to the "nazi" thing, I thought you were right on.  Forgive me for ignoring; I wasn't aware that I ought to be reading your blog.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on April 12, 2007, 07:21:16 AM
Quote
I am, but I'm terrible about checking blogs, regardless of how much I like them.
ditto
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 07:30:52 AM
Quote
Although I might object to the "nazi" thing, I thought you were right on.  Forgive me for ignoring; I wasn't aware that I ought to be reading your blog.
But of course you should be reading my blog!

I will admit that I still have somewhat mixed feelings about the term "grammar nazi." On the one hand, it does indeed seem offensive to associate a bunch of grammatical fussbudgets with a political party that committed genocide and started a huge, bloody war. But on the other hand, it's a term that many of those fussbudgets use to describe themselves, and it seems so far removed from the original sense that they're not even the same word, even though they look alike and are related. But maybe I would feel a lot less ambivalent about it if I were Jewish.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 07:33:33 AM
Quote
I am, but I'm terrible about checking blogs, regardless of how much I like them.
Have you ever tried a feed reader like Google Reader? I love it. But then again, I've got about two dozen blogs, columns, and web comics in it, so I check it daily. If you're using it to just keep up on one or two things, you'll probably have trouble remembering to check Google Reader just like you had trouble remembering to check the blogs.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 08:23:29 AM
I avoid feed readers deliberately. This way, when I don't have time I don't know what I'm missing.

And every few weeks I get bored late at night, or just feel the need to catch up, and check on everyone's lj/blogspot/blgger/etc. Your blog and Ruth's are on that list -- both your blogs, actually.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 09:06:44 AM
Quote
I disagree with you on fewer and less, though.
Care to elaborate?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 09:21:45 AM
I think it is a useful distinction.

Then again, I think losing the subjunctive is a crime against humanity . . . ;)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on April 12, 2007, 09:25:09 AM
Rivka -- I can't think of any situation where that distinction gives added clarity.  Could you give me an example?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 09:27:42 AM
Not offhand.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 09:32:48 AM
I guess I just don't see what it adds to the language to specify whether something is discrete or not. Plus, we don't make the distinction when talking about more of something. How useful is that?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 09:40:23 AM
You're right.

We should.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 09:40:45 AM
And just so you know, I'm not trying to pick on you or bait you or anything. I just honestly don't understand what's useful about such distinctions. I could understand if someone said they wanted to hang on to it for tradition's sake or some such, but that doesn't feel like a valid argument, I suppose. Really, I want to understand where prescriptivists are coming from. I want to know if there is really any evidence that this is a useful distinction.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 09:41:53 AM
Quote
And just so you know, I'm not trying to pick on you or bait you or anything.
I know. :)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 09:42:22 AM
Quote
You're right.

We should.
But why should we? What does it add to communication to express the ideas "more milk" and "more people" with different words instead of using more for both?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 09:43:50 AM
I find myself unable to express why. Probably if we hadn't lost some of the nuances of language along the way I'd be able to find the right words. ;)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on April 12, 2007, 09:45:40 AM
Quote
Not offhand.
Like Jonathon, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but what was the usefulness you were referring to when you said you think it's a useful distinction?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 09:50:43 AM
Quote
I find myself unable to express why. Probably if we hadn't lost some of the nuances of language along the way I'd be able to find the right words. ;)
I'm not sure how serious you're being, but I don't really buy that. Are you really saying that Old English speakers had more power to communicate than we have today, and that Proto-Indo-European speakers had more power to communicate than Old English speakers?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 11:50:38 AM
Quote
I'm not sure how serious you're being
*cheerfully* Not particularly.

And I'm not terribly invested in this. While I do think we should keep the fewer/less distinction, if it becomes accepted not to (as "hopefully" officially now means what it did not used to), I will grit my teeth and bear it.

Meanwhile, I will cheerfully gripe about "10 items or less" signs.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2007, 05:41:03 PM
*sigh*

I have to admit that I find it a little frustrating that I can never get a clear answer to these sorts of questions.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 12, 2007, 07:33:55 PM
I find it mildly frustrating that I cannot seem to express the reason for my conviction.

Life is pain. ;)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on August 05, 2007, 05:48:36 PM
I just wrote a column (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2007/08/05/errant-pedantry/) on the English side. When Jonathon created the English blog, the idea was for both of us to post there, but until now, I haven't been motivated enough to actually write something. Well, now I have. :pirate:  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 05, 2007, 06:21:53 PM
They compared it to the SAT?  :blink: That takes chutzpah.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on August 06, 2007, 03:44:23 AM
I don't know that grammarians make mistakes so much as that it's an artform where interpretations may vary.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on August 06, 2007, 07:09:25 AM
No, there were definite mistakes in this. She had some opinions I disagree with, but there were some clear things (the extra comma, the missed passives, the inconsistency about redundancy) that were objectively wrong with the quiz.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on August 06, 2007, 08:04:26 AM
The extra comma (which I didn't see) is obviously wrong.  And she should have been more careful about the passives, though I would have to look at it again and see if they were passive or participial in nature.  But you said yourself that redundancy is very contextual.

I wonder if she was relying on Microsoft Word to indentify passive.  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 01, 2007, 11:26:26 AM
*bump*

I just wrote something for the first time in several months. You should all be so proud of me.

link (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2007/10/01/the-passive-voice-is-corrected-by-buzzword/)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 01, 2007, 11:32:05 AM
Woah.  That sure looks different than how I remember it.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 01, 2007, 11:39:43 AM
I redesigned it a few months ago, thinking that maybe that'd prompt me to write more. We can all see how well that worked. <_<  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on October 01, 2007, 12:04:29 PM
"Buzzord fixed passive wording."

There, I really fixed it.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 01, 2007, 12:14:03 PM
:lol:
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 01, 2007, 02:35:36 PM
It would be cool if there were something that would automatically correct the passive-aggressive voice.

See if you can work on that, why don't you.  I'd do it myself, but I'm too busy being late for meetings and forgetting to pick up my husband's dry cleaning.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on October 01, 2007, 02:38:21 PM
Quote
I want you to make something that would automatically correct the passive-aggressive voice.

I'd do it myself, except I don't want to.
It ain't automatic, but it's a start.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 01, 2007, 03:09:50 PM
:D
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 08, 2007, 01:59:20 PM
Look at me go! I'm on a roll! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2007/10/07/one-fewer-usage-error/)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 02, 2008, 02:20:16 PM
A new one on the joys of source checking erroneous quotes for customers who probably couldn't care less (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2008/01/02/source-checking/).
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 02, 2008, 02:49:29 PM
I'm awfully quotable.  How's about I lay some quotable stuff on you, and you can quote me on it?

Tomorrow is the second day of the rest of your life.  Prepare for it today.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 02, 2008, 03:30:57 PM
Have you ever considered a career writing fortunes for fortune cookies?

Speaking of which, on New Year's Eve I got a fortune that read, "Love, or Money? Or neither?" What the crap kind of fortune is that?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on January 02, 2008, 03:35:10 PM
I'd say that I get an actual fortune in my fortune cookies less than 10% of the time.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 02, 2008, 04:07:36 PM
Oh!  You are fortune's fool!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on January 03, 2008, 09:34:41 AM
Because I expect a fortune cookie to actually have a fortune in it?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on January 03, 2008, 12:46:26 PM
Porter:

You will meet someone today who will solve one of your financial problems.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 03, 2008, 12:48:45 PM
Porter:

That roast pork lo mein you just ate?  That wasn't pork.  It was the other other white meat.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: goofy on January 16, 2008, 04:42:04 PM
Quote
And I'm not terribly invested in this. While I do think we should keep the fewer/less distinction, if it becomes accepted not to (as "hopefully" officially now means what it did not used to), I will grit my teeth and bear it.

Meanwhile, I will cheerfully gripe about "10 items or less" signs.
Standard English has never had the fewer/less distinction as prescriptivists state it. less has been used with count nouns for a thousand years. In 1770 someone named Baker wrote that he didn't like it, and somehow his opinion was repeated by many writers as a rule. But there is no grammatical or historical justification for it.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on January 16, 2008, 04:47:30 PM
Goofy -- who are you?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 16, 2008, 04:51:39 PM
Someone who somehow came across my Arrant Pedantry blog several months ago and who has a blog of his own (http://bradshawofthefuture.blogspot.com/) dedicated mostly to cool and obscure etymologies.

Welcome!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on January 16, 2008, 04:54:06 PM
Cool.  I just assumed that everybody else already knew who he was.

Welcome, Goofy.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on January 16, 2008, 04:55:55 PM
So, did y'all get the science/shit connection from the same source, or were you his source?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: goofy on January 16, 2008, 04:57:08 PM
Quote
Someone who somehow came across my Arrant Pedantry blog several months ago and who has a blog of his own (http://bradshawofthefuture.blogspot.com/) dedicated mostly to cool and obscure etymologies.

Welcome!
er, yes. Hello!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: goofy on January 16, 2008, 05:41:30 PM
Quote
So, did y'all get the science/shit connection from the same source, or were you his source?
uncanny coincidence.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Noemon on January 16, 2008, 09:27:07 PM
I'm slightly late is saying this, but I just became aware of your existence, so...welcome to  the forum, goofy!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 04, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
Update! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2008/02/04/how-i-became-a-descriptivist/)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on February 05, 2008, 08:17:53 AM
Quote
But I think the final straw was annoyance with a lot of my fellow editors. Almost none of them seemed interested in doing anything other than following the strictures laid out in style guides and usage manuals (Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage was somehow exempt from reference). And far too often, the changes they made did nothing to improve the clarity, readability, or accuracy of the text. Without any depth of knowledge about the issues, they were left without the ability to make informed judgements about what should be changed.

Well said.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 05, 2008, 08:28:21 AM
Thanks.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: goofy on February 05, 2008, 11:36:08 AM
Check out the comment!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 05, 2008, 11:42:09 AM
I know! I was pretty excited when I saw that. I wonder how he came across my blog.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on February 05, 2008, 11:44:27 AM
WHOA!!!!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Farmgirl on February 05, 2008, 01:46:49 PM
Quote
I know! I was pretty excited when I saw that. I wonder how he came across my blog.
Hmm.. Well, if you Google Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, your blog comes up on page 4.   So unless he was really digging..
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 05, 2008, 09:39:30 PM
Pfft. One of his AA's jobs is probably Googling "Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage" and finding interesting new hits.

The real question is whether (s)he compiles the list weekly or daily.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 06, 2008, 07:58:52 AM
AA?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on February 06, 2008, 08:00:41 AM
I had never seen that non-Churchill quote before.  That's funny!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Farmgirl on February 06, 2008, 08:42:52 AM
Quote
AA?
Administrative Assistant.

That's what they call a secretary these days.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 06, 2008, 08:48:10 AM
I know that secretaries are called administrative assistants. I just didn't know that administrative assistants were called AAs.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on February 06, 2008, 08:55:36 AM
It's because they all drink to dull the pain.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on February 06, 2008, 09:08:48 AM
Yes.

[rant]And then your boss decides that you do more than just that, and starts refferring to you as "Executive Administrator" when they were just looking for "Executive Secretary", but for some reason that's not very "PC" today.

And, I added those quotes, not for emphasis, but to imply that it's not my idea to use these stupid titles.

Dangit!  What's wrong with calling me a secretary?[/rant]
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 06, 2008, 09:17:53 AM
You know, "secretary" used to be a prestigious title until it became a job typically filled by women. I find that sad.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 06, 2008, 01:42:33 PM
I think Condolezza Rice ought to be called the Administrative Assistant of State, in that case.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 06, 2008, 07:01:07 PM
Quote
I just didn't know that administrative assistants were called AAs.
Well, now you know.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 06, 2008, 11:12:33 PM
I'm eating the Condolezza Rice Pudding that I made for lunch today!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 19, 2008, 08:07:54 PM
Update! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2008/03/19/rules-are-rules/)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 19, 2008, 08:56:18 PM
Interesting and insightful. :)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on March 20, 2008, 07:53:23 AM
Cool RSS feed too.  Thanks again.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: goofy on March 20, 2008, 08:06:25 AM
Pullum:

Try to imagine biological education being in a state where students are taught that whales are fish because that is judged easier for them to grasp; where teachers disapprove of tomatoes and teach that they are poisonous (and evidence about their nutritional value is dismissed as irrelevant); where educated people accuse biologists of "lowering standards" if they don't go along with popular beliefs. This is a rough analog of where English grammar finds itself today. The state of relations between the subject as taught by the public and the subject as understood by specialists is nothing short of disastrous. The fact is that almost everything most educated Americans believe about English grammar is wrong. In part this is because of misconceptions concerning the facts. In part it is because hopeless descriptive classifications and antiquated theoretical assumptions doom all discussion to failure. Amazingly, almost nothing has changed in over a hundred years. The 20th century came and went without affecting the presentation of grammar in popular books or the teaching (what little there is of it) that goes on in schools. Today's grammar books differ in content only trivially from early 19th-century books.

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Summer_2...1/lecture1.html (http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Summer_2004/ling001/lecture1.html)
 
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 20, 2008, 08:06:31 AM
Rivka and Neutros: Danke und bitte.

goofy: I love that quote. I think it captures the situation quite well, unfortunately.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on March 20, 2008, 08:10:30 AM
That's interesting.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 02, 2008, 09:16:45 PM
Finally! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2008/06/02/numbers-and-hyphens/)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 02, 2008, 09:50:48 PM
High-5!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 13, 2008, 08:58:01 PM
On the proper orthography of logos (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2008/07/13/logography/).
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2008, 08:18:08 PM
On the participial adjective impacted. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2008/09/06/impacted/)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: The Genuine on September 08, 2008, 09:20:18 AM
The word "impacted" always reminds me of constipation.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Noemon on September 08, 2008, 10:47:28 AM
It always reminds me of Star Wars.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 08, 2008, 01:41:10 PM
Really? What part? (Or is this a joke I'm missing?)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Noemon on September 08, 2008, 01:51:01 PM
Nope, not a joke.  When the x-wings are doing their run on the trench, one of the pilots describes his shot as having "impacted on the surface".  I learned the word from that scene, and whenever I hear the word I see a flash of the scene in my mind's eye.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 08, 2008, 08:37:03 PM
Ah, right. I couldn't remember where that word appeared in the movie.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 27, 2009, 09:42:34 PM
Hyperliteral goodness! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2009/01/27/do-you-agree-that-we-ask-for-your-consent/) Or perhaps just plain old literal goodness.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Zalmoxis on January 28, 2009, 09:14:03 AM
Good column. And useful too since I am considering doing the HR block free e-file. Now I know which button to click.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 10, 2009, 11:24:13 PM
In which I bash National Grammar Day (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2009/03/10/reflections-on-national-grammar-day/).
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on March 11, 2009, 09:11:58 AM
Bash 'em again!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on March 11, 2009, 10:29:22 AM
Martha Brockenbrough annoys me on a fairly regular basis.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 24, 2010, 09:02:49 PM
Look! At long last, a new post on Arrant Pedantry (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2010/03/24/scriptivists-revisited/)!
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 24, 2010, 09:20:12 PM
*ponders*
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Scott R on March 25, 2010, 04:38:56 AM
That's very well-written, Jonathon.  I enjoyed it quite a bit, despite being a little less than interested in the topic.

You made me more interested in the topic...so good job.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 25, 2010, 09:13:53 AM
Rivka: Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

Scott: Thanks. :)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 25, 2010, 09:29:59 AM
Quote
Rivka: Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
Yes, but if our knees bent the other way, how would we ride a bicycle?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 25, 2010, 10:04:54 AM
:D  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on March 25, 2010, 05:59:49 PM
My mom was fond of debunkery, so I have swung the other way toward being a prescriptivist.  I'm certain that's the source of 90% of my tendency.  I can break out the descriptivist saw when it suits me.  Why else would I have put 4 years of higher education into linguistics?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 25, 2010, 06:06:57 PM
My mom was fond of escarole and professional tennis.  She's coming to Passover Seder this year, and I think I'll surprise her by putting escarole in the matzah ball soup.   It would be a real surprise, though, if I put tennis balls in the matzah ball soup.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on March 25, 2010, 08:10:15 PM
I can't figure out how Tante's post is related, but I also can't stop giggling about it. Go figure.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 12, 2010, 09:13:45 PM
Why can't you say "10:30 o'clock"? Discuss. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2010/05/12/1030-oclock/)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 12, 2010, 09:25:58 PM
See, the advantage of being a prescriptivist is that the "why" is rather besides the point.

Because it's WRONG, darnit! That's why! ;)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on May 12, 2010, 09:51:23 PM
Why is it wrong? :P
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 12, 2010, 10:17:58 PM
See rule 1.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Scott R on May 13, 2010, 06:07:04 AM
Well, we don't talk about Fight Club.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 13, 2010, 08:18:46 AM
Quote
Why can't you say "10:30 o'clock"? Discuss. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2010/05/12/1030-oclock/)
Discuss here or there?  I discussed there.  But no one else is discussing.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 13, 2010, 09:13:14 AM
Quote
See, the advantage of being a prescriptivist is that the "why" is rather besides the point.

Because it's WRONG, darnit! That's why! ;)
And this is my single biggest problem with the standard prescriptive approach to language: it all boils down to a bunch of ipse dixits.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 13, 2010, 09:18:09 AM
Quote
Discuss here or there?  I discussed there.  But no one else is discussing.
Either. Both. C'est tout le même.
 
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 13, 2010, 10:28:01 AM
Quote
Quote
See, the advantage of being a prescriptivist is that the "why" is rather besides the point.

Because it's WRONG, darnit! That's why! ;)
And this is my single biggest problem with the standard prescriptive approach to language: it all boils down to a bunch of ipse dixits.
I was kidding, you know. I actually find the why fascinating.

And "ipse dixits" can be my new thing I learned of the day. :)
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 13, 2010, 10:35:43 AM
Quote
I was kidding, you know. I actually find the why fascinating.
Yeah, I know. But most people simply assume that something is wrong because the rule says so, without ever stopping to question why the rule exists in the first place.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 13, 2010, 10:47:20 AM
I totally should make a screen name of Ipse Dixit.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 13, 2010, 10:55:41 AM
(I hate myself for this, but I can't resist.)

That's what she said.
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 13, 2010, 11:13:22 AM
She did? Where?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 13, 2010, 11:34:00 AM
:P  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 13, 2010, 10:36:06 PM
Quote
I totally should make a screen name of Ipse Dixit.
I can't believe you actually did that.  :lol:  
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 14, 2010, 07:30:29 AM
It took? I changed it here at work, but I've got this computer so locked down that it was getting errors when I tried to change it.

:cool:
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 14, 2010, 09:39:20 AM
Indeed.

[/Teal'c]
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 14, 2010, 09:55:33 AM
Quote
Quote
I totally should make a screen name of Ipse Dixit.
I can't believe you actually did that.  :lol:
Huh? Where?
Title: New column-type thingy
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on May 14, 2010, 09:57:12 AM
Good Reads. It seemed appropriate.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 10, 2010, 08:22:29 PM
Look! An update! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2010/08/10/gray-grey-and-circular-prescriptions/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 11, 2010, 05:31:05 AM
That's weird, over the past year I've thought about grey and gray several times.  Firefox kept telling me "grey" was an incorrect spelling, yet no matter how many times I changed it to "gray" I still felt like grey wasn't wrong.  It's in dictionary.com and google so that's good enough for me.

I feel like grey looks better than gray.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 11, 2010, 06:44:29 AM
Hey me too! I've always thought grey sounded nicer. And greyer.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 11, 2010, 07:03:09 AM
Hey me too! I've always thought grey sounded nicer. And greyer.
I couldn't a grey more.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Zalmoxis on August 12, 2010, 01:15:51 PM
That was a really good post, Jonathon. And I too am fond of using grey.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on August 12, 2010, 03:23:11 PM
I always thought of grey as a Britishism, along with colour and mum.  I think one big reason you see that fall off in the late 19th century could be the tendency to refer to the confederacy as the grays.  It could be that gray was preferred in one region over the other and when it became synonymous with the confederacy, that region's spelling became prevalent.  Trouble is, I don't know who was more responsible for referring to "The Blue and the Gray." 

I also don't know why people also called the confederate uniforms butternut.  But I really liked the Dave Barry column where he was sent to the Hardware store to get some gray paint.  His wife wanted something the color of Pierce Brosnan's eyes, but they wound up with Confederate dead.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 11, 2010, 07:42:58 PM
A topical post inspired by Jesse's post in the Military English thread (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2010/11/11/attributives-possessives-and-veterans-day/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 11, 2010, 08:09:50 PM
Very nice.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 11, 2010, 08:13:11 PM
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: The Genuine on November 11, 2010, 08:22:39 PM
Whoa!  I'm your muse tonight!   :flower:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 11, 2010, 09:02:08 PM
You amuse me many nights, Jesse.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Nighthawk on November 12, 2010, 10:23:12 AM
Get a room you two!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 28, 2011, 09:05:58 PM
Just for Annie! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/06/28/temblor-trouble/) (And anyone else who wants to read more about the word temblor, of course. But I think I made most of these points on the forum a while back.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on June 28, 2011, 10:48:14 PM
:wub:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 01, 2011, 11:25:22 PM
Look! A new post! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/08/02/who-that-and-the-nature-of-bad-rules/) I wrote most of it tonight, so if it sounds jumbled or confused, it's probably because I'm tired. Feedback, as always, is appreciated.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 01, 2011, 11:35:37 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 02, 2011, 12:15:29 AM
I added a highly astute comment!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 02, 2011, 08:36:53 AM
Your comment was, indeed, very profound.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 07, 2011, 04:18:32 PM
And look! Another one! (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/08/07/its-just-a-joke-but-no-seriously/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 07, 2011, 05:21:07 PM
Ooh, dissing Lynne Truss.

:P
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 07, 2011, 05:26:45 PM
Only because she deserves it. :pirate:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 07, 2011, 05:30:37 PM
Now you are dead to me.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 07, 2011, 05:59:00 PM
Remember that time she spoke at a BYU forum? Did the entire linguistics department boycott?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 07, 2011, 06:01:49 PM
Good question. I'm sure the editing faculty attended, even if the linguists didn't. I wasn't able to go because I had to work.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 07, 2011, 07:02:02 PM
I wonder if she had a question-and-answer at the end and got the full weight of descriptivism cast down upon her.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 07, 2011, 07:12:44 PM
That would have been awesome, but I'm pretty sure it didn't happen. I think I caught the tail end of it on BYU Broadcasting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 08, 2011, 08:00:41 AM
I can't imagine it was worse than when Michael Moore came to Utah Valley University. He was actually quite effective at manipulating a crowd, but it was very mixed crowd with much of it hostile.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 08, 2011, 09:26:40 AM
Oh, I doubt there was any hostility towards Lynne Truss. She's only disliked by very small subset of the population, whereas Michael Moore is much more polarizing.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on August 15, 2011, 05:31:14 AM
I commented at the blog.  The thing is that there is something inherently funny about how much linguists, editors, and other wordies care about this stuff. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 24, 2011, 09:41:57 AM
Ben Zimmer wrote about temblor and mentioned me! (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/2952)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on August 24, 2011, 10:19:50 AM
Yay!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 24, 2011, 10:32:46 AM
I knew you before you were famous.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 24, 2011, 10:41:14 AM
Congratulations, Jonathon. You have arrived!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on August 24, 2011, 10:48:39 AM
I totally thought it was tremblor back in the day, which I also thought was pretentious.  I just mentally inserted the r.  I didn't know it was temblor until Annie was screeding about it and I tried to correct her spelling. :blush:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 24, 2011, 12:13:28 PM
Yay!
I knew you before you were famous.
Congratulations, Jonathon. You have arrived!

And it's thanks to Twitter, which I signed up for just a few weeks ago. I noticed a huge spike in traffic at Arrant Pedantry and my Spreadshirt store (eighty hits in one day instead of maybe one), and it was apparently because someone mentioned my shirts on Twitter. So I signed up and started following some people. Between that first spike at the beginning of August and now, I've sold eight shirts, which is more than I'd sold in the previous year and a half. And when a couple of people mentioned the word "temblor" yesterday, I replied with a link to my post. Voila! I'm internet famous.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 24, 2011, 12:45:11 PM
That really is awesome Jonathon. I hope Mr. Zimmer found your blog interesting enough to warrant repeat visits and mentions. And yes the surge in traffic was probably nice. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on August 24, 2011, 04:22:18 PM
 :wub:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 30, 2011, 11:03:39 PM
New post pondering the worth of prescriptivism. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/08/30/does-prescriptivism-have-moral-worth/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 08, 2011, 07:56:41 PM
More thoughts on the value of prescriptivism (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/09/08/the-value-of-prescriptivism/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 08, 2011, 08:33:54 PM
It's great you are being noticed by these writers and that they muse on your musings.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 08, 2011, 08:37:28 PM
I know! It's pretty exciting, and it gives me a lot more motivation to write as well as stuff to write about.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on September 09, 2011, 07:45:35 AM
I love the comments on McIntyre's blog.  It's just so refreshing for comments to be semi intelligent.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2011, 02:41:06 PM
Smelly Grammar (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/09/12/smelly-grammar/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on September 12, 2011, 02:49:50 PM
Smackdown!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2011, 02:55:05 PM
An editor at Merriam-Webster (the "octopodes lady (http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/0015-octopus.htm)", according to her profile) retweeted my tweet about my column and added "Well said." ;D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 12, 2011, 02:56:24 PM
Nice going Jonathon. Stories being presented as real events smell bad too.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 12, 2011, 04:06:35 PM
An editor at Merriam-Webster (the "octopodes lady (http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/0015-octopus.htm)", according to her profile) retweeted my tweet about my column and added "Well said." ;D

I remember her.  The cute one with the hands that Scott didn't like, and that I did like.

I just watched her again.  I still like the hands.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on September 12, 2011, 06:19:42 PM
You're running with the big dogs these days, JB.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 12, 2011, 06:27:47 PM
Quote
You can’t come to a better understanding of the truth by combining apocryphal anecdotes with a little misguided grammatical analysis.
Amen.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2011, 06:50:54 PM
Whoopsie. Just noticed a typo.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 15, 2011, 11:07:09 AM
My blog has been nominated for the Best Blog of 2011 at Grammar.net (http://www.grammar.net/contest-2011)!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 15, 2011, 11:46:56 AM
My blog has been nominated for the Best Blog of 2011 at Grammar.net (http://www.grammar.net/contest-2011)!
Wooo! When it comes time to vote, you know where to go to ensure victory. >: )
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 15, 2011, 12:06:16 PM
*tents fingers*

Excellent.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 15, 2011, 01:03:16 PM
Good luck.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on September 15, 2011, 06:14:32 PM
It's definitely the best grammar blog I read.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 15, 2011, 06:23:56 PM
Thanks!

I think.  <_<
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 16, 2011, 09:27:12 AM
Poll: what is a namesake? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/09/16/what-is-a-namesake/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on September 16, 2011, 09:39:47 AM
Also, what is a namesnake?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on September 16, 2011, 09:41:09 AM
100% of all voters (so far) agree with me!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 16, 2011, 09:44:25 AM
Not any more, hotshot.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on September 16, 2011, 11:14:18 AM
Doh!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on September 16, 2011, 12:15:55 PM
I always felt that the person you were named after was your namesake because it was for his sake you were named.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 16, 2011, 12:19:23 PM
I'm part of the losing team. :(

edit: Apparently Annie and I are on a lot of teams together these days.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 16, 2011, 01:21:56 PM
I cast my vote, so now the poll is running neck and neck, with the correct answer getting just as many votes as the incorrect one.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on September 19, 2011, 07:40:53 PM
Sorry if my comment spoils the purpose of your poll.  I tried to edit it but I can't figure out how.  Feel free to remove that first sentence.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on September 20, 2011, 08:03:23 AM
Next time you do a poll, you should say "And this is for Posterity's sake, so please... be honest."
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 20, 2011, 09:44:40 AM
 :D

I'll keep that in mind.

———

I'm running a contest (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/09/20/contests/) on my blog, sponsored by Stack Exchange English Language and Usage (http://english.stackexchange.com/). Suggest a topic for a future post and you could win a Kindle 3G.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on September 20, 2011, 12:24:34 PM
Quote
Voting for this contest starts on September 2th6
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 20, 2011, 12:25:47 PM
Well, that's weird. Thanks for catching it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 20, 2011, 01:15:09 PM
You could do a column on how even the most live-and-let-live, anything-goes, who-am-I-to-say-what's-right Descriptivist will come out firmly and resolutely prescribing Only One Space After A Period.  It's not a regional or cultural difference to be embraced.  It's Just Wrong.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 20, 2011, 01:21:50 PM
Was that a real suggestion? Because if you want to be entered, you should post it in the comments.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 20, 2011, 02:10:05 PM
I think it is a real suggestion, but I doubt it's Kindle material.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 20, 2011, 02:12:31 PM
Well, I'll be the judge of its kindleworthiness.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 20, 2011, 02:18:38 PM
Do you accept bribes?  Payola?  Soup?  Macaroons?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 20, 2011, 02:28:32 PM
I will gladly accept any or all of those things, but I have to warn you that it won't improve your chances of winning.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on September 20, 2011, 11:06:45 PM
How about if I give you a kindle?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 21, 2011, 09:10:57 AM
DEAL!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on September 21, 2011, 12:57:59 PM
I love that with the avatar.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 21, 2011, 04:53:00 PM
That Taylor Bradford guy easily has the best topic under consideration. You might as well end the contest now.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 21, 2011, 05:40:56 PM
More fascinating than the Great Two-Space vs One-Space After the Period Shift?  I think not!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2011, 02:48:17 PM
It's not wrong, but you still shouldn't do it. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/09/23/its-not-wrong-but-you-still-shouldnt-do-it-2/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 23, 2011, 04:51:58 PM
Quote
you’ll help a few of those crazies come around.
Ouch.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2011, 04:59:32 PM
Too much?

And hey, if you're crazy, you probably need to come around. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 23, 2011, 05:14:11 PM
Considering that you convinced me on the "they" thing, and while I still dislike that use of "hopefully", have stopped correcting it, just how far around did you want me to come? :P
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2011, 05:20:33 PM
Um . . . all the way? :innocent:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 23, 2011, 05:32:00 PM
The better to aim?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2011, 06:02:31 PM
Now I feel like I'm missing something.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on September 24, 2011, 12:43:26 PM
"Closer, closer, Ah, just a little back.  There.  Now don't move!"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 25, 2011, 10:13:46 PM
What she said.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 26, 2011, 09:12:34 AM
Vote for Arrant Pedantry in Grammar.net's Best Grammar Blog of 2011 contest! (http://www.grammar.net/contest-2011/nomination-page)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 26, 2011, 10:11:20 AM
I did!  You can return the favor by voting for my entry for Next Big Blog Post!


(Mind you, this is good-natured jocularity, not me attempting to apply actual pressure for you to reciprocate.  Of course, I wouldn't expect that.  Just so you don't get the wrong idea, or anything.  I should stop talking now, right?  Because the more I explain how I didn't do it, the guiltier I look.  I do that all the time, protest my (actual) innocence so much that I convince people I did something wrong.  It's OK to nest parentheses like that, right?  I mean, it was OK in math class, and that was just down the hall from English class, so it probably applies to both.  Gah!  I really need to get some sleep.  I'm on a jag.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 26, 2011, 01:18:14 PM
Thanks! Apparently Grammar.net is down right now, so I can only assume you guys are overloading their servers with votes.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 26, 2011, 09:07:24 PM
Yeah, like whenever The Cactus is down it's because we all are posting too fast and furious for the Internet to keep up. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 04, 2011, 11:12:54 AM
I've chosen winners for my contest (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/10/04/winners/). Bob Scopatz got second prize.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 04, 2011, 11:18:31 AM
Mazel tov to the winners!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on October 04, 2011, 12:17:39 PM
*goes off to cancel paypal payment*. I am very disappointed Jonathon. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 04, 2011, 12:23:06 PM
Maybe if you'd sent the payment a little earlier . . .
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on October 04, 2011, 12:50:46 PM
Maybe if you'd sent the payment a little earlier . . .
Maybe if you have mentioned it was *really* going to be a Kindle Fire . . .
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 04, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
I didn't even know there was such a thing until a few days ago. :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on October 04, 2011, 12:57:12 PM
Well then it's a good thing you are running a linguistics blog, not a clairvoyance one. Too bad though, the latter is infinitely more useful!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 04, 2011, 02:17:57 PM
Maybe if you'd sent the payment a little earlier . . .
Maybe if you have mentioned it was *really* going to be a Kindle Fire . . .

Fire schmire, I know a guy makes his own char cloth.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2011, 08:29:22 PM
Continua, Planes, and False Dichotomies (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/10/06/continua-planes-and-false-dichotomies/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 06, 2011, 08:57:36 PM
Quote
who “lives” in the bottom-left quadrant?
The ghost of Robert Lowth.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2011, 09:02:58 PM
 :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Dobie on October 07, 2011, 01:26:11 PM
"as many facts and as much evidence" not "as much facts and evidence"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 17, 2011, 02:27:35 PM
They and the Gender-Neutral Pronoun Dilemma (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/10/17/they-and-the-gender-neutral-pronoun-dilemma/), based on Bob's second-place topic suggestion.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 19, 2011, 03:57:51 PM
Rules, Regularity, and Relative Pronouns (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/10/19/rules-regularity-and-relative-pronouns/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 19, 2011, 04:31:22 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 28, 2011, 12:20:18 PM
My post on singular they was mentioned on Copyediting.com (http://www.copyediting.com/news-occupy-singular-they).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on October 28, 2011, 01:05:07 PM
Ah, yeah! Jonathon Owen, totally in position to fill the void Noam Chomsky will leave when he finally dies.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 28, 2011, 02:37:07 PM
Thanks, but I must disagree. Completely different subfields.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on October 28, 2011, 02:42:08 PM
Thanks, but I must disagree. Completely different subfields.
We aren't talking about subfields, we're talking about dominating the entire field of linguistics. You are language!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on October 28, 2011, 03:49:51 PM
Nobody's going to fill Chomsky's void. We're just going to fill it up with dirt and pass on pretending nothing happened.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 28, 2011, 08:52:39 PM
I think I've become popular enough for random people to hate me. Some guy on Twitter asked me, "If your deal is prescriptiveness, isn't your user name a self-undermining misnomer? Or do you just hate AP style?"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on October 29, 2011, 07:31:31 AM
 :huh: Does he even read your blog?

(I mean, yeah, you DO hate AP style, but I don't see what that has to do with your username.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 29, 2011, 08:18:47 AM
Well, on Twitter my user icon is just AP. And I'm guessing no, he doesn't read my blog.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on October 29, 2011, 10:43:46 AM
So what is the twitter handle?  I'm trying to decide if AP is strongly enough associated with style to suggest you might have anticipated that association.  To me, AP is associated with classes first and then news.  Was there a fake AP style twitter thing for a while?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 29, 2011, 10:48:02 AM
My Twitter handle is ArrantPedantry (https://twitter.com/#!/ArrantPedantry). And here's FakeAPStylebook (https://twitter.com/#!/FakeAPStylebook). It's still a thing.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 29, 2011, 08:51:30 PM
New post: "Whose Pronoun Is That? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/10/29/whose-pronoun-is-that/)?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 06, 2011, 12:48:26 PM
"Till Kingdom Come (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/11/06/till-kingdom-come/)", on the decline and fall of a preposition.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 06, 2011, 10:28:46 PM
Distinctions, Useful and Otherwise (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/12/06/distinctions-useful-and-otherwise/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on December 07, 2011, 08:11:05 AM
When I'm no longer uninterested, I'll peruse your latest post. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: KarlEd on December 07, 2011, 11:42:48 AM
Distinctions, Useful and Otherwise (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/12/06/distinctions-useful-and-otherwise/)
I enjoyed that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 07, 2011, 11:49:02 AM
Thanks, Karl!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 07, 2011, 12:05:55 PM
Karl's here?  When did Karl get here?


Hi Karl!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on December 07, 2011, 01:26:03 PM
Karl's very fickle.  Hard to pin down.

Or at least his current avatar is.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: dkw on December 07, 2011, 02:24:41 PM
I enjoyed that one also, and read a few back that I'd missed.  How is your research project coming?  Mom doesn't read over here (that I know of) but she's a retired professional editor* and I could point her this way if you still need people.

*This is how I justify the fact that I still have my mommy check my homework even in grad school.  She's the best proofreader on the planet.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 07, 2011, 02:43:35 PM
I've gotten about a dozen volunteers, though only four have returned their edited manuscripts to me. I think I'll be able to write my thesis just fine without them, though it'd be nice to have that extra data to make sure my results and conclusions are valid. From what I've seen so far, though, the changes from the professional editors are pretty comparable to the ones made by the students. But if she'd like to participate, I'd be glad to have her.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: KarlEd on December 07, 2011, 08:18:55 PM
Karl's here?  When did Karl get here?


Hi Karl!

<waves>
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 08, 2011, 05:12:06 AM
I enjoyed that one also, and read a few back that I'd missed.  How is your research project coming?  Mom doesn't read over here (that I know of) but she's a retired professional editor* and I could point her this way if you still need people.

*This is how I justify the fact that I still have my mommy check my homework even in grad school.  She's the best proofreader on the planet.

I proofread my mother's doctoral dissertation when I was in high school.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on December 08, 2011, 06:41:56 AM
I enjoyed that one also, and read a few back that I'd missed.  How is your research project coming?  Mom doesn't read over here (that I know of) but she's a retired professional editor* and I could point her this way if you still need people.

*This is how I justify the fact that I still have my mommy check my homework even in grad school.  She's the best proofreader on the planet.

I proofread my mother's doctoral dissertation when I was in high school.
Sounds like she got quite stressed out towards then end, almost to the point of insanity some might say. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 08, 2011, 07:48:03 AM
I was her proofreader all through her doctoral education, so pretty much through most of my high school career.  This was before spellcheck, so I kept a dictionary at hand throughout.  It was a way that I could help out and contribute.  That and fixing supper and driving carpools and picking up groceries.  The oldest child tends to get the most responsibilities.  I don't think she ever had my younger sibs do any proofreading.

Anyway, I liked doing it.  In my last job, I was the go-to girl for proofing and editing.  In my current job, they don't believe in proofreading or editing (apparently).  Sets my teeth on edge, it does.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 23, 2011, 02:39:45 PM
Which Hunting (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2011/12/23/which-hunting/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: The Genuine on December 23, 2011, 05:22:47 PM
Great article.   :)

I'm a stickler when it comes to which Rule.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 23, 2011, 10:16:44 PM
Thanks, and I'm sorry to hear that. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on January 11, 2012, 10:53:19 AM
I was just looking up the origin of "fish or cut bait".  I used "cut bait" to mean quit, but as I thought about it I realized it might actually mean being relegated to a menial task.  Wikipedia suggests that is the original meaning, but it was in a phrase "fish, cut bait, or go ashore."  

I guess I'm posting it in this thread because it is informed by the question of whether an older usage is necessarily better.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 11, 2012, 11:08:39 AM
I've never heard either of those phrases and have no opinion.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 11, 2012, 12:17:24 PM
I'm surprised.  I thought they were common parlance.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 11, 2012, 12:39:37 PM
Maybe it's a regional thing. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 11, 2012, 02:07:21 PM
Must be a pretty big region. "Fish or cut bait" is definitely a common expression to my ears, primarily used when talking about a relationship getting serious -- or not.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 11, 2012, 02:24:10 PM
Look. I'm winking. Look at my eye.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on January 11, 2012, 05:41:30 PM
Your mom is common parlance.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 11, 2012, 05:45:07 PM
Look. I'm winking. Look at my eye.
It's good you pointed that out. I hadn't noticed.

[We need a dryly sarcastic emoticon.]
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 11, 2012, 06:06:00 PM
Oh, I got it just fine without the emoticon. :p


Also, five bonus points for whoever gets the reference in my previous post.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on January 11, 2012, 06:47:06 PM
I believe Sergeant Apone says something along those lines in Aliens.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 11, 2012, 06:51:35 PM
The sergeant part is right.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 11, 2012, 07:35:31 PM
Oh, I got it just fine without the emoticon. :p
Ok, I need it. I want to be able to fully express myself!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 11, 2012, 08:34:28 PM
More on That (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/01/11/more-on-that/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 12, 2012, 05:52:18 AM
In paragraph five, you are missing a word.  It should be "The day that we met", not "The that we met".

Other than that, I found the topic and explanations too esoteric for this woefully ignorant English major to understand.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on January 12, 2012, 06:34:50 AM
I've never heard either of those phrases and have no opinion.
Ditto.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 12, 2012, 08:46:52 AM
I found the topic and explanations too esoteric for this woefully ignorant English major to understand.
Ditto, only sub in "almost-minor" for "major".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 12, 2012, 10:00:17 AM
I was afraid of that, but making it more accessible would probably make it much, much longer and also dilute some of the points. Like I said, a lot of the syntactic stuff was going over my head too.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 12, 2012, 01:47:49 PM
I'm not complaining (and I don't think Esther was either). We simply cannot be fully wowed by the brilliance of that which we fail to grasp. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 12, 2012, 01:58:08 PM
 :blush:

Oh, I didn't think you were complaining. I just think it would be nice if it were more accessible. The inaccessibility of some linguistic theories is, I believe, a major problem in the prescriptivist-descriptivist debate. Prescriptivists sometimes think that linguists are just interested in abstract theories that have no bearing in the real world. I've even read at least one author who said that linguistics is worthless unless it can tell people what's right and wrong.

But I digress.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 12, 2012, 02:34:04 PM
As a linguist, why don't you go tell that author that he (or is it she?) is wrong, thus proving your worth.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 12, 2012, 02:40:11 PM
(Is there a joke there that I'm missing?)


I've thought about writing something into response to that book (which, by the way, is Language and Human Nature by Mark Halpern (http://books.google.com/books/about/Language_human_nature.html?id=ThvlwRK4l1oC)), but to be honest, I couldn't finish it. I couldn't get more than a paragraph or two without wanting to throw the book across the room because of all the logical and factual errors and charged rhetoric. The guy has a major axe to grind. I finally gave up on it after about eighty pages or so.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 12, 2012, 02:46:35 PM
Maybe a little joke.  You said the guy claimed that linguistics is worthless unless it can tell people what's right and wrong. So I said that you should tell him he is wrong (so that you won't be worthless).  I was kind of calling you "linguistics" instead of a "linguist".  I guess that's where the joke got unfunny.  Or maybe it was just born unfunny.  In which case, I guess it's not a joke at all.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 12, 2012, 02:48:38 PM
I think it was just a little too subtle for my sleep-deprived brain. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on January 12, 2012, 03:47:51 PM
I thought it was funny.

In theoretical linguistics there isn't right or wrong.  Though I guess there's well formed and not well formed.  Well formed basically means the usage has been observed to occur, which is where the term descriptivist comes in.  We're just describing what does occur. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 30, 2012, 09:27:03 PM
New blog post: a look at the history and use of that troublesome word comprise. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/01/30/comprised-of-fail/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 30, 2012, 10:23:17 PM
Quote
And who’s to say it isn’t correct now?
That would be me.

I have yielded on "hopefully", I am teetering a bit on less/fewer, but I'm not giving in on this one!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 30, 2012, 10:33:49 PM
Quote
And who’s to say it isn’t correct now?
That would be me.

 :D

I was actually expecting that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 30, 2012, 10:48:36 PM
Yeah, I knew I was being predictable when I posted, but I don't care!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on January 31, 2012, 06:11:16 AM
To be perfectly honest, while all your arguments are perfectly convincing and rational, "is comprised of" still bugs me. Some habits die hard, I guess.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 07, 2012, 02:13:22 PM
How to punctuate sentences with however (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/02/07/however/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on February 07, 2012, 04:41:14 PM
I gather that we're assuming that cases in which they aren't both independent clauses are a different situation. As in: My mother, however, feels it is wrong.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on February 07, 2012, 04:43:45 PM
I'm totally in the habit of using however with a comma, but no preceding semicolon.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: The Genuine on February 07, 2012, 04:53:16 PM
Hey, that was a great article.  I just e-mailed your site to my mom.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 07, 2012, 04:55:19 PM
I gather that we're assuming that cases in which they aren't both independent clauses are a different situation. As in: My mother, however, feels it is wrong.

Yes. I should edit it to clarify that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 07, 2012, 05:02:11 PM
Hey, that was a great article.  I just e-mailed your site to my mom.

Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: The Genuine on February 07, 2012, 05:13:55 PM
Not a big deal to you, but she taught me the difference between lay/lie.   :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 07, 2012, 07:00:50 PM
 :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 13, 2012, 04:21:00 PM
Taken from a discussion on Sakeriver: a post on the ambiguity of "most awarded." (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/02/13/most-awarded)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 14, 2012, 12:02:00 AM
That column moved me to leave a comment.  Fun column!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 14, 2012, 10:15:52 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 14, 2012, 10:54:16 AM
Can I have my award now?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 14, 2012, 11:09:35 AM
Sure! Here you go (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/02/13/most-awarded).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 21, 2012, 01:37:09 PM
Here's you a new post (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/02/21/heres-you-a-benefactive-dative/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on February 21, 2012, 07:10:53 PM
Wasn't "I loves me some Jon Boy" a sig for a while?  Years ago?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 21, 2012, 07:24:27 PM
Sounds familiar.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: The Genuine on February 22, 2012, 08:51:13 AM
Started here (http://www.sakeriver.com/forum/index.php?topic=134.msg3051#msg3051), but I don't know who sigged it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 22, 2012, 09:14:15 AM
Probably me.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on February 25, 2012, 07:52:22 PM
I don't think it's really related, but reading your column made me thing of the Jamaican patois I hear sometimes around here from the Jamaican people I work with in the hospital. (Like "mine's" meaning "my", not a hole in the ground.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 25, 2012, 08:57:46 PM
I think creole languages (including things like Jamaican patois) are fascinating. A lot of people think of them as broken languages, but it's interesting to see how two or more languages come together and form something new.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on February 26, 2012, 11:36:13 AM
I think the creole languages are fascinating, too, Jonathon. It's interesting to see how the words and sentences fit together. I love the lilt of them. And I don't really see them as broken languages, but as what you said: two or more languages coming together to form something new.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 29, 2012, 03:05:21 PM
Why is "dice" such a weird plural? The answer is more complicated than you may think. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/02/29/no-dice/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 29, 2012, 04:25:10 PM
Quote
As for me, I usually use singular die and feel twinges of self-loathing when I do so
While I feel twinges of something else altogether. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 29, 2012, 04:39:18 PM
Smug superiority?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 29, 2012, 05:04:57 PM
There must be a nicer-sounding way to phrase that, but I haven't figured out what it is yet.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 29, 2012, 05:15:54 PM
Let me know if you come up with something.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 29, 2012, 05:31:54 PM
The holiness of righteous justice!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on March 01, 2012, 10:07:22 AM
My prediction:  Someday Lego will be old enough to ask you why you didn't correct him on dice.  Someday a kid is going to tell him he's wrong, and he's going to come and ask about it.  The other way is if he picks up you saying it.  I guess that's how kids are supposed to learn English. 

So the plural of game die is different from the plural of tooling and machinery die?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 01, 2012, 11:26:49 AM
Yup. The two senses split apart, with the tooling die evolving into the regular voiced s ending and the game die ending up with its current weirdness.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 01, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
I'll continue using singular die, and plural dice, while correcting others' usage. If I do it enough, and enough people listen, I'll be right.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 01, 2012, 04:54:38 PM
There's only half a billion English speakers. How long could it possibly take?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 01, 2012, 07:32:45 PM
There's only half a billion English speakers. How long could it possibly take?
I could speed things up if I enlist American and British English teachers in my cause. I'll tell them ignoramuses disagree with me, and they can be snobby and dismissive if they do it my way. I can't lose!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on March 02, 2012, 07:29:30 AM
Actually, English teachers have minimal control over the way people speak.

(or did I just ruin the funny with facts?)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on March 02, 2012, 07:59:45 AM
They have a fair amount of control over how people write, and what people think of as "correct" English.  And for those who want to speak "correctly" for whatever reason, that control, IMO, rises above the level of "minimal".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 02, 2012, 12:10:54 PM
Actually, English teachers have minimal control over the way people speak.

(or did I just ruin the funny with facts?)
What Porter said.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on March 03, 2012, 07:11:13 PM
But no one writes essays about a die.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 03, 2012, 09:55:58 PM
English teachers have zero control over how people speak. They do have some not-minimal influence over how they write, though, at least in school, and for some people it's a very deep and lasting influence.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on March 04, 2012, 02:36:15 PM
I think my son has more Mid Atlantic markers in his speech due to living there from the ages of 5-8.  He says [sir^p], for instance, while my daughters say /s3r^p/.  Oh, Hekka just said /sir^p/.

I should really learn how to type in IPA better. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 04, 2012, 02:42:50 PM
English teachers have zero control over how people speak. They do have some not-minimal influence over how they write, though, at least in school, and for some people it's a very deep and lasting influence.
But does writing have such a distant relevance to speech? The words we use in writing one would think would travel into our common speech, that's certainly true for me. When reading aloud, teachers correct our pronunciation, and it's common for students to read a text that differs from the rules they use and to ask about it.

I'll grant that's not nearly as huge an influence as just hearing parents speak, or actively trying to fit in with how your community speaks the language.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2012, 10:38:12 PM
New Grammar Day post: "Rules, Evidence, and Grammar (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/03/04/rules-evidence-and-grammar/)."

Taylor: It's late and I'm tired, but I'll try to respond sometime tomorrow.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2012, 10:46:11 PM
Of course Data is singular. He's unique.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on March 05, 2012, 08:10:15 AM
Quote
English teachers have zero control over how people speak.
English teachers had an effect on how I grew up speaking.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 05, 2012, 09:23:55 AM
Quote
A couple of months ago, Geoffrey Pullum talked made the argument in this post on Lingua Franca that it’s impossible to talk about what’s right or wrong in language without considering the evidence.

I think the (bolding mine) "talked" isn't supposed to be there.  Not to nitpick.  Just thought you would want to know.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2012, 09:30:33 AM
Thanks for catching that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2012, 09:48:14 AM
But does writing have such a distant relevance to speech? The words we use in writing one would think would travel into our common speech, that's certainly true for me. When reading aloud, teachers correct our pronunciation, and it's common for students to read a text that differs from the rules they use and to ask about it.

I'll grant that's not nearly as huge an influence as just hearing parents speak, or actively trying to fit in with how your community speaks the language.

Writing is a very different animal from speaking. Sure, there's a lot of overlap, but consider the fact that an awful lot of people hardly ever write anything and probably don't read much either. Plus, there's the fact that we all leave school and don't have teachers hovering over our shoulders all the time correcting us.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2012, 09:49:09 AM
Quote
English teachers have zero control over how people speak.
English teachers had an effect on how I grew up speaking.

Effect, sure. "Control" is probably too strong a word, though.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on March 05, 2012, 11:05:10 AM
Agreed.  But then, so is "zero".  If you can affect something, your control of it is non-zero.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2012, 11:22:29 AM
I'm not sure I agree with that, but now we're just quibbling. I think we can agree that teachers do have some influence over how people write, and I think they have somewhat less influence over how people speak, especially once those people are out of school.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on March 05, 2012, 01:17:49 PM
All you have to do is live in a multilingual environment, especially one with a dominant official language as the medium of instruction but not the common language of the people, to see how little effect teachers have on how their students speak. Can the teachers affect how the students will speak during the presentation they have to give for class? Sure. But as soon as the bell rings they're back to the way they always speak.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 05, 2012, 02:25:09 PM
When I was in Qing Hua University almost two years ago, my teachers would constantly interrupt my pronunciation, and my awkward diction. My accent changed, as did the words I used in conducting my daily affairs after just a few weeks of influence. They could still pick out my Taiwanese accent, but I definitely started sounding more local by the time I left.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: The Genuine on March 05, 2012, 03:03:20 PM
Learning Spanish had an incredible impact on my understanding of English.

English came so naturally to me, as I was raised around it, that I never really paid too much attention in class.  Then, very on early English class moved from the rules of the language to literature and all that fancy stuff.

Having to learn a second language later really caused me to think about the functions of words within a sentence.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on March 07, 2012, 11:00:42 AM
When I was in Qing Hua University almost two years ago, my teachers would constantly interrupt my pronunciation, and my awkward diction. My accent changed, as did the words I used in conducting my daily affairs after just a few weeks of influence. They could still pick out my Taiwanese accent, but I definitely started sounding more local by the time I left.

This was your learning a second language, though, which is something totally different.

Learning Spanish had an incredible impact on my understanding of English.

English came so naturally to me, as I was raised around it, that I never really paid too much attention in class.  Then, very on early English class moved from the rules of the language to literature and all that fancy stuff.

Having to learn a second language later really caused me to think about the functions of words within a sentence.

Metalinguistic awareness! :wub:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 07, 2012, 11:31:58 AM
Captain Keller!  Mrs. Keller!  He knows!  He knows!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 07, 2012, 04:54:48 PM
When I was in Qing Hua University almost two years ago, my teachers would constantly interrupt my pronunciation, and my awkward diction. My accent changed, as did the words I used in conducting my daily affairs after just a few weeks of influence. They could still pick out my Taiwanese accent, but I definitely started sounding more local by the time I left.

This was your learning a second language, though, which is something totally different.
Why should it be? If I was enrolled in a "Rhetoric" or "Public Speaking" course it would have the same effect.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on March 07, 2012, 05:52:33 PM
Because Chinese is your second language.

eta: A rhetoric class in your native language might affect how you speak in certain situations, but it wouldn't affect how you spoke at home or with your friends. Native, everyday language is very unsusceptible to external mandate. It is, however, very susceptible to peer groups and culture. We weren't originally talking about rhetoric classes, though, we were talking about English teachers.

This is a very touchy subject for me because of some of the crazy political nonsense that's going on recently. Arizona was trying to pass a regulation that teachers who spoke with "foreign accents" couldn't teach elementary school because they would teach the students nonstandard English. One of my linguistics professors posted on facebook a letter written by a coalition of linguists repudiating, point by point, the ridiculous assumptions of that policy. I was trying to find that letter but I haven't been able to again.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on March 07, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
Quote
A rhetoric class in your native language might affect how you speak in certain situations, but it wouldn't affect how you spoke at home or with your friends.
It did for me.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 07, 2012, 06:31:35 PM
Yeah, but you're weird. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 07, 2012, 10:03:56 PM
Because Chinese is your second language.

eta: A rhetoric class in your native language might affect how you speak in certain situations, but it wouldn't affect how you spoke at home or with your friends. Native, everyday language is very unsusceptible to external mandate. It is, however, very susceptible to peer groups and culture. We weren't originally talking about rhetoric classes, though, we were talking about English teachers.

This is a very touchy subject for me because of some of the crazy political nonsense that's going on recently. Arizona was trying to pass a regulation that teachers who spoke with "foreign accents" couldn't teach elementary school because they would teach the students nonstandard English. One of my linguistics professors posted on facebook a letter written by a coalition of linguists repudiating, point by point, the ridiculous assumptions of that policy. I was trying to find that letter but I haven't been able to again.
Annie, I for one don't believe there really is a "standard English". I have no problem with people with accents teaching English because by and large there is so much shared media it creates a sort of standard we can reference when we speak to each other, rather than pockets of America where there are more and more distinct accents and vocabulary.

But you are talking to somebody whose accent and speech patterns are very fluid. When I talk to people I quickly pick up on mannerisms and methods of speaking. It makes people more comfortable in many instances. I have a completely different voice (for lack of a better term) for each one of my siblings. I've always been that way as long as I can remember. I get that I might be a bit of an anomaly to a significant extent, but I am also convinced that if one took a class where they were taught rhetorical principles and how to speak in public, you would find that adjusting your speech patterns is a skill just like any other. If instead of foreign languages we insisted on foreign accents in school, people would be quite capable of completely adjusting their accent and sticking with the new accent even as their primary voice.

When I took a rhetorical class in high school, my teacher told me that I had a weakness with using inappropriately advanced words when speaking to an audience. To a great extent I was proud of my vocabulary, and frequently used five dollar words when speaking. I had to spend the entire semester working on it, it was crazy hard to not use those words but also not sound like I was speaking like my audience was full of dumb people. Since then, and this is still true today, I'm much better at adjusting my word set depending on who I speak to.

Again, that's all on top of my accent, and manner of speaking.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on March 08, 2012, 10:36:49 PM
The good news is that there is a standard English.  The bad news is that the only native speaker was William Shakespeare.  

I'll back any law for that. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 09, 2012, 12:51:27 PM
By my troth! Thy babelings instruct fools to silence, and wisemen to their trembling. Shall a man raise his voice against the storms' thunderous accusations? Or the frenzied railings of the mad? I say unto thee - Nay! Nay! :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 09, 2012, 01:54:06 PM
The good news is that there is a standard English.  The bad news is that the only native speaker was William Shakespeare.  

I'll back any law for that. 

 :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on March 10, 2012, 06:18:41 AM
Is that King Lear?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 10, 2012, 07:24:12 AM
Is that King Lear?
Nah, I just made it up. I wish I could type stuff like that out in under 3 minutes.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on March 10, 2012, 11:39:42 AM
Wow. That was pretty convincing!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 10, 2012, 05:03:27 PM
*bows* :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 19, 2012, 03:05:42 PM
A slightly different sort of post (because now I'm a corporate shill): How to Write Better (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/03/19/how-to-write-better/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on March 19, 2012, 04:00:12 PM
I always dreamed of the day you'd sell out.

*wipes tear*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 19, 2012, 04:29:40 PM
Really, isn't that every writer's dream?

It's especially funny that I agree to write this post in exchange for a $50 Amazon gift card the week before I was asked to write an article that will pay 19 times as much.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on March 19, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
Good things come to those who sell out. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 19, 2012, 06:12:51 PM
good things == money?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 19, 2012, 07:00:36 PM
I thought that was the root of all evil?

(Yeah, yeah, I know money is != love of money.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on March 19, 2012, 11:27:31 PM
Well, we are talking about selling out here.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 30, 2012, 10:30:55 AM
A post of mine was quoted both on The Economist's language blog, Johnson, (http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2012/03/sticklers) and John McIntyre's blog on The Baltimore Sun's site (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/language-blog/bal-best-reason-to-ignore-the-ap-stylebook-20120330,0,4664254.story).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 30, 2012, 10:38:56 AM
 B)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 30, 2012, 11:22:17 AM
I knew Jon Boy before he was almost famous, and every point after that until he goes mad with fame, spirals, and then I'll have never known him.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 30, 2012, 11:25:09 AM
Hey, I once was awarded once of his blog posts!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 30, 2012, 11:36:05 AM
I knew Jon Boy before he was almost famous, and every point after that until he goes mad with fame, spirals, and then I'll have never known him.

Who are you again?

Hey, I once was awarded once of his blog posts!

I hope you treasure it always.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 30, 2012, 11:56:54 AM
I keep it forever close to my heart -- curled up inside my pulmonary vein.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on March 30, 2012, 05:20:28 PM
Go Jonathon!  Though out of curiosity, what was the usage that appears in Shakespeare, and who says it?

Ah, a sonnet, for the sake of rhyme.  A verb of being split with a passive participle!  That's the earring talking there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_infinitive#Modern_English
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 18, 2012, 01:54:13 PM
Grammar and Morality (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/04/18/grammar-and-morality/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 18, 2012, 02:21:44 PM
Missing word?
Quote
is no excuse for any degree grammatical laxness.

Quote
You see, bad grammar doesn’t just indicate an unclean conscience; it threatens the very foundations of democracy.
I've been telling you this for YEARS! ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 18, 2012, 02:22:49 PM
Missing word?
Quote
is no excuse for any degree grammatical laxness.

Yes, thanks.

Quote
Quote
You see, bad grammar doesn’t just indicate an unclean conscience; it threatens the very foundations of democracy.
I've been telling you this for YEARS! ;)

 :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 18, 2012, 03:52:52 PM
I agree with your point. But it was way too good an opportunity to pass up. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 18, 2012, 03:58:57 PM
Oh, I know.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 18, 2012, 04:13:27 PM
 :whistling:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 26, 2012, 08:35:39 AM
Today I have a guest post (http://logophilius.blogspot.com/2012/04/guest-post-jonathon-owen-shows-some.html) at the blog Logophilius in which I talk about rules and style choices.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on April 26, 2012, 11:27:50 AM
Good post. Enjoyed it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 26, 2012, 11:42:15 AM
 B)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 26, 2012, 11:48:38 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
Post by: Jonathon on May 01, 2012, 01:28:29 PM
Bryan Garner likes some of my posts.

link (https://twitter.com/#!/BryanAGarner/status/197416445502701568)

link (https://twitter.com/#!/BryanAGarner/status/197417927820066816)

I'm flattered, even though he's my arch-nemesis. (But he doesn't know it. :ninja:)
Title: Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
Post by: rivka on May 01, 2012, 03:12:09 PM
I thought Lynne Truss was your arch-nemesis.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 01, 2012, 04:03:11 PM
Whoops. I just realized I posted that in the wrong thread. Secret mod powers . . . activate!

Can I have two arch-nemeses?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 01, 2012, 06:44:13 PM
Wouldn't that mean some poor kid has to suffer through life without one? That doesn't seem fair.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 01, 2012, 07:08:02 PM
Good point. I guess I'll pick Garner.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 05, 2012, 09:20:01 AM
New post: What Descriptivism Is and Isn't (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/06/04/what-descriptivism-is-and-isnt/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 05, 2012, 09:49:25 AM
Your advisor has identified over 10,000 distinct prescriptive rules in various handbooks?  Holy moley!  Must be loads of fun at parties.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 05, 2012, 09:52:48 AM
 :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on June 05, 2012, 12:26:42 PM
He's actually a pretty cool guy, but I guess we're not exactly objective in this matter, as we're pretty nerdy in almost exactly the same way.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on June 06, 2012, 07:38:32 AM
10,000 is Chinese for "more than I feel it would be productive to count."  I don't know if that's how he's using it.  The qualifier that only a fraction are repeated is what makes me suspicious of the total.  But I don't know, maybe the guy does it for a living, and maybe he really keeps a spreadsheet somewhere.  

If I'm ever convicted of murder, I'll undertake a review of his results as a way of ensuring I spend as much time as possible in solitary confinement.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

P.P.S.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 06, 2012, 09:37:31 AM
10,000 is Chinese for "more than I feel it would be productive to count."  I don't know if that's how he's using it.  The qualifier that only a fraction are repeated is what makes me suspicious of the total.  But I don't know, maybe the guy does it for a living, and maybe he really keeps a spreadsheet somewhere.

Well, he's a professor of linguistics and English language, so yes, this is what he does for a living. ;)

I don't think it's at all surprising that a large number of the rules are one-offs. It seems like pretty much everyone who writes a usage handbook or dictionary puts in their own pet peeves, which may be highly idiosyncratic. And a lot of people have written about usage in the last 200+ years.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on June 08, 2012, 05:08:05 AM
I find it amusing to see people respond to me when I put actual estimates or qualifying statements where hyperbole usually goes.

"I swear I have told that guy about four times that..."

"Did you see that movie? Ah, man! It was the best superhero movie in at least the last five years."

"This bag feels like it weighs one hundred lbs, and I've been carrying it for several minutes."

Don't get me wrong, I like hyperbole, but it loses its punching power when we use it to excuse our laziness in actually describing something.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on June 08, 2012, 07:07:44 AM

Well, he's a professor of linguistics and English language, so yes, this is what he does for a living. ;)

I don't think it's at all surprising that a large number of the rules are one-offs. It seems like pretty much everyone who writes a usage handbook or dictionary puts in their own pet peeves, which may be highly idiosyncratic. And a lot of people have written about usage in the last 200+ years.
But does he keep a spreadsheet?  I was pretty sure he is a professor in English or language.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 08, 2012, 08:55:27 AM
Yes, I'm sure he has some sort of spreadsheet or database.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 08, 2012, 09:51:03 AM
Does it surprise you that of the whole column, the part that impressed us the most was the offhand comment about the nutty professor?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 08, 2012, 10:21:36 AM
He's not nutty! It's research! :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 08, 2012, 10:39:11 AM
Oh dear.  He reads here, doesn't he.


I'm sorry, Professor.  It wasn't fair of me to judge you on that one offhand, out-of-context remark from Jonathon.  It just produced a ridiculous image in my imagination, although I can understand how someone devoted to research and meticulous in its execution could gather such an impressive data set.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 14, 2012, 08:02:23 PM
Take My Commas—Please (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/06/14/take-my-commas-please/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 14, 2012, 08:23:05 PM
How prescriptivist of you. :D

Also, I agree that those commas should be avoided.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 14, 2012, 08:28:45 PM
What part was so prescriptivist of me?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 14, 2012, 09:28:04 PM
You don't quite say "omit these commas", but you come really close.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 14, 2012, 09:58:55 PM
I think I just don't care enough about nitpicky things like this to make absolute pronouncements anymore. I find the problems interesting intellectually, so I like talking about them, but I usually don't feel strongly enough to try to foist my preferences on others.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 14, 2012, 10:51:23 PM
You're probably just not old and crotchety enough.

Give it time. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 14, 2012, 10:56:07 PM
I was crotchetier when I was younger. :p

Is it supposed to come back at some point?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 15, 2012, 01:18:32 AM
That's been my exp--

That is, so I've heard.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on June 15, 2012, 06:01:13 PM
You only think you're less crotchety.  You've just gotten beat down. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on June 21, 2012, 10:59:09 AM
I find it amusing to see people respond to me when I put actual estimates or qualifying statements where hyperbole usually goes.

"I swear I have told that guy about four times that..."

"Did you see that movie? Ah, man! It was the best superhero movie in at least the last five years."

"This bag feels like it weighs one hundred lbs, and I've been carrying it for several minutes."

Don't get me wrong, I like hyperbole, but it loses its punching power when we use it to excuse our laziness in actually describing something.

At some point, I decided to adopt 87 as my hyperbolic number of choice. I'll say things like "yeah, it was pretty funny the first 87 times I heard it." I think it makes things a lot funnier when you use an oddly specific large number for your exaggerating. 147 works well too. It always sounds good when they end in 7.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on June 21, 2012, 11:35:59 AM
Weird Al chose 27 as his weirdly specific number.

Quote
I find it amusing to see people respond to me when I put actual estimates or qualifying statements where hyperbole usually goes.
I do that fairly frequently with statements such as "That's the saddest thing I've heard this morning".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on June 21, 2012, 12:18:59 PM
That reminds me of a speaker in church a few weeks back who said, about the sacrament, "We are figuratively eating Christ's flesh and drinking his blood." It was exactly the intonation people use when they say "literally" incorrectly. I just about applauded.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: SteveRogers on June 21, 2012, 01:12:40 PM
I just think of Rob Lowe's character in Parks & Recreation.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on June 22, 2012, 08:36:18 AM
That is littrally what I think of too.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Marianne Dashwood on June 22, 2012, 04:11:07 PM
:)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on June 24, 2012, 10:03:04 PM
Weird Al chose 27 as his weirdly specific number.

Quote
I find it amusing to see people respond to me when I put actual estimates or qualifying statements where hyperbole usually goes.
I do that fairly frequently with statements such as "That's the saddest thing I've heard this morning".
Exactly.

Also the weirdly specific number sounds pretty close to what I do except I try to make it reasonably accurate.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 30, 2012, 07:22:02 PM
The Data Is In, pt. 1 (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/07/30/the-data-is-in-pt-1/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: dkw on July 31, 2012, 01:18:02 AM
I'm looking forward to Part two. 

I think you have a typo:  "Isn’t all data—whether you think of it as a count of a mass noun"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 31, 2012, 09:35:48 AM
Yes, I do. Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 07, 2012, 03:17:14 PM
The exciting conclusion: The Data Is In, pt. 2 (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/08/07/the-data-is-in-pt-2/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 08, 2012, 08:16:28 AM
I enjoyed both parts, but especially part 2.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 08, 2012, 09:09:38 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on August 14, 2012, 05:00:38 PM
I also enjoyed the articles.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 14, 2012, 05:37:58 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 15, 2012, 06:54:55 AM
I didn't only enjoy the articles, I enjoyed all the parts of speech!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on August 15, 2012, 07:20:23 AM
Wakka wakka wakka!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 29, 2012, 10:43:13 PM
Relative What (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/08/29/relative-what/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 30, 2012, 06:22:58 AM
Hmm, my German FIL uses "what" that way regularly. "He climbed up on the roof, what to get his tools he left up there." Or is that not quite what you were writing about?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 30, 2012, 10:44:55 AM
Hmm. I'm not quite sure if that's the same. I'm talking about it in the sense in which we'd normally use that or which. In English, we wouldn't use anything where your FIL used that what. But German does use was, which is cognate with English what, as a relative pronoun in some constructions, usually referring to a whole clause rather than just a single word or phrase.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 30, 2012, 11:44:44 AM
Hmm. I'm not quite sure if that's the same. I'm talking about it in the sense in which we'd normally use that or which. In English, we wouldn't use anything where your FIL used that what. But German does use was, which is cognate with English what, as a relative pronoun in some constructions, usually referring to a whole clause rather than just a single word or phrase.
So what's an example of a full English sentence using what the way your column describes? I read the bit about the prayer, but I'm still havin troubl grasping it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 30, 2012, 12:34:09 PM
The only twentieth-century example in the OED is "If I sat down to write a book, I'd want to shove in all what I saw." Standard English would use all that I saw. In the example from the prayer, the standard construction would be "our leaders who guide and direct us" or "our leaders that guide and direct us". Does that help?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 30, 2012, 01:15:55 PM
The only twentieth-century example in the OED is "If I sat down to write a book, I'd want to shove in all what I saw." Standard English would use all that I saw. In the example from the prayer, the standard construction would be "our leaders who guide and direct us" or "our leaders that guide and direct us". Does that help?
So what about, "I went back up on the roof to get all the tools what I left up there."?

My FIL would say it that way as well.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 30, 2012, 01:29:07 PM
Yup, that's what I'm talking about.

I find it interesting that a German speaker would do that. The normal German way of making a relative clause is to use a form of the demonstrative pronoun (roughly like that), unless the relative refers to an indefinite thing or a whole clause, in which case they use the interrogative was. So where we'd say It's something that I've never seen, they'd say something like Es ist etwas, was ich niemals gesehen habe, where was is "what"—"It was something what I've never seen." But when referring to something definite, like "the tools", I was taught to use a demonstrative, which in this case would be die.

But it could be that what I taught is "proper" German, while your father-in-law is using something more colloquial. I don't know German grammar well enough.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 30, 2012, 01:50:53 PM
Could also be when he learned English he wasn't comfortable with pronouncing the th in that and swapped in 'what' in lieu of that. Do Germans have any trouble forming that syllable?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 30, 2012, 02:21:35 PM
Yeah, the th sounds are not found in German. For a lot of native German-speakers who have learned English, that comes out more like dat—maybe zat for some speakers. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure, but I think voiced th usually becomes d, and voiceless th becomes s.

This is just a guess, but it seems more likely to me that he's just translating something straight over from his dialect of German. There's a lot more dialectal variation in Germany than in the US, so it wouldn't surprise me if there are regions where speakers use was rather than der/die/das. Of course, I know less about regional German dialects than I do about Standard German, so I'm really just speculating.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on August 30, 2012, 02:31:04 PM
The only thing I know is that he was born in what used to be Prussia. I believ North East. Not that that helps.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 30, 2012, 09:19:15 PM
"He doesn't know from what he's doing."  Is that an example from what you mean?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 31, 2012, 07:31:07 PM
I'm not sure what that is, but it's not what I'm talking about either. Basically, a relative pronoun attaches a clause to some sort of noun phrase. As a pronoun, it has to refer to something in the main clause. So in The man who knew too little, who is a relative pronoun referring to man, and it serves as the subject of the relative clause who knew too little. In He doesn't know from what he's doing, what might be a nominal (or fused) relative, which means that it contains its own noun phrase and thus doesn't have to refer to something else. In He wants what he can't have, what serves simultaneously as an object of the main clause (He wants what) and as an object of the relative clause (he can't have what). This becomes clearer if you replace it with that which or the thing that or something similar. Then you have a separate noun phrase or pronoun for the relative pronoun (that or which) to refer to.

But even if what is a nominal relative in your example, I don't really know what the from is doing there. Is this a Yiddishism?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 01, 2012, 06:09:04 AM
It seems that "what" used as a relative pronoun is used in Cockney. All I know about Cockney, though, comes from watching period dramas. Is that the case?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 01, 2012, 10:01:00 AM
Someone actually just posted a comment (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/08/29/relative-what/#comment-10403) saying that it's very common in Cockney.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 02, 2012, 07:19:32 AM
Aha! Masterpiece Theater does me well again.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 02, 2012, 07:49:24 AM
Today from Hatrack,

"And then taking credit for it! When it wasn't really him what done it!"

I was like heyyyyy!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 02, 2012, 09:55:00 AM
Cool! Where is that?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 02, 2012, 03:42:31 PM
Here. (http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=058748;p=1&r=nfx#000038)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 02, 2012, 10:17:25 PM
But even if what is a nominal relative in your example, I don't really know what the from is doing there. Is this a Yiddishism?
Yes.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 05, 2012, 10:59:44 AM
I've been Language Logged! (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=4165)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on September 05, 2012, 11:08:20 AM
Whoa. B)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 05, 2012, 11:26:35 AM
You have arrived!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 05, 2012, 11:32:50 AM
I'm pushing 1,000 visits today. A pretty good day for me is about 200.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 05, 2012, 02:35:50 PM
Good on you!  The comments on that site are a little more erudite than the ones on, say,   YouTube.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 05, 2012, 02:44:33 PM
I'm over 1,700 visits now.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 05, 2012, 03:08:14 PM
Awesome!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 08:35:07 AM
I hit 2,275 yesterday, and I'm already pushing 300 today.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on September 06, 2012, 09:30:31 AM
You need more posts. Quick! Write brilliant stuff!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 09:35:30 AM
No kidding! I need to keep as much momentum as possible.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: SteveRogers on September 06, 2012, 10:18:10 AM
Congrats, Jonathon.  :)  Also, no pressure.  :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 10:22:52 AM
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 11:30:17 AM
Here's what my traffic stats for the last 30 days looked like as of this morning:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A2HzZpcCUAAUu7o.png:large)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: SteveRogers on September 06, 2012, 12:04:39 PM
That's quite a contrast.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 12:16:12 PM
No kidding. It's about 10 times my previous high (since I started tracking stats in WordPress itself). I got more views in a single day than I get in a month.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: SteveRogers on September 06, 2012, 12:26:15 PM
This is your opportunity to start sharing a political manifesto!   ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 12:36:20 PM
Meh. Maybe a linguistic manifesto.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: SteveRogers on September 06, 2012, 12:41:31 PM
Is there anything historically which could be semi-accurately described as a linguistic manifesto?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 01:00:12 PM
I'd say so. George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" is a good example, as is the front matter of Garner's Modern American Usage. (I have serious problems with both, but that's another issue.) Probably Jonathan Swift's "A Proposal for Correcting, Improving and Ascertaining the English Tongue", but I've read only little bits. I'm sure there are plenty of others.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: SteveRogers on September 06, 2012, 01:07:23 PM
I'll have to remember those when next I have opportunity to discuss linguistic manifestos.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 06, 2012, 08:16:05 PM
Surely that book which you hate and I love falls under such a description. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 06, 2012, 08:17:48 PM
The Book Which Shall Not Be Named? Yes, I suppose it would.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 25, 2012, 10:00:59 AM
It's All Grammar—So What? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/09/25/its-all-grammar-so-what/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 25, 2012, 10:24:19 AM
Hmm.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 25, 2012, 01:37:47 PM
Penny for your thoughts?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 25, 2012, 01:47:33 PM
I agree with some bits, disagree with others, and am still chewing on the rest.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 25, 2012, 01:49:52 PM
Okay. I'd be interested to hear what you think once you've chewed and digested it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 26, 2012, 02:46:07 PM
I posted an addendum that I suspect you'll appreciate, Rivka.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 01, 2012, 07:26:58 PM
Funner Grammar (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/10/01/funner-grammar/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 08, 2012, 04:22:13 PM
Names, Spelling, and Style (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/11/08/names-spelling-and-style/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 08, 2012, 08:31:06 PM
This (and some related issues) comes up a LOT on GR, where I often get the fun job of arguing with authors about our policies regarding punctuation and spacing in author names.

Needless to say, I agree with you.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 08, 2012, 08:46:32 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 08, 2012, 09:41:00 PM
How do you feel about apostrophes or tildes or umlauts and the like?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 08, 2012, 09:44:07 PM
Accent marks are absolutely part of someone's name. Ruth asked about apostrophes in someone's name, and I agreed that they're part of a name too (even though I secretly think that they're kind of ridiculous).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 09, 2012, 08:07:26 AM
I think they're sillier in first names than in last names.

In science fiction and fantasy, authors lay on heavy apostrophes in the alien names. I don't like those.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on November 09, 2012, 08:38:20 PM
I think if it stands for a glottal stop, it is legitimate. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 10, 2012, 11:06:15 PM
O-glottal stop-Brien?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2012, 02:49:47 PM
The Enormity of a Usage Problem (http://wp.me/p2uO4N-fJ)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 20, 2012, 03:48:53 PM
I am hard-pressed to come up with a sentence in which I would preferentially use enormousness. I like enormity much better.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2012, 03:58:52 PM
Agreed. And judging from Google Ngrams (http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=enormity%2Cenormousness&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=), pretty much everyone else agrees too.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 20, 2012, 09:55:22 PM
I kind of like that I know the "real" meaning of enormity.  It.makes me feel superior to regular folk.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on November 20, 2012, 09:55:38 PM
Enormousness sound odd.  Too many coronals.  I use enormity to refer to overwhelming tasks that I should do but don't, which is the opposite of wicked.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2012, 10:07:55 PM
I kind of like that I know the "real" meaning of enormity.  It.makes me feel superior to regular folk.

In all honesty, I think this is the only reason for preferring the "wickedness" meaning.

Enormousness sound odd.  Too many coronals.  I use enormity to refer to overwhelming tasks that I should do but don't, which is the opposite of wicked.

I don't think it's too many coronals. Plenty of words have lots of coronals. I thought maybe it was the /əsnəs/ at the end, but other words have that too. I think maybe it just sounds odd because it's almost never used, and it's almost never used because everyone uses enormity instead.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 20, 2012, 10:42:27 PM
I think maybe it just sounds odd because it's almost never used, and it's almost never used because everyone uses enormity instead.
I agree.

Also, I don't need this to feel superior to hoi polloi. That's what less/fewer is for.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: dkw on November 21, 2012, 06:08:13 AM
Huh.  It never would have occurred to me to use enormity to refer only to great size. I would use enormousness. I guess I'm one of the outliers on this one.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 21, 2012, 10:00:56 AM
No one is saying that enormity should refer only to great size, just that it can also refer to great size.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: dkw on November 21, 2012, 02:11:05 PM
No, I mean only in the sense of the only meaning it has in the particular sentence.  If I was looking for a word to refer only to the size of something, I wouldn't use enormity.

I would use it if I was describing the bigness of the badness, not if I was only describing bigness.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 22, 2012, 09:56:26 AM
Part of my point is that people often use it to describe not only bigness, but momentous bigness or overwhelming bigness. And there's often some sense of badness, though not necessarily wickedness or immorality, like when someone talks about the enormity of the problem of poverty in India. (I don't remember the exact wording, but one of the example sentences was something along those lines.) Enormousness doesn't fit those senses very well.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on November 23, 2012, 01:50:40 PM
So it's nothing todo with -ous, -ity, and -ness?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 23, 2012, 03:37:41 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 23, 2012, 03:38:04 PM
Hanged and Hung (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/11/23/hanged-and-hung/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 23, 2012, 04:18:15 PM
It's interesting that everyone I know who remembers being taught this uses the same exact example for hung: people are hanged, pictures are hung.

(Also, your last parenthetical has no close.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 24, 2012, 10:11:37 AM
It's interesting that everyone I know who remembers being taught this uses the same exact example for hung: people are hanged, pictures are hung.

Probably because it makes a good mnemonic—it's memorable and easy to grasp.

Quote
(Also, your last parenthetical has no close.)

Thanks for catching that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 25, 2012, 02:34:46 PM
Probably because it makes a good mnemonic—it's memorable and easy to grasp.
Probably. Nonetheless, it's interesting there are (as far as I am aware) no alternative mnemonics used.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 26, 2012, 09:36:39 AM
One of my high school English teachers did note that men can be hung, but only in the colloquial sense.  She was a hot riot.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on November 26, 2012, 02:06:43 PM
It's interesting that everyone I know who remembers being taught this uses the same exact example for hung: people are hanged, pictures are hung.
Probably because it makes a good mnemonic—it's memorable and easy to grasp.

I don't get how it is memorable.  I mean, I remember the mnemonic, but it's always as "People are [either hanged or hung], pictures are [the other one].  The mnemonic doesn't help me remember which word is used in which situation.

Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 26, 2012, 02:23:52 PM
I guess you have to have some inkling of which is which first. Then it just serves as a reminder.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on November 26, 2012, 03:12:34 PM
Oh well.  I never remember which is which for lay/lie either.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 10, 2012, 02:15:38 PM
Completion Successful (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/12/10/completion-successful/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Farmgirl on December 19, 2012, 01:33:02 PM
Completion Successful (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/12/10/completion-successful/)

Huh.  I had never thought of it in that way.  But now I always will.  And since I work at a bank, I'm probably going to share this particular column...
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 19, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
Success!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2012, 03:08:12 PM
Relative Pronoun Redux (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2012/12/24/relative-pronoun-redux/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 24, 2012, 03:58:55 PM
Is there really meant to be a that that in one of your examples? (If so, it lost me completely, and now I'm trying not to recall the entire that that quote from the Thursday Next books. And failing . . .)

The that/which thing has never bothered me. Which probably just means I never had a teacher who corrected me on it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2012, 05:40:26 PM
It is intentional. I'm showing that that doesn't work in some situations. Hence the asterisk.

Lucky you for never having it inflicted on you. I picked it up when I started copy editing and defended it valiantly for several years before being disabused of it by Language Log.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 24, 2012, 05:47:49 PM
I'm showing that that doesn't work in some situations.
That much I followed.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2012, 06:06:50 PM
Um . . . so what didn't you follow?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 24, 2012, 06:32:42 PM
Double thats usually fry my brain. This is no exception.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2012, 06:46:47 PM
Ah. Normally the second that would be which. Or you could replace them both with what.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 24, 2012, 07:41:02 PM
Normally the second that would be which.
And with that substitution, I can decode.

Or you could replace them both with what.
But not with that one. *headasplode*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2012, 09:42:26 PM
Why not with that one? "They want what they can't have."
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 24, 2012, 09:53:27 PM
Oh! I misunderstood what you meant by "both" (as distinct from "each").
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2012, 09:56:02 PM
 ???

I would take "you can replace them each with what" to mean that the end result would be "they want what what they can't have". I can see how "both" can yield the same reading, but I don't see how "each" would mean what I wanted to mean.

At any rate, I edited the original passage in question to make it a little clearer.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 24, 2012, 10:09:25 PM
The error was mine, not yours.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2012, 11:01:09 PM
Well, whoever's error it was, glad we got it all cleared up. :flower:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 25, 2012, 07:52:54 AM
"they want what what they can't have".

I thought that's what you were talking about, too.  And like Rivka, I thought, "What?  WHAT?"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on December 25, 2012, 05:38:48 PM
[British accent]What what.[/British accent]
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 26, 2012, 08:23:56 AM
Hear here!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 23, 2013, 02:04:06 PM
Some of you may be interested to know that I'm contributing to a group blog called Foolproofing (http://foolproofing.wordpress.com/), where we offer sarcastic editing advice.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 24, 2013, 11:22:32 AM
Someone on Twitter said of the latest Foolproofing post, "It could be argued that this is the best article on academic writing to emerge this year." ;D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 24, 2013, 12:07:56 PM
*snicker*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2013, 10:48:47 AM
Who Edits the Editors? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/03/04/who-edits-the-editors/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2013, 11:08:29 AM
(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/233/5/c/thumbs_up_emote_by_UzumakiSlumpBallZ.gif)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2013, 11:57:29 AM
I'm not sure what that emoticon is—a thumbs up?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2013, 12:11:41 PM
Precisely.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2013, 12:21:25 PM
In that case, thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on March 04, 2013, 04:47:53 PM
(http://homewardrealestate.com/wp-content/uploads/two-thumbs-up.jpg)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 19, 2013, 09:28:38 AM
I'm now writing for Visual Thesaurus (http://www.visualthesaurus.com), and my first article is on toward and towards (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wc/towards-a-fuller-understanding-of-usage). It's behind a paywall, but a subscription is only $19.95 a year if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 12, 2013, 10:47:11 PM
My first review of a book: Editor-Proof Your Writing (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/04/12/book-review-editor-proof-your-writing). Spoiler alert: The book was terrible.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on April 13, 2013, 10:16:49 AM
Jonathon: "Most editing manuals are like geography books that give great information about an area, but don’t show you hot(sic) to get from place to place"

May want to fix the spelling of "how".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 13, 2013, 12:03:42 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on April 13, 2013, 01:30:02 PM
It was a good review. I thought the book as a concept was a good, but that's sad it was poorly executed.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 13, 2013, 10:23:01 PM
It was a good review.
Indeed.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 13, 2013, 10:44:51 PM
Thanks, guys.

I felt like I had to restrain myself a lot. It's pretty scathing as it is, but I could have been downright mean if I'd really torn into the author's own terrible prose. Seriously, though, go check out the blurbs for his books (http://www.mcnairedits.com/NovelsIveWritten.html), which I'm pretty sure he wrote himself.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 08, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
"The Reason Why This is Correct (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/05/08/the-reason-why-this-is-correct/)"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 08, 2013, 05:50:04 PM
Quote
Just because there are other options doesn’t mean one is right and the rest are wrong.
Stab me in the heart, why don'cha? ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 08, 2013, 05:52:23 PM
*stabbity*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 08, 2013, 06:39:58 PM
*critiques form*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 08, 2013, 06:47:37 PM
What do you expect? I never took fencing like Mackillian.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 16, 2013, 08:57:35 PM
My Thesis (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/05/16/my-thesis/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 16, 2013, 11:29:37 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 17, 2013, 03:20:32 AM
Thanks For Sharing That, It Really Is Interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on May 29, 2013, 12:55:37 PM
I guess in the end it does come down to the quality of the argument.  If you can provide even a shred of reasoning for a preferred verbiage editors and English teachers eat it up.  But by advancing an argument one opens the question up for linguists to argue which they do sure as the world turning.  It becomes a game of chicken over who take the argument too far. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 28, 2013, 12:50:04 PM
Solstices, Vegetables, and Official Definitions (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/06/28/soltices-vegetables-and-official-definitions/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 28, 2013, 04:35:19 PM
Nice.  Change "moth" to "month", though, in the second paragraph.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 28, 2013, 05:26:04 PM
Thanks.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on July 02, 2013, 11:21:23 AM
Hekka calls tomatoes the fruit that used to be a vegetable.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2013, 08:37:58 AM
I wrote the script for today's Grammar Girl podcast (http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/homophones). It's on etymologically related homophones.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 23, 2013, 09:28:25 AM
Nice!  How come the Grammar Girl didn't let you read it yourself?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2013, 10:45:18 AM
Because then it would be Grammar Some Random Guy, and that would confuse the heck out of people.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 23, 2013, 11:12:08 AM
I might actually read a "Grammar Some Random Guy" blog.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2013, 11:37:13 AM
Maybe I'll retitle my blog.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 23, 2013, 02:23:46 PM
I'd read your blog no matter what you called it.  Of all the language blogs I follow, it's my favorite. :wub:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2013, 03:47:49 PM
Aw, shucks. :blush:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 23, 2013, 12:49:56 PM
Look! I finally wrote a new post (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/10/23/book-review-shady-characters/), this time a review of a book called Shady Characters (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393064425/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0393064425&linkCode=as2&tag=galaccactu-20).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 18, 2013, 12:15:01 PM
12 Mistakes Nearly Everyone Who Writes about Grammar Mistakes Makes (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/11/18/12-mistakes-nearly-everyone-who-writes-about-grammar-mistakes-makes)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 18, 2013, 03:11:58 PM
Holy crap. This post is going gangbusters. It's gotten over 1700 views today, compared to previous highs of about 100 views in the last 30 days.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on November 18, 2013, 03:34:06 PM
Whoa.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 18, 2013, 03:59:17 PM
It's a good one.  I like the bit at the end about Davidson's Law, or whatever the kids are calling it nowadays.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 18, 2013, 09:24:47 PM
Thanks!

Also, it looks like I might break 5000 views today.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 19, 2013, 02:42:47 AM
Jeepers!  If your wildly popular blog somehow yields a book deal, would you at least consider having floating disembodied heads on the cover.  They don't have to be prophets (because derivative); they could be linguists (because homage).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 19, 2013, 08:26:53 AM
I hit 5,329 yesterday and have already broken 6,000 today. This is nuts.

And if I do get a book deal, I promise that I will at least consider having floating heads on the cover.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 19, 2013, 08:49:00 AM
 :wub:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 19, 2013, 11:01:34 AM
I wonder if people like it so much because it's a list. What is it with lists?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 19, 2013, 11:16:39 AM
I don't know. As much as Buzzfeed and its ilk bug me, it's clear that they've found a formula that works.

At least I resisted the urge to dump in a bunch of animated GIFs.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on November 19, 2013, 04:35:34 PM
I can't seem to access the URL.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 19, 2013, 05:27:12 PM
Are you getting a database connection error? It's been doing that all day because my server apparently can't handle all the traffic.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 19, 2013, 09:14:52 PM
I've broken 20,000 views for today, and someone from Huffington Post emailed me and asked if I'd be interested in having it posted there.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 19, 2013, 10:54:31 PM
And we knew you before you were famous! Go Jonathon!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 20, 2013, 02:53:17 AM
Are you getting a database connection error? It's been doing that all day because my server apparently can't handle all the traffic.

Oops.  Maybe I've been clicking on that too much.  I'll try to cut back.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Nighthawk on November 20, 2013, 06:27:36 AM
And we knew you before you were famous! Go Jonathon!

So does that mean we're your entourage now?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on November 20, 2013, 08:04:08 AM
Are you getting a database connection error? It's been doing that all day because my server apparently can't handle all the traffic.
That might have been it, I waited it out and eventually got through. Seems like GC is slower these days as well. But I'm not sure that's related?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2013, 08:08:43 AM
Tailleur: It probably is related. They use different databases, but they're on the same server.

Nighthawk: Sure!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 20, 2013, 08:57:24 AM
Oh man, my ex just went on a facebook rant about "grammar" (a comma, actually) and I really really really wanted to link your column. Alas, I am the only person in the conversation who really can't.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on November 20, 2013, 10:49:16 AM
Any idea how so many people found out about this article?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2013, 11:05:22 AM
First it started spreading on Twitter. I usually get a handful of retweets and other people linking to my new posts, but this one really took off. It got picked up by a bunch of people with relatively big followings (5,000–20,000 followers) and just took off from there. Then it started taking off on Facebook as well.

I had an inkling that it might take off and get several hundred or even a couple thousand views. I had no idea it would go nuts like this. The analogy that springs to mind is playing with matches, except the only thing getting burned here is my server. Most of the time, kids who play with matches don't end up doing any real damage. But every once in a while, the conditions are just right for it to turn into a wildfire that burns down half the state.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on November 20, 2013, 12:03:52 PM
I know you don't like lists, but I think they have several powerful effects. Yes I know I am writing a list, har har.

1: They tell you about how long the article is going to be. If it's "The 5 coolest" as opposed to "25 most influential" right there you know one of those two things can be absorbed in just a few minutes. For some people that makes all the difference in the world.

2: It's akin to a sampler platter at a restaurant. You get some quick fire points succinctly put, and that's how most humans *love* their reading. Of course there are some people who want a careful theoretical framework built upon, but there's far more people who are being trained to expect content short and to the point.

3: People can be relied on to want to read, "The secret stuff those people you admire don't want you to know because it's the only thing keeping them on their pedestal." Think how many books are sold with that premise. Condensing it further into a quick to read 1-2 page format is powerful stuff. It's why sites like Cracked and Buzzfeed are so phenomenal in terms of readers.

Ultimately I think it's bad when everything (meaning all articles) are this way, but I see it much like bait that lures readers into returning, and perhaps reading the more intricate writings an author has put out. Much like a short story can lead to somebody buying an author's novel.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2013, 06:29:40 PM
It's now on Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathon-owen/grammar-mistakes_b_4312009.html).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 21, 2013, 09:12:15 AM
Tailleur: It's not that I hate list articles per se. I just kind of hate the way Buzzfeed has refined them and turned them into addictive, time-wasting, insubstantial garbage (not that everything on Buzzfeed is like that). But you're right that there are some good sides too, and when used properly, it can be a very effective format.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 12, 2013, 01:10:23 PM
Especially for Rivka ;) : Yes, Irregardless Is a Word (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/12/12/yes-irregardless-is-a-word/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 12, 2013, 03:57:38 PM
Fair enough. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 12, 2013, 04:01:22 PM
 :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 12, 2013, 04:10:27 PM
I'm still going to tell my daughter it's not a real word, though. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 12, 2013, 04:15:12 PM
You can't win 'em all, I guess. :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 12, 2013, 04:35:07 PM
Hey, I added a modifier.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 12, 2013, 05:34:13 PM
It's still a real word, but that doesn't mean it's a good word.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 12, 2013, 05:45:43 PM
I am using a different meaning of real than you are.

Only time will tell which meaning will survive.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 12, 2013, 09:55:26 PM
Jonathon, that was sweet and cogent.  Now that you've published it, the OED can use your column for a citation.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 13, 2013, 08:17:11 AM
Brilliant!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 13, 2013, 10:46:18 AM
And here's my post on Huffington Post (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathon-owen/yes-irregardless-is-a-wor_b_4434749.html), you know, if you want to go read it again on a different site.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 13, 2013, 11:55:06 AM
Ooh!  More pictures of scantily-clad women on that site.

Irregardless:Regardless::Inflammable:Flammable

Discuss.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on December 19, 2013, 06:49:14 AM
Dude.  That was a frikkin' awesome article.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 19, 2013, 09:38:38 AM
Thanks! B)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 20, 2013, 12:22:21 PM
The pronunciation of Smaug (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2013/12/20/the-pronunciation-of-smaug/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 22, 2013, 01:30:55 PM
I don't pronounce Smaug" as "smog", but I don't pronounce it Tolkien's way, either.  I'd say it "smawg".  But then, you probably can't hear the difference between "marry", "merry", and "Mary", or between "bought" and "bot".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 22, 2013, 01:54:48 PM
I can hear the difference when someone who distinguishes between them says those words, but I don't distinguish between them myself and have a hard time saying them differently.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on December 22, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
I was tripping out on Merry vs. Mary during the Christmas program at Church today. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on December 22, 2013, 07:55:03 PM
Is it a different sound in Now and flower? 

Holy crap that gave me deja vu.  

eta:  Sputnik tells me he meant flour, not flower.  Now my 3% is really swimming.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on December 22, 2013, 08:16:15 PM
The dialog quiz thing that's going around asked whether I pronounced crayon like cray-AHN or to rhyme with dawn. I had no idea how to answer because to me, AHN rhymes with dawn.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 22, 2013, 08:28:15 PM
to me, AHN rhymes with dawn.
*runs screaming*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 22, 2013, 09:05:45 PM
Now and flower (and flour) all have the same consonant sound to me.

To me, crayon does not use the same sound as dawn.  I guess it would if you'd say "Don's early light," but I don't pronounce dawn with the same sound as don.  I think people from the heart of the country would, though.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 23, 2013, 09:11:41 AM
The dialog quiz thing that's going around asked whether I pronounced crayon like cray-AHN or to rhyme with dawn. I had no idea how to answer because to me, AHN rhymes with dawn.

The quiz is based on an old dialect survey, and the original survey has a lot of problems with questions like that. It's really inconsistent, especially when it comes to questions involving the caught/cot merger.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 23, 2013, 09:12:34 AM
Is it a different sound in Now and flower? 

Holy crap that gave me deja vu.  

eta:  Sputnik tells me he meant flour, not flower.  Now my 3% is really swimming.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but now, flour/flower, and Smaug should all have the same vowel.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 23, 2013, 09:16:36 AM
I'd definitely pronounce Smaug with a different vowel sound.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on December 23, 2013, 10:04:50 AM
The dialog quiz thing that's going around asked whether I pronounced crayon like cray-AHN or to rhyme with dawn. I had no idea how to answer because to me, AHN rhymes with dawn.
I had the exact same problem.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on December 23, 2013, 12:17:02 PM
I would either say cr[digraph]n or crey[schwa]n. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on December 24, 2013, 09:15:44 AM
I had a babysitter when I was little who pronounced it to rhyme with crown. I thought that was the weirdest thing ever and thought maybe she didn't actually know what crayons were.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2013, 09:30:39 AM
My dad pronounces it cran, as in cranberry. I had no idea what he was saying the first time I heard him say it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on December 24, 2013, 10:57:08 AM
So that quiz pegged me in either Salt Lake City, Milwaukee, or Madison WI. I think it determined that potato bug was the nail in the coffin for SLC.

I'm not surprised, but I'm fairly certain I've called things in Utah certain things and been told that's not what they are. Did anybody here call the grass between the sidewalk and the road a berm?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2013, 11:00:32 AM
Nope. It's a park strip to me.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on December 24, 2013, 02:01:45 PM
I didn't grow up with a term for that.  That may be because we didn't have a sidewalk from the time I was in 1st grade up.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on December 24, 2013, 03:50:19 PM
Yeah, I never had a word for that but I grew up in a Colorado town with no sidewalks.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Porter on January 07, 2014, 02:01:29 PM
How old were you when you moved to Montana?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 08, 2014, 05:34:41 PM
13
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on January 12, 2014, 06:25:06 AM
I live in the mid atlantic until I was 17, and we moved to Utah, and I thought it only referred to these odd things in Salt Lake where you have curbed grass in the middle of the road.  My grandma called them Parkings.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on January 12, 2014, 08:01:36 AM
I live in the mid atlantic until I was 17,

So like St. Helena island?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on January 12, 2014, 08:34:27 AM
It's a thing:
http://md.water.usgs.gov/publications/wrir-97-4139/html.htm
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on January 12, 2014, 04:20:41 PM
It's a thing:
http://md.water.usgs.gov/publications/wrir-97-4139/html.htm
Huh. So mid-atlantic seaboard then?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 12, 2014, 06:11:15 PM
I'm surprised that people don't know about this.  It's the part of the East Coast between New England and the Southeast.  Then again, being from there may make me more aware of it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on January 12, 2014, 06:43:04 PM
I'm surprised that people don't know about this.  It's the part of the East Coast between New England and the Southeast.  Then again, being from there may make me more aware of it.
Nobody calls Hong Kong the anything Pacific.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 13, 2014, 09:15:53 AM
Lynne Truss and Chicken Little (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/01/13/lynne-truss-and-chicken-little/)

Ruth thought the last one was a bit presumptuous, but I decided to leave it in anyway. >:D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on January 13, 2014, 09:50:59 AM
I loved that you quoted Beowulf,

"HWÆT, WE GAR-DEna in geardagum,
þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!"

I remember my 6th grade teacher playing a recording of those lines in Old English, and I was like, "Duuuuuuude." English isn't English anymore!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 13, 2014, 10:12:17 AM
No kidding! People think Shakespeare's hard to understand, but he's pretty easy compared to Chaucer. And someone without any training can still muddle their way through Chaucer and understand a little of it. But Beowulf? Nope. No way.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 13, 2014, 10:25:46 AM
Linguistic Apocalypse sounds like a cool band name.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on January 14, 2014, 02:09:03 PM
Quote
“we might as well all gooff and kill ourselves.”

FTFY
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on January 14, 2014, 02:12:59 PM
Quote
Maybe linguists are like meteorologists who observe that, contrary to the claims of some individuals, the sky is not actually falling.
This might not be the best analogy, unless you are a global warming denier, or possibly a manmade global warming denier.  The latter would be very consistent with the point you're trying to make. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 14, 2014, 02:30:57 PM
I thought about that, but I decided to ignore it and go with the analogy anyway to stick with the Chicken Little theme.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2014, 08:19:59 AM
Why Teach Grammar? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/03/04/why-teach-grammar/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 04, 2014, 09:22:34 AM
Teaching grammar for its own sake is fine, but learning grammar can also be a tool for upward mobility, for people whose native grammar is nonstandard.  Like with Eliza Doolittle and her posh accent lessons with George Bernard Shaw.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on March 04, 2014, 12:08:07 PM
I liked this line: "Good writing breaks these rules all the time, and following all the rules does little if anything to make bad writing good."

I'm not saying it was good writing or anything, but it still bugs me that a sixth grade teacher changed a word of a poem I wrote for an assignment because he didn't think the word I used was grammatically correct. But the word he wanted me to use wasn't what I meant!

(Ironically, I don't even remember the actual poem anymore, just the incident.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2014, 12:39:53 PM
Teaching grammar for its own sake is fine, but learning grammar can also be a tool for upward mobility, for people whose native grammar is nonstandard.  Like with Eliza Doolittle and her posh accent lessons with George Bernard Shaw.

I wholeheartedly agree that people—especially nonnatives or those who speak nonstandard English—ought to learn to read, write, and speak Standard English. But that's not the same thing as learning grammar.

I liked this line: "Good writing breaks these rules all the time, and following all the rules does little if anything to make bad writing good."

I'm not saying it was good writing or anything, but it still bugs me that a sixth grade teacher changed a word of a poem I wrote for an assignment because he didn't think the word I used was grammatically correct. But the word he wanted me to use wasn't what I meant!

(Ironically, I don't even remember the actual poem anymore, just the incident.)

I would wager that a lot of people have had incidents like that, and this is precisely why a lot of people are so insecure about their writing or their speech. They hear the message over and over again that they're doing it wrong because they haven't mastered an arcane list of rules, and eventually they just give up. A few others can overcome this because they have enough natural aptitude (usually because they're excellent readers, I think) to absorb the rules or to realize that the rules aren't all they're cracked up to be.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 04, 2014, 12:49:01 PM
Some of us loved grammar class and think many of the rules are cool.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on March 04, 2014, 12:56:50 PM
I liked grammar in school, don't get me wrong. I was jokingly called the "grammar buff" in high school. (That started after an English teacher said to me, "You certainly are a grammar buff.")

And certain grammar errors bug me a lot.

But I don't think we need to be obsessive about the rules.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2014, 09:51:33 AM
And now I have a guest post on the Macmillan Dictionary blog: "Grammar and Grammar (http://www.macmillandictionaryblog.com/grammar-and-grammar)".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2014, 09:54:34 AM
Some of us loved grammar class and think many of the rules are cool.

I would have loved it if it had been taught better—I certainly loved grammar once I got to college. And many of the rules are cool, but I think it's important to recognize which rules are valid and which aren't and to teach kids the difference.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 05, 2014, 10:27:34 AM
And now I have a guest post on the Macmillan Dictionary blog: "Grammar and Grammar (http://www.macmillandictionaryblog.com/grammar-and-grammar)".
Quote
And last I checked, linguists are people too, and they have just as much of a say as anyone else. Language is the ultimate democracy, and everyone gets a vote. I vote for greater understanding of what grammar really is.
Nice. :D

I would have loved it if it had been taught better—I certainly loved grammar once I got to college. And many of the rules are cool, but I think it's important to recognize which rules are valid and which aren't and to teach kids the difference.
I had some decent English teachers, who emphasized that these are the rules, but if you know what you are doing you can sometimes break them. I also had some crappy ones, who clearly hated teaching grammar as much as most of my classmates hated learning it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2014, 10:37:53 AM
Quote
And last I checked, linguists are people too, and they have just as much of a say as anyone else. Language is the ultimate democracy, and everyone gets a vote. I vote for greater understanding of what grammar really is.
Nice. :D

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 14, 2014, 12:47:21 PM
I'm trying out a new theme (http://www.arrantpedantry.com). I'm still ironing out some minor style issues, but let me know if you see anything weird or buggy.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 25, 2014, 09:02:44 AM
Over has always meant more than. Get over it. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/04/24/over-has-always-meant-more-than-get-over-it/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 25, 2014, 09:16:53 AM
http://youtu.be/qSK8k_nyUQE?t=1m20s
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 25, 2014, 10:19:02 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VsIRdNSNdw
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 12, 2014, 10:09:36 AM
Mother's Day (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/05/11/mothers-day/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 12, 2014, 11:44:22 AM
So is it Martha's Vineyard or Marthas Vineyard?  I always thought the former.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 12, 2014, 02:08:24 PM
It is actually Martha's Vineyard. It's one of the few exceptions to the ban on apostrophes in place names.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 12, 2014, 02:22:51 PM
I drove to Massachusetts the weekend before last, and remembered the apostrophe on signs.  I suppose the reason the postal service wanted to get rid of apostrophes is that back before modern-day printing and letter sorting equipment, the apostrophes would sometimes fall off the envelopes and clog up the machinery.  Martha's Vineyard, being an affluent area, was probably able to hire servants to manually clean out any apostrophic build-up daily.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 10, 2014, 02:56:05 PM
Do usage debates make you nauseous? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/06/10/do-usage-debates-make-you-nauseous/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on June 10, 2014, 07:35:33 PM
Could it be they are using "nausea" in the same way one might use "noxious"? They both cause a condition.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 10, 2014, 09:16:30 PM
I always say "nauseated" rather than "nauseous" ever since a high school English teacher embarrassed me in front of the class.  I'd asked to be excused because I was nauseous, and he answered, "Yeah, I guess you do kind of smell disgusting".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on June 10, 2014, 09:47:48 PM
That column made me want to puke. :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: BlackBlade on June 10, 2014, 10:52:38 PM
I always say "nauseated" rather than "nauseous" ever since a high school English teacher embarrassed me in front of the class.  I'd asked to be excused because I was nauseous, and he answered, "Yeah, I guess you do kind of smell disgusting".
:o
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 11, 2014, 05:09:53 AM
He meant it as a joke and a usage lesson; I was mortified nonetheless.  He apologized later, but I still say "nauseated".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 11, 2014, 08:06:40 AM
Could it be they are using "nausea" in the same way one might use "noxious"? They both cause a condition.

Who's "they"? I'm not sure I understand the question.

I always say "nauseated" rather than "nauseous" ever since a high school English teacher embarrassed me in front of the class.  I'd asked to be excused because I was nauseous, and he answered, "Yeah, I guess you do kind of smell disgusting".

What a jerk. :pirate:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on August 30, 2014, 03:22:52 PM
You should have vomited on him.  Then you could be both!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 08, 2014, 03:32:42 PM
Is the Oxford comma ungrammatical? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/09/08/is-the-oxford-comma-ungrammatical/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 08, 2014, 04:06:27 PM
Quote
I don’t pretend that my preference is an ironclad grammatical law or proof of my superiority.
I do.

Everyone should use the Oxford comma because it makes me happy!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 09, 2014, 10:31:03 AM
I'm exercising a ton of self-restraint and not quoting Vampire Weekend in the comments section. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 06, 2014, 09:44:57 AM
http://drdoyleeditorial.com/2014/10/06/of-course-its-a-good-post-after-all-i-agree-with-it/

(I follow Debra Doyle on G+.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2014, 10:08:20 AM
 B)

It blows my mind how much traffic I still get on that post.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2014, 10:08:44 AM
New post on Visual Thesaurus (not paywalled this time): Less Usage Problems (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wc/less-usage-problems/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 06, 2014, 10:19:05 AM
B)

It blows my mind how much traffic I still get on that post.
It's because you included the word "listicle". ;)


New post on Visual Thesaurus (not paywalled this time): Less Usage Problems (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wc/less-usage-problems/).
Hmm. Ok, I think I agree with that.

But it's still less coffee, fewer donuts.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 07, 2014, 12:10:19 PM
Here's a teaser for my actual column in Copyediting (http://www.copyediting.com/settling-disagreement-there). The full column is only available to subscribers.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 23, 2014, 10:32:41 AM
I was interviewed for Grammarist (http://grammarist.com/interviews/interview-with-jonathon-owen/), but it looks like their site is having trouble today.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 23, 2014, 10:44:55 AM
Kudos.  You come off as charming and humble.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 23, 2014, 10:47:22 AM
Thanks! I was a little thrown by a few of the questions, especially "greatest contribution to the English language" one. I was like, I'm just this guy, you know.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 23, 2014, 10:56:59 AM
You could have claimed to have coined a ridiculously common word.  Or to have invented intransitive verbs.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 23, 2014, 11:01:37 AM
Psh. Intransitive verbs are old hat. Even monotransitive and ditransitive verbs aren't cool. You know what is cool? Tritransitive verbs. That's right—verbs with three objects. When I finally get those to catch on, then I'll really be something.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 23, 2014, 11:18:36 AM
Kudos.  You come off as charming and humble.
Exactly right.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 23, 2014, 01:35:54 PM
Stop! My ears are burning.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 23, 2014, 04:19:56 PM
They make creams for that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on November 14, 2014, 09:55:23 AM
Buttbuttination is tritransitive.  Patient, instrument, and motive.  Though I guess... that's murder, right?  Doesn't buttbuttination also have political alignment and add the additional element of inoffense?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 14, 2014, 10:04:21 AM
I don't see how it's tritransitive unless you're counting oblique objects, but even then I'm not sure how motive counts. But I meant tritransitive in the sense of having three verbal arguments in addition to a subject.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2014, 10:48:02 AM
My review of Steven Pinker's newest book, The Sense of Style. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/11/20/book-review-the-sense-of-style/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 20, 2014, 11:23:01 AM
Interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 26, 2014, 12:19:45 PM
Thanks! I was a little thrown by a few of the questions, especially "greatest contribution to the English language" one. I was like, I'm just this guy, you know.

You totally missed your chance to plug the forums!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 26, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
I've occasionally thought about posting a link to the forum on Arrant Pedantry, since that gets a lot more traffic than my main blog, but I don't know if I want to invite a whole bunch of internet strangers here. New blood may be nice, but it may also be way too disruptive.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on November 26, 2014, 01:33:12 PM
I was mostly just calling this your greatest contribution to the English language.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 26, 2014, 01:34:05 PM
Oh, I gotcha. Well, I'll take it. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 01, 2014, 08:44:37 AM
Celtic and the History of the English Language (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/12/01/celtic-and-the-history-of-the-english-language/)

Warning: it's really freaking long.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 01, 2014, 04:20:26 PM
Did I scare everyone off with that warning? To my surprise, it's one of my most popular posts in months.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 01, 2014, 09:03:46 PM
Did I scare everyone off with that warning?
In my case, not so much scared off as saved for when I got home.

Very interesting. I was not aware of the claims about Celtic languages having flavored English, but I think you make some very thoughtful points.

(Also, I believe the phrase In Welsh, however, gwneud may have some accidental excess italicization. Darn open/close thingies.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 01, 2014, 09:11:13 PM
Did I scare everyone off with that warning?
In my case, not so much scared off as saved for when I got home.

Very interesting. I was not aware of the claims about Celtic languages having flavored English, but I think you make some very thoughtful points.

Probably because it's kind of a fringe theory that isn't taken very seriously by most scholars of the history of English. And thanks!

Quote
(Also, I believe the phrase In Welsh, however, gwneud may have some accidental excess italicization. Darn open/close thingies.)

Diolch yn fawr.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on December 01, 2014, 09:23:11 PM
It makes me think that the tile distribution and points value must be very different in the Welsh version of Scrabble.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: dkw on December 02, 2014, 05:58:55 AM
I think your standards for "really freaking long" need to be recalibrated.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 02, 2014, 08:02:16 AM
Well, it's really long compared to my usual posts. But yeah, 2500 words is not really that long.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 02, 2014, 08:02:49 AM
It makes me think that the tile distribution and points value must be very different in the Welsh version of Scrabble.

Yeah. There's no z, q, x, or j, but I think they more than make up for it with all the w's and y's.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 02, 2014, 09:05:57 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrabble_letter_distributions#Welsh

(Reviews on Amazon indicate that the J is an error and advise using it as a blank.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 02, 2014, 09:13:34 AM
As it says, j is used for words and names borrowed from English, as in the quintessentially Welsh name Jones. So I guess it depends on how much of a purist you want to be.

I wonder why they decide to omit mutated words. They're still words, and it's not like they violate the normal Scrabble rules about capitals, spaces, and punctuation.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 24, 2014, 03:09:24 PM
Another Day, Another Worthless Grammar Quiz (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/12/24/another-day-another-worthless-grammar-quiz/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 28, 2014, 02:02:46 PM
Well, that post has certainly drawn a lot of . . . interesting comments.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 29, 2014, 10:52:49 AM
Indeed.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 07, 2015, 07:38:47 AM
On Visual Thesaurus and Vocabulary.com: Clear and/or Unclear (http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wc/clear-andor-unclear/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 12, 2015, 02:42:47 PM
Why is it "woe is me"? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/02/11/why-is-it-woe-is-me/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 23, 2015, 08:20:22 AM
Fifty Shades of Bad Grammar Advice (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/02/23/fifty-shades-of-bad-grammar-advice/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 23, 2015, 09:50:37 AM
Quote
Changing “doesn’t sound very exciting” to “it does not sound very exciting” is probably fine if you’re editing dialogue for Data from Star Trek, but it just isn’t how normal people talk.
;D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on February 26, 2015, 07:28:50 AM
Celtic and the History of the English Language (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2014/12/01/celtic-and-the-history-of-the-english-language/)

Warning: it's really freaking long.

I just got around to reading this. Really interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 26, 2015, 07:40:02 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 04, 2015, 12:24:38 PM
Why Descriptivists Are Usage Liberals (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/03/04/why-descriptivsts-are-usage-liberals/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2015, 02:33:57 PM
No, Online Grammar Errors Have Not Increased by 148% (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/03/05/no-online-grammar-errors-have-not-increased-by-148/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 05, 2015, 03:33:30 PM
Nicely analyzed.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 05, 2015, 03:37:17 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 27, 2015, 12:06:37 PM
Language, Logic, and Correctness (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/04/27/language-logic-and-correctness/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: dkw on April 27, 2015, 04:17:51 PM
Nice.

I think you're missing a word, though:  "one commenter named Kevin S. has made similar arguments Kory Stamper’s blog, Harmless Drudgery."
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 27, 2015, 04:46:20 PM
Ah, thanks.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 27, 2015, 07:28:56 PM
Very interesting.

My favorite line
Quote
This is why the war of the scriptivists rages on with no end in sight.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2015, 10:56:39 AM
You Are Not Dr. Seuss (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/05/18/you-are-not-dr-seuss/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 18, 2015, 11:24:59 AM
Quote
[T]here are an awful lot of children’s book authors who apparently feel compelled to write in verse, despite being terrible at it.
Too, too true.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 18, 2015, 12:15:52 PM
That was a terrible poem you quoted.  (But a good column-type thingy).  I started reading it and moaned, "Oh no!", to which my husband, thinking I'd read some awful news, asked what happened.  I had to admit that all that happened was that I read a bad poem on the internet.  He said, "It must have been a really bad one."

"It was."

I used to love to read Dr. Seuss out loud to my son, because it was so much fun.  Jack Prelutsky's, "Tyrannosaurus Was a Beast" was also a delight to read out loud, because of the rhythm of it; the rhyme was secondary.  (Clankety clankety clankety clank.  Ankylosaurus was built like a tank)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2015, 12:48:31 PM
That was a terrible poem you quoted.  (But a good column-type thingy).

Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Dobie on May 18, 2015, 12:51:55 PM
You should have written it like this:

You're not Dr. Seuss.
You cannot write verse.
The rhythm is awful.
The meter's perverse.

So stick to your job.
Write your press releases.
Here's hoping that all
Of your "poetry" ceases.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Keith on May 18, 2015, 02:48:15 PM
A Suessian type you are not
Upon his good name you're a blot
 Stop messing with Green Eggs
 Go transcode some mpegs
Or read up on meter - a lot.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on May 18, 2015, 07:29:50 PM
You folks are funny. :D

Nice column, Jonathon.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2015, 07:51:01 PM
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 19, 2015, 12:21:48 PM
I am inordinately proud of this limerick (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/05/18/you-are-not-dr-seuss/#comment-15651).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 19, 2015, 12:41:18 PM
My friend Alma just raised the bar (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/05/18/you-are-not-dr-seuss/#comment-15654).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 19, 2015, 01:31:05 PM
You are both hilarious.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 20, 2015, 03:29:09 PM
Aw, thanks. :blushing:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on May 22, 2015, 11:43:55 AM
You are both hilarious.

Agreed. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on May 28, 2015, 09:24:59 PM
Oh man, there's nothing like a perfectly intact meter.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 29, 2015, 01:34:47 AM
Unless you are hoping to get out of paying for parking on the street.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 21, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
This Is Not the Grammatical Promised Land (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/08/21/this-is-not-the-grammatical-promised-land/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 21, 2015, 11:52:48 AM
Smackdown!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 21, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
Indeed. I especially enjoyed:
Quote
In technical terms, pretending that you don’t understand someone is called engaging in uncooperative communication. In layman’s terms, it’s called being an ass.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 21, 2015, 01:07:16 PM
I see his followers (I refuse to call them Grammar Israelites) have come to do battle.  :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 21, 2015, 01:11:11 PM
Indeed. I especially enjoyed:
Quote
In technical terms, pretending that you don’t understand someone is called engaging in uncooperative communication. In layman’s terms, it’s called being an ass.

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 14, 2015, 08:35:14 AM
Overanxious about Ambiguity (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/09/14/overanxious-about-ambiguity/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 14, 2015, 10:21:29 AM
(I originally had this post in the wrong thread)

Thank you for your continued, level-headed efforts to calm linguistic outrage.

What would you think about a similar argument toward people who freak out about the ambiguity of not using the Oxford comma? I was in such a conversation on facebook the other day, where the example sentences showing "ambiguity" could easily be re-written to make it clear what the author meant. I was trying to argue that writers who meant something a certain way wouldn't be likely to write it in the ridiculous order that the example sentences showed and that most of the time nobody gets confused when you leave out the Oxford comma. I haven't really seen any convincing examples of authentic and troubling ambiguity, but maybe I just haven't seen the right things.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 14, 2015, 10:48:39 AM
I've seen some real-life examples that could be ambiguous, but technically they could be ambiguous even with the Oxford comma. One of the most popular ones I've seen lately is something like "Nelson Mandela, a dildo collector and an 800-year-old demigod." But even with the comma, you could still read it as "Nelson Mandela (who by the way is a dildo collector) and an 800-year-old demigod."

The problem for me isn't real ambiguity, but just a mental hiccup as I read. When you read a list, the inflection on each item goes up until the last one, which goes down. When I see a list without an Oxford comma, I tend to read it as "(my parents ↑), (Ayn Rand and God ↑) (oh wait that's the end of the list)". You have to be obtuse or uncooperative to think that the person really means that Ayn Rand and God are her parents. So it's not really ambiguous, but I feel like it's missing a little cue as to how it's to be parsed: "(my parents ↑), (Ayn Rand ↑), and (God ↓)".

That's why I like it and why I find arguments for omitting it to be less than compelling. Sure, I guess you don't strictly need it, but what does it hurt to include it?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 14, 2015, 01:52:18 PM
Those were actually the samples in the conversation I was having. The ambiguity, though, is created by the order it which the items are listed. When you start with a proper name or a plural, it's more likely that you wouldn't expect a list of three items and you'd read it with the wrong intonation, like you mentioned. But what if those sentences were written this way:

"An 800-year-old demigod, a dildo collector and Nelson Mandela."
"God, my parents and Ayn Rand."

See? No way you could misconstrue those.

I'd also argue that in real life, people seldom list three such unrelated things. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of list-like sentence you're even going to see are going to be things like "ham, roast beef and chicken" or "bats, gloves and balls." I don't think there are really very many instances where people need that comma to read the sentence correctly.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 14, 2015, 02:08:15 PM
But I would still read it as "bats↑, gloves and balls↑" oh wait that's the end of the list. I'm not really misconstruing the sentence, just misparsing it as I read and then mentally correcting myself when I get to the end. It's like a headline like "woman arrested for jaywalking found dead in cell". It's not really structurally ambiguous, but I initially read the first verb as the main verb in the clause, not as a modifier for the subject.

Like I said, it's just a little mental hiccup, but it still happens even though I should know to watch out for it.

And I'm still not seeing a strong argument for omitting it. Saying "but you don't need it most of the time" isn't really compelling to me. Why do need it to not be there?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on September 15, 2015, 04:59:33 AM
Hmmm ... when I read a sentence with an Oxford comma, I feel like it makes me pause an extra time, like, "bats, (pause) gloves, (pause) (oh, better pause, there's an 'and' coming up) and balls." I've always felt that it throws of my rhythm that way.

So, that's not a very compelling argument by any means, but that's why it bugs me a little to see it there when it's not needed. I've already conditioned myself to pause when I see the "and" coming up after two items have been listed. But maybe I conditioned myself to read it that way because I prefer to write it that way? I can definitely see where people who don't read it the way I do wouldn't see why it matters.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 16, 2015, 12:07:23 AM
Nice column.  I like all those cogent versions of sagacity.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 16, 2015, 08:20:31 AM
Thanks! It's always good to hear quality feedback from my fans.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on September 22, 2015, 08:02:25 PM
I think linguists/grammarians are like normal people in that they see their own stance as moderate ground and everyone who strongly disagrees with them as a philistine/ammorite. 
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 22, 2015, 08:57:40 PM
Everyone who is more permissive than you is a linguistic anarchist. Everyone who is stricter than you is a grammatical fascist.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 04, 2015, 09:30:29 AM
The drunk Australian accent theory (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/11/04/the-drunk-australian-accent-theory/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 04, 2015, 02:35:24 PM
 >_<

Ugh. You just know that "speaks to just two thirds capacity" is going to somehow get combined with the "only use 10% of the brain" idiocy and last forever -- and not just to describe one nationality.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 04, 2015, 03:33:43 PM
Oh, no. I hadn't even considered that. :angst:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 04, 2015, 05:16:14 PM
My grandkids are going to think people use 10% of their brains, 33% of their speech ability, and swallow 8 spiders per day. (The last explains the other 2, natch.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 04, 2015, 06:32:49 PM
 >_<
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 04, 2015, 07:53:59 PM
You can't keep that up for long. And as soon as you stop, bam! The spiders get in.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 04, 2015, 09:19:50 PM
 :D

*gags on spider*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on November 14, 2015, 09:06:57 AM
Great TOPP.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: pooka on November 17, 2015, 05:50:59 PM
:lol:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 30, 2015, 08:58:29 AM
How to Use Quotation Marks (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/11/30/how-to-use-quotation-marks/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 30, 2015, 09:29:45 AM
Love it. And the flow chart is the best part. I think I am going to print it out and hang it up in my office.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 30, 2015, 10:38:38 AM
 :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 30, 2015, 01:08:02 PM
I showed it to a couple of my co-workers -- one of whom got a huge kick out of it -- and hung it up. It is far enough away that I can't actually read the text, but I keep grinning when I look up and see it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 30, 2015, 09:42:22 PM
That made my day.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 30, 2015, 10:52:56 PM
 :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 02, 2015, 08:20:17 AM
Last night was parent-teacher conferences at my daughter's high school. I had the last slot of the night with her English teacher, so we had time to chat a bit after we discussed my daughter.

She loves the flowchart, and I think your blog may have a new follower.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 02, 2015, 10:49:20 AM
 :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Farmgirl on December 22, 2015, 07:17:37 PM
I sure wish there was a way to get that flowchart on the wall of every office at BBC News.   I read BBC News and they have a totally inappropriate love for putting all sorts of things inside quotation marks within their headlines.  Just go to BBC News website at some point and look for yourself
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 22, 2015, 07:26:44 PM
One commenter (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/11/30/how-to-use-quotation-marks/#comment-17634) on that post mentioned that practice. Apparently it's a common way in British journalism to say that someone has made some sort of claim. I hate it, because they look like quotations but really aren't—it's basically the journalist's summary of what someone has said.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Farmgirl on December 22, 2015, 08:37:52 PM
But they aren't really even quotes from anyone.

A headline that they run as 'Terror attack' foiled in France  could just as simply be written Terror Attack Foiled in France.   No quotes needed.  It drives me nuts because they are so unnecessary and change the whole intonation when I read it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 22, 2015, 08:54:30 PM
But they aren't really even quotes from anyone.

A headline that they run as 'Terror attack' foiled in France  could just as simply be written Terror Attack Foiled in France.   No quotes needed.  It drives me nuts because they are so unnecessary and change the whole intonation when I read it.

Right. So what those quote marks would mean, if I understand correctly, is that they're saying that someone called it a terror attack. I don't really get it, and I find it really annoying too, but apparently there's some sort of weird method to it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 06, 2016, 12:08:54 PM
The Atlantic Is Wrong about Dog Pants (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/01/06/the-atlantic-is-wrong-about-dog-pants/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 06, 2016, 05:19:23 PM
When someone says "dog pants", a garment is not what comes to mind.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 06, 2016, 06:07:26 PM
Well, yeah, there's that too.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 07, 2016, 09:21:08 AM
Quote
words mean things

So my dictionary keeps insisting.

Yeah, the author there is being deliberately obtuse.  Or maybe he's genuinely obtuse.  I just can't figure out his angle.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 07, 2016, 09:40:40 AM
I'm not sure either. The tongue-in-cheek parts and bad logic make it sound like he's not serious, but the rest of it makes it sound like he's dead serious.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 28, 2016, 12:13:07 PM
Historic, Historical (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/01/28/historic-historical/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 28, 2016, 03:29:03 PM
Historic, Historical (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/01/28/historic-historical/)

Most of those are easy to think about, but historic/historical really hurts my head. I don't know why it's so hard for me to separate the different uses.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 04, 2016, 11:03:15 AM
A Rule Worth Giving Up On (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/02/04/a-rule-worth-giving-up-on/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on February 04, 2016, 01:32:37 PM
A rule up on which I'm more than ready to give!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on February 04, 2016, 09:07:26 PM
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on February 25, 2016, 06:09:39 AM
A little late, but I meant to to tell you I loved the flow chart in this column.

How to Use Quotation Marks (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2015/11/30/how-to-use-quotation-marks/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on February 25, 2016, 07:43:36 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 28, 2016, 11:38:23 AM
The Taxing Etymology of Ask (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/03/28/the-taxing-etymology-of-ask/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 28, 2016, 12:20:51 PM
That was pretty great. It also made me a little sad about lost etymologies that we may never find. Linguistics is like a field where you can kind of find out cool stuf . . . for a while, until you go further and further back in time and then you have no way of ever knowing. It gets more nihilistic the further back in time you go.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 28, 2016, 12:22:08 PM
Yeah, me too. There are a lot of questions in historical linguistics that will never be answered unless someone develops a time machine.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 28, 2016, 02:23:43 PM
Quote
So how do we explain this?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
:D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 29, 2016, 10:34:48 AM
:)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 04, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
On Saturday I presented at a conference for the first time. Here's a short post on my presentation with a link to a PDF of my slides (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/04/04/aces-presentation-copyediting-and-corpus-linguistics/).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 04, 2016, 08:43:01 PM
Very interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 05, 2016, 09:22:59 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on May 01, 2016, 11:02:34 AM
That was interesting and the slides were nicely done.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 01, 2016, 12:56:57 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2016, 12:05:48 PM
On a Collision Course with Reality (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/05/18/on-a-collision-course-with-reality/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 18, 2016, 02:21:49 PM
You know I disagree with you on many of the rules. But this one -- which, I will note, I not only have never heard of, but which boggles the physicist part of me, as well as the grammar prescriptivist part -- is simply bizarre. I am totally with you on this one.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2016, 02:30:06 PM
Yeah, it's really mind-boggling that someone thought this rule up in the first place, let alone found it important enough to codify in a style book.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 18, 2016, 02:50:30 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 18, 2016, 07:23:37 PM
I think one of my trolls might be back (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/05/18/on-a-collision-course-with-reality/#comment-17724).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 18, 2016, 08:09:50 PM
Yeah, I saw that earlier and :sarcasm: at it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 19, 2016, 11:26:00 AM
Okay, now I have no idea what he's trying to say. (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/05/18/on-a-collision-course-with-reality/#comment-17738)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 19, 2016, 12:26:09 PM
Everyone who wants to can ignore the rule with no penalty. But the rule is still not wrong.

 :wacko:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 19, 2016, 01:46:36 PM
It makes perfect sense!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 06, 2016, 08:25:14 AM
Book Review: Perfect English Grammar (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/06/06/book-review-perfect-english-grammar/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 15, 2016, 09:23:49 AM
Sorry, Merriam-Webster, but Hot Dogs Are Not Sandwiches (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/06/15/sorry-merriam-webster-but-hot-dogs-are-not-sandwiches/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Farmgirl on July 06, 2016, 06:25:17 PM
Jon - do you have a column I can refer to that clarifies the use of "flesh out" versus "flush out"?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 07, 2016, 08:22:11 AM
I don't, but here's one from Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/top-10-commonly-confused-words-vol-2) and one from Grammar Girl (http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/flesh-out-or-flush-out).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Farmgirl on July 07, 2016, 05:56:41 PM
Thanks.  I had already found the one from Grammar Girl, but felt it was a bit lacking in clarification - but I guess it says what I need to know.

(was discussing with a local journalist who used 'flush out' instead of 'flesh out' the city council's work on clarifying, expanding and defining the fire department policy)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 13, 2016, 03:36:27 PM
Book Review: But Can I Start a Sentence with "But"? Advice from the Chicago Style Q&A (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/07/12/book-review-but-can-i-start-a-sentence-with-but/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on July 13, 2016, 05:19:59 PM
Great review. And the book sounds like fun.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 13, 2016, 05:34:03 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 26, 2016, 12:30:32 PM
Whoa There (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/08/26/whoa-there/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 26, 2016, 02:37:56 PM
 B)

Also
Quote
I’ve never read anything by Bujold
is something you should correct.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 27, 2016, 09:50:21 AM
Yeah, yeah, I know. I've heard a lot of good things about them but just haven't gotten around to reading them yet.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on August 27, 2016, 07:56:31 PM
Woah means something different from whoa? I wonder what she thinks it means?

Woah is me?  :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 27, 2016, 11:58:42 PM
Yeah, yeah, I know. I've heard a lot of good things about them but just haven't gotten around to reading them yet.
Fair enough. :)

So many good books. So little time.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 28, 2016, 12:20:07 PM
Woah means something different from whoa? I wonder what she thinks it means?

She says, "'Whoa!' is a command meaning 'Stop!' 'Woah!' is an exclamation of astonishment, rendered phonetically." I'm not really sure how she thinks that's rendered phonetically, unless she rhymes it with Noah.

Quote
Woah is me?  :p

Oh, man, that would have been a great title for the post. I wish I'd thought of that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on August 28, 2016, 01:54:08 PM
Woah means something different from whoa? I wonder what she thinks it means?
She says, "'Whoa!' is a command meaning 'Stop!' 'Woah!' is an exclamation of astonishment, rendered phonetically." I'm not really sure how she thinks that's rendered phonetically, unless she rhymes it with Noah.
Huh. I'm assuming there's no evidence for that definition, right? To me, "whoa" means both of those things.

Woah is me?  :p

Oh, man, that would have been a great title for the post. I wish I'd thought of that.

You're welcome.  :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 28, 2016, 03:40:17 PM
Huh. I'm assuming there's no evidence for that definition, right? To me, "whoa" means both of those things.

Exactly. The evidence is that there is one exclamation, whoa, that is used in a couple of different but related ways and is commonly misspelled.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 05, 2016, 10:43:06 AM
Book Review: The Subversive Copy Editor (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/09/05/book-review-the-subversive-copy-editor/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 05, 2016, 11:36:41 AM
 B)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 09, 2016, 08:19:27 AM
To Boldly Split Infinitives (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/09/08/to-boldly-split-infinitives/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 09, 2016, 08:59:08 AM
Quote
We could call this phenomenon Steve, and it wouldn’t change what it is.
True, but it would be terribly confusing.

The poll results are hilarious.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 09, 2016, 09:20:01 AM
Quote
We could call this phenomenon Steve, and it wouldn’t change what it is.
True, but it would be terribly confusing.

True. Ideally, the name for the thing would be pretty descriptive, but it's hard to find a label that's succinct, memorable, descriptive, and resilient to changes in our understanding of the underlying phenomenon.

Quote
The poll results are hilarious.

I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, though I would have expected at least a couple of "yes" responses.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 09, 2016, 09:26:14 AM
Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't find a 90% or 95% agreement nearly as hilarious.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 09, 2016, 09:40:41 AM
I spoke too soon: I got my first "yes" response.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 09, 2016, 09:45:32 AM
It's someone reading this discussion and messing with us. :P
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 09, 2016, 10:07:15 AM
Probably.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on September 10, 2016, 07:54:57 PM
I told my husband that you did a column on split infinitives in honor of the 50th anniversary of Star Trek. He said, "What does Star Trek have to do with split infinitives?" And then he got it.  :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on September 10, 2016, 08:03:38 PM
Speaking of anniversaries, have you done a column on the 400th anniversary of Shakespeare's death? I thought of you when I saw an article in the NY Times about expressions that Shakespeare didn't actually invent.

Shakespeare Didn't Actually Write That. (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/books/shakespeare-didnt-actually-write-that.html)

The article only mentioned two that he didn't write. Wonder if there are others? We know there are lots of expressions we did get from Shakespeare.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 21, 2016, 09:10:15 AM
Book Review: What the F (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/09/21/book-review-what-the-f/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 21, 2016, 10:06:03 AM
 B)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on September 21, 2016, 10:24:09 AM
Sounds interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 27, 2016, 03:23:07 PM
I showed it to a couple of my co-workers -- one of whom got a huge kick out of it -- and hung it up. It is far enough away that I can't actually read the text, but I keep grinning when I look up and see it.
That flowchart (the one about using quotation marks) is still up on the wall in my office. It's far enough away, and the text is small enough, that I cannot read it from where I sit. But I was standing up to deal with something else on that wall, and happened to read it again.

Big grin on my face again. Because it's still awesome.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 27, 2016, 03:24:27 PM
Thanks, Rivka. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 31, 2016, 01:41:04 PM
Stupidity on Singular They (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/10/31/stupidity-on-singular-they/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Kate Boots on November 01, 2016, 08:00:06 AM
That was a really wonderful column-type thingy.  Well done.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 01, 2016, 08:38:57 AM
Thanks, Kate. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 01, 2016, 08:58:09 AM
I kind of feel a little bad for Josh.   You gave him quite a thrashing.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 01, 2016, 09:12:40 AM
Sometimes I feel a little bad when I write take-downs like that, but if you're going to characterize the opponent's point of view as a stupid misunderstanding made by stupid people, well, I don't feel too bad. And if he'd argued that singular they was bad on stylistic grounds and that he or she was better, I'd have been a lot more understanding.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 01, 2016, 09:52:03 AM
I know he was wrong, but that's his right.   Poor dear is ignorant and pompous, and that's a tough combination to pull off.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 01, 2016, 11:00:34 AM
I try to aim for gnorant and pompous.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 15, 2016, 12:33:33 PM
Whence Did They Come? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/11/15/whence-did-they-come/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Dobie on December 09, 2016, 12:12:33 PM
Quote
People have been using "they" in this sense for literally centuries, and I mean literally in the literal sense.
-Steve Kleinedler, Executive Editor, American Heritage Dictionary.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 09, 2016, 12:31:47 PM
Prescriptivism and Language Change (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2016/12/09/prescriptivism-and-language-change/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 09, 2016, 12:32:17 PM
Quote
People have been using "they" in this sense for literally centuries, and I mean literally in the literal sense.
-Steve Kleinedler, Executive Editor, American Heritage Dictionary.

Where does that quote come from, Dobie? (I know Steve, and he's a pretty great guy.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Dobie on December 10, 2016, 11:28:38 AM
An interview on local talk radio.

http://media.wilknewsradio.com/a/117624603/steve-kleinedler-exec-editor-american-heritage-dictionary.htm?q=dictionary
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 13, 2016, 08:11:39 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 20, 2017, 10:24:36 AM
For Whomever the Bell Tolls (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2017/05/19/for-whomever-the-bell-tolls/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 21, 2017, 01:14:13 AM
 :blink:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 21, 2017, 09:26:45 AM
What's that for?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 21, 2017, 11:24:50 AM
I thought I knew how to follow sentence diagrams. But those are over my head.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 22, 2017, 09:40:02 AM
I actually find trees a lot more intuitive than Reed-Kellogg diagrams (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_diagram#Reed.E2.80.93Kellogg_system), but I can see how they might not be clear to someone who hasn't had a linguistics class. Maybe I should try to explain a little better.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 22, 2017, 01:32:28 PM
Oh, it's not you. It's me.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 01, 2017, 08:23:32 AM
Cognates, False and Otherwise (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2017/06/01/cognates-false-and-otherwise/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 02, 2017, 01:07:54 PM
Quote
The German word is essentially just a highly narrowed sense of the word: poison is something you give someone. (Well, hopefully not something you give people.)
Just myself. >_<

(Food poisoning.)

Literal LOL anyway.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 23, 2017, 10:35:57 AM
Politeness and Pragmatics (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2017/08/23/politeness-and-pragmatics/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 23, 2017, 11:21:21 AM
Well put.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 23, 2017, 11:41:31 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 20, 2017, 12:19:48 PM
Book review: Kory Stamper's Word by Word: The Secret Life of Dictionaries/ (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2017/11/20/book-review-word-by-word/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on November 21, 2017, 05:39:39 AM
Have you met Kory in person at ACES or anything like that before?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 21, 2017, 08:02:18 AM
Yes. Two or three times now.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Kate Boots on November 22, 2017, 01:40:44 PM
Ooohhh, you may have just solved my "what to get for the linguist I am sort-of dating" puzzle!  Thanks.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 22, 2017, 11:57:52 PM
I'm going to request that book as my next selection from my (bespoke) book club (they don't have a set list of books that they send out, they send you a questionnaire where you tell them your preferences, and they pick books they think you'll like.  You can write in any odd preferences, and they accommodate them, and you can request a specific book, if you don't want them to pick one for you).

In this bit:
Quote
In another chapter, she relates how she discovered that the word bitch had no stylistic label warning dictionary users that the word is vulgar of offensive
I think you intended "or" instead of "of".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 23, 2017, 02:15:29 PM
Thanks, Tante.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 28, 2017, 12:03:31 PM
Two Space or Not Two Space (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2017/11/28/two-space-or-not-two-space/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 28, 2017, 12:17:19 PM
Quote
After all, it’s not like you’re committing a serious crime, like not using a serial comma.
;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 29, 2017, 08:54:21 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on December 12, 2017, 01:30:52 PM
Aww, I missed the last two of your columns that you posted here. They all used to come up on my FB feed. FB must have messed with the feed again.  :angry:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on December 12, 2017, 01:35:32 PM
I often wonder how many of my friends' Facebook posts I'm not seeing. Sometimes I'll like or comment on a friend's post, and then I suddenly start seeing lots of posts by that person, which makes me think that Facebook is saying "Oh, you interacted with that person. You probably want to interact with them a lot more."

I really wish they'd stop with the algorithms and just let you pick what you want to see.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on December 12, 2017, 01:54:09 PM
I often wonder how many of my friends' Facebook posts I'm not seeing. Sometimes I'll like or comment on a friend's post, and then I suddenly start seeing lots of posts by that person, which makes me think that Facebook is saying "Oh, you interacted with that person. You probably want to interact with them a lot more."

I really wish they'd stop with the algorithms and just let you pick what you want to see.

WORD.

And I see exactly the same thing you're seeing. Just cause I liked the post of someone I rarely interact with, it doesn't mean I want to now see everything that person posts.  :rolleyes:

When I realize I haven't seen the posts of someone (or a page) I like to follow in a while, I deliberately go to that person's page and read/like/comment on posts, just so FB will start showing me that on my feed again.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 09, 2018, 12:10:57 PM
The Whole Truth (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2018/01/09/the-whole-truth/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 09, 2018, 01:27:06 PM
Interesting!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 08, 2018, 12:22:00 PM
Skunked Terms and Scorched Earth (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2018/03/08/skunked-terms-and-scorched-earth/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 08, 2018, 05:35:41 PM
Interesting!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on March 08, 2018, 07:20:35 PM
I don't believe I've ever heard of "skunked" terms before.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 08, 2018, 07:30:33 PM
I don't recall hearing the term before, but I have seen the concept.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 09, 2018, 08:38:50 AM
The term was coined by Bryan Garner in his usage dictionary. If you aren't an editor or you don't read usage dictionaries for fun (and who doesn't?!), then you might not have encountered it before.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on March 09, 2018, 12:42:15 PM
 :D

I've done editing on a volunteer basis only (for non-profits). I don't read usage dictionaries for fun, in general, though I may have been known to look at some on occasion. ;)  :whistling:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 09, 2018, 12:24:08 PM
Is Change Okay or Not? (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2018/05/09/is-change-okay-or-not/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 09, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Very interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 09, 2018, 08:46:26 PM
Well, I'm glad you think so, because I'm having a LOT of arguments on Twitter with editors who don't seem to have read the whole thing.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 09, 2018, 10:39:10 PM
Yeah, I can't claim to be surprised.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 10, 2018, 09:27:28 AM
To be fair, it's a lot of stuff to try to cram into one post, plus it never really goes over well when you tell a bunch of people, "This thing that you think is so valuable and take so much professional pride in is totally bogus."
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 10, 2018, 10:15:39 AM
Agreed on both points.

I actually started reading the post thinking it was going to be one of the ones I disagree with you on. (Although I find those interesting most of the time too.) But you made a number of really good points.

Also, it happens not to be one of the specific usage issues that I care about. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 10, 2018, 10:19:53 AM
Thanks! I was getting so much pushback on Twitter that I was starting to feel like I was shouting down a well.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on May 10, 2018, 10:51:19 PM
If I'm Echo, does that make you Narcissus?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on May 11, 2018, 07:32:50 AM
Ha! Sadly accurate.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Dobie on May 11, 2018, 12:40:56 PM
Well, I'm glad you think so, because I'm having a LOT of arguments on Twitter with editors who don't seem to have read the whole thing.

Referring to people who argue on Twitter, "who don't seem to have read the whole thing" is redundant.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 07, 2018, 10:00:50 AM
A newsletter that I write for is changing from a newsletter to premium online articles. The first three are free, including my column on cleft sentences (https://www.copyediting.com/grammar-on-the-edge-its-cleft-sentences-that-were-talking-about). Check it out!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 07, 2018, 11:13:44 AM
Interesting! I knew that sentences could be restructured for emphasis (as probably most native English speakers do), but I had no idea there was a name for it.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on June 08, 2018, 04:04:23 AM
I enjoyed that.

There is a typo in the eighth paragraph, reserve instead of reverse.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 08, 2018, 09:21:36 AM
Thanks, Rivka and Esther. I'll let them know about the typo.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 05, 2018, 11:50:54 AM
I Request You to Read This Post (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2018/07/05/i-request-you-to-read-this-post/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on July 05, 2018, 12:48:27 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on July 05, 2018, 01:17:15 PM
Thanks. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 10, 2018, 09:02:36 AM
100,000 Words Whose Pronunciations Have Changed (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2018/10/10/100000-words-whose-pronunciations-have-changed/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on October 10, 2018, 12:05:20 PM
Only 100,000? ;)

Also, the "great vowel shift" mystifies me. I'm assuming it happened over time, not all of a sudden.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 10, 2018, 12:10:54 PM
Maybe I should do a post on it sometime. It happened over a period of a few centuries, so yeah, it was definitely not a sudden thing.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on October 10, 2018, 12:52:45 PM
I'd read it. I've heard people talk about it, but I've never really absorbed what exactly happened or why.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 10, 2018, 02:18:31 PM
My link only gave me the first four words on the list. Is the remainder of the list behind a paywall?

Seriously, this kind of thing is just the trigger to geek out this word nerd.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 10, 2018, 02:47:25 PM
Yes. You have to subscribe to The Oxford English Dictionary to get the rest.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 10, 2018, 07:32:03 PM
 :rimshot:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 09, 2019, 11:17:20 AM
An Etymological Workout (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2019/01/09/an-etymological-workout/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 10, 2019, 11:02:05 AM
That was fabulous! I'm quite impressed.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 10, 2019, 11:04:21 AM
Thanks!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 13, 2019, 09:27:28 AM
I'm quite impressed.
Same here!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on January 13, 2019, 12:16:39 PM
Interesting article.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 18, 2019, 10:17:02 AM
And here's something I wrote for Grammar Girl about the origin of methinks. (https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/methinks-isn-t-what-you-think)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 20, 2019, 08:41:23 AM
In Hebrew you don't say "I am 25"; you say "I have 25 years". And you also don't say "I'm cold" (like your German example), you say "I have cold[ness]". Oh, and "I like it/that" is "It finds favor in my eyes". So would those be dative constructions as well?

Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 20, 2019, 03:11:41 PM
That depends on whether Hebrew actually has a dative case and whether those constructions use it or something else. The dative is a distinct case usually used for indirect objects, some objects of preposition, and some other oblique objects. Also, in a dative construction, the dative usually takes the place of the subject.

If the literal translations are "I have 25 years" and "I have cold", then those don't sound like datives. If they were something like "There is 25 years to me" or "To me is 25 years", then that would be a dative construction. So the real question is, does Hebrew have a dative case, and does it use it for those constructions?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 20, 2019, 10:19:29 PM
They are definitely "I have", and phrased exactly the same way as "I have an apple". The sources I can find in English (the ones in Hebrew are definitely outside my vocabulary, as I have no idea to say "dative" in Hebrew, let alone any related words!) seem to imply Hebrew does not have a dative case.

http://www.lingvozone.com/Hebrew
Quote
Hebrew grammar is mostly analytical, expressing such forms as dative, ablative, and accusative using prepositional particles rather than grammatical cases.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 21, 2019, 08:01:03 AM
I wasn't really finding a lot of information on cases in Hebrew either, but it looks like it might not have them at all. If it does, it's most likely to have them on personal pronouns (like English and French), but this chart of personal pronouns (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hebrew_pronouns) doesn't list any variant case forms.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 21, 2019, 09:01:08 AM
I'm not quite grasping what pronouns have to do with the question, but I don't know of any pronouns in Hebrew other than those.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 21, 2019, 10:56:50 AM
I mean that some languages have case marking on all nouns and pronouns (and sometimes on articles and adjectives too), but some languages just mark case on pronouns, as in I vs. me vs. my. So for those things to be dative constructions, you'd have to have a dative pronoun in there. But if Hebrew doesn't have dative pronouns, then they can't be dative constructions.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 21, 2019, 01:15:41 PM
In Hebrew both "me" and "my" (and the equivalents for other persons) are almost always suffixes, not separate words. The article you linked has better examples than anything I can come up with.

But there are distinct ways to say I vs. me vs. my.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 21, 2019, 01:56:04 PM
Does it also have different forms for direct and indirect objects, or is there basically just a "me" (whether it's a suffix or a separate word) for both? For instance, I don't remember if you know any Yiddish, but some pronouns have distinct forms for direct and indirect objects, like "mikh" versus "mir".

By the way, I had no idea that Hebrew often used suffixes for personal pronouns. But then again, I don't really know a lot about Hebrew beyond a few things like verb-subject-object order and the fact that it has that weird triconsonantal root morphology.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 21, 2019, 10:33:07 PM
My knowledge of Yiddish is very limited, and includes essentially no grammar. I know "mir", but not "mikh", let alone what distinguishes the two.

But if you are asking whether there is a different word for "me" in the two phrases: "Give it to me" and "give me to him", then yes.

"To me" is li- (to) + -ee (me): lee. (Full phrase: Ten lee.)
"Me" in the second phrase is et (untranslatable preposition; see https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%AA#Hebrew) + -ee (me): oh-tee. (Full phrase: Ten oh-tee loh.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 22, 2019, 08:59:02 AM
And of course I don't actually know enough Yiddish to know how mir and mikh are used, but in German, mir is used for indirect objects (Gib mir das Buch 'give me the book'), while mich is used for direct objects (du hasst mich 'you hate me').

But since it looks like the Hebrew words are compounds of some sort of base form of the pronoun plus a preposition, I'm not sure those are technically cases. Cases are often semantically equivalent to some sort of preposition, and they probably evolved from them (well, technically from postpositions, since they attach at the end), but I think these would be considered something different. I'm not sure what the right term for them would be, though.

So it sounds like Hebrew probably doesn't have real dative constructions. Maybe there's some sort of umbrella term that would describe the constructions you listed, but again, I'm not sure what it would be.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 22, 2019, 07:37:42 PM
Ok, thanks. :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 22, 2019, 08:17:10 PM
No problem! And this discussion almost made me want to learn Hebrew, as if I don't already have enough going on in my life. :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 22, 2019, 10:35:38 PM
There are some online resources for that, should that desire crystallize. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 23, 2019, 08:35:45 AM
Don't tempt me, Rivka!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 23, 2019, 10:14:38 AM
Meanwhile, Netflix recently added Shtisel (https://www.netflix.com/title/81004164). I watched it just before my trip to Israel, and it helped wake up my dormant Hebrew. Well, maybe a little. ;)

It's also a great show.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 24, 2019, 11:46:12 AM
Science and Shit (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2019/01/24/science-and-shit/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 24, 2019, 08:19:42 PM
Interesting!

What about scat? In the animal droppings sense, not the go-away sense.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on January 25, 2019, 10:31:17 AM
It appears there's some disagreement about that one. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate says that it's perhaps from the Greek skat- as in scatalogical, and the OED and Etymonline simply say that that's the source. The American Heritage Dictionary says "origin unknown", and Wiktionary also says "origin uncertain", though it notes the M-W and OED etymologies. But it also notes that The Random House Dictionary says that the Greek origin seems unlikely, given the popular character of the word (that is, it's not exactly a scientific or technical term, and it only dates from about the 1950s). But Wiktionary says that it may be from a dialectal word scat meaning 'scatter, bespatter' or from an alteration of shit.

So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on January 25, 2019, 10:45:49 AM
Huh. Go figure.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 24, 2019, 12:00:38 PM
That's my name; please wear it out (http://www.arrantpedantry.com/2019/04/24/thats-my-name-please-wear-it-out/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 24, 2019, 01:06:49 PM
I didn't know John was derived from Yochanan, rather than Yonatan!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 24, 2019, 01:32:14 PM
Hooray for learning new things!

And by the way, I just copied the Hebrew from Wiktionary, so I can't vouch for it. It looks like it's at least going right-to-left, though.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on April 24, 2019, 03:21:30 PM
When I first came to know you, I remembered your spelling by recognizing how it corresponded to Yonaton. By now, the more popular spelling looks wrong to me, so I suppose you've ruined me for it a little.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 24, 2019, 03:47:09 PM
Success!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on April 24, 2019, 07:02:55 PM
And by the way, I just copied the Hebrew from Wiktionary, so I can't vouch for it.
Oh, it's right. (I would have mentioned if there were an issue. I know you'd want to know.)

By now, the more popular spelling looks wrong to me, so I suppose you've ruined me for it a little.
Yup, me too. We had a student a while back who spells it the other way, which delayed the process slightly (and meant I always had to check when writing to either you or to him). But once he graduated, it was -thon all the way. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on April 25, 2019, 08:54:54 AM
Oh, it's right. (I would have mentioned if there were an issue. I know you'd want to know.)

👍

By now, the more popular spelling looks wrong to me, so I suppose you've ruined me for it a little.
Yup, me too. We had a student a while back who spells it the other way, which delayed the process slightly (and meant I always had to check when writing to either you or to him). But once he graduated, it was -thon all the way. ;)

👍👍👍
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 03, 2019, 09:12:41 PM
The Style Guide Alignment Chart (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2019/09/03/the-style-guide-alignment-chart/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 04, 2019, 08:17:08 AM
 :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 04, 2019, 08:42:12 AM
Ah, APA Style. It was my bane in school.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 04, 2019, 09:04:12 AM
I love how many people are saying, "Yup, APA really is the worst."
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 04, 2019, 08:29:41 PM
Again with the Eats, Shoots, and Leaves hate.

*shakes head sadly*
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on September 04, 2019, 09:43:10 PM
I'm with Jonathon on that.  :D


And, wow, that article attracted a LOT of comments.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 05, 2019, 10:18:39 AM
And a lot of traffic too! I haven't gotten this many hits since my "12 Mistakes" post went viral.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 05, 2019, 10:40:17 AM
Well, of course. You're a NYT-quoted person now.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 09, 2019, 08:31:32 AM
I posted the chart on Twitter and got over a thousand retweets and almost three thousand likes. Then I posted it on my blog and got over a thousand Facebook shares and nearly twenty thousand pageviews. Then I posted it on a Slack channel at work and got crickets. Absolutely nothing.

I don't understand my coworkers sometimes.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 09, 2019, 08:32:23 AM
Wait, correction. It looks like one of our interns responded with 💯. Nothing from any of the editing staff, though.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Brinestone on September 09, 2019, 08:46:28 AM
Huh. Maybe they disagree but don't want to argue with a coworker? But you use Chicago there, right? Maybe they don't really get the jokes and are embarrassed to say so? But then I think they'd at least like it to hide that they don't get it.

Huh.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 09, 2019, 09:10:42 AM
Yeah, we mostly use Chicago with a little AP for things like number style (which doesn't really make sense to me because we could just use Chicago's alternate number rule, but whatever).

Maybe they just don't get the whole alignment chart meme? I don't know.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 09, 2019, 09:40:16 AM
No one I work with understands me, either. I just got used to that over the years.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 09, 2019, 12:23:30 PM
Maybe they just don't get the whole alignment chart meme?
This strikes me as fairly likely.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: sweet clementine on September 10, 2019, 07:41:20 AM
A couple of years ago I finally caved and learned how to play D&D. I now get all the D&D jokes out there (I had no idea there were so many, incidentally). But before that I still found alignment chart memes funny. It's pretty self explanatory, even if you don't fully understand the context.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: sweet clementine on September 10, 2019, 07:41:44 AM
what I'm getting at is shame on your coworkers. Shame. Shame. Shame.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 10, 2019, 08:53:07 AM
I don't play D&D either but have enjoyed a lot of alignment chart memes too.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 10, 2019, 09:09:49 AM
I have a new piece for Grammar Girl: "Verbing Nouns and Nouning Verbs (https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/verbing-nouns-and-nouning-verbs)".
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 10, 2019, 09:55:27 AM
That was a good read.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 10, 2019, 10:00:01 AM
Thanks! Though I'm disappointed with myself for not working in this Calvin & Hobbes strip (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25).
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 10, 2019, 12:51:07 PM
I don't play D&D either but have enjoyed a lot of alignment chart memes too.
Ditto. However, a few years back when they were relatively new (at least to me), I did have to educate myself to understand them.


That was a good read.
Agreed!

Though I'm disappointed with myself for not working in this Calvin & Hobbes strip (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1993/01/25).
That was definitely a missed opportunity, but perhaps might not have worked with the piece's overall tone.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 10, 2019, 01:02:04 PM
I was just reading an article that did this. It used "glassed" to mean "were able to see with our binoculars", which I figured out solely by context.

It's in the dictionary (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glass), but I don't think I have ever seen that usage before.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 10, 2019, 01:31:29 PM
I don't think I've ever seen that before either.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 12, 2019, 01:25:14 PM
One of my coworkers just said that she finally got around to reading my post and found it entertaining. So maybe the others just hadn't read it yet?
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 24, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
The "Only" Comma, pt. 1 (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2019/10/24/the-only-comma-pt-1/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 24, 2019, 02:46:00 PM
Interesting! I'm not sure I had even known of the rule before you mentioned it here in reference to the cartoon.

Also,
Quote
Even though my utterance has the form of a yes-or-no question, you’d only answer “Yes, I know what time it is” if you were trying to be a smart alec.
Or if you were on the autism spectrum. This sort of question is legitimately difficult for those who are. My son is both on the spectrum and a smart alec, so . . . . :P

(And I think you are missing a closing quotation mark at the end of the dog-whistle paragraph.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 25, 2019, 09:01:45 AM
Thanks, Rivka! As with so many things that editors do, I think we assume we're helping the reader, while our readers are completely oblivious.

The autism spectrum question actually crossed my mind, but it felt like too much of a sidetrack in what was already a long post.

(And thanks for catching the missing quotation mark.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 25, 2019, 10:14:53 AM
As with so many things that editors do, I think we assume we're helping the reader, while our readers are completely oblivious.
Yeah. You know I'm entirely sympathetic to that view, and in fact push for following various accepted rules/standards in both my jobs (and just in general). But if almost no laypeople know about a rule, it's hard to have its usage communicate anything to them.

The autism spectrum question actually crossed my mind, but it felt like too much of a sidetrack in what was already a long post.
That's fair.

(And thanks for catching the missing quotation mark.)
:)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Dobie on October 25, 2019, 11:22:52 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIyAUR87aVU&t=30m37s
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 25, 2019, 11:26:50 AM
I will admit that the language of lawyers often exists in its own world.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 27, 2019, 07:21:09 AM
Also,
Quote
Even though my utterance has the form of a yes-or-no question, you’d only answer “Yes, I know what time it is” if you were trying to be a smart alec.
Or if you were on the autism spectrum. This sort of question is legitimately difficult for those who are. My son is both on the spectrum and a smart alec, so . . . . :P

By the way, I changed it to "Even though my utterance has the form of a yes-or-no question, you’d probably only answer “Yes, I know what time it is” if you were trying to be a smart alec" just to leave wiggle room for things like that.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on October 27, 2019, 08:34:11 PM
 :)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 24, 2020, 01:15:03 PM
Umlauts, Diaereses, and the New Yorker (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2020/03/24/umlauts-diaereses-and-the-new-yorker/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 24, 2020, 05:50:26 PM
Quote
Nöw yöu knöw.
AAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhh! My eyes, my eyes!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 27, 2020, 09:11:10 AM
"Right, Wrong, and Relative (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2020/08/27/right-wrong-and-relative/)"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 27, 2020, 10:12:03 AM
Quote
Nobody hired us to preserve the language.
Oh. Hmm.

Well, can we? ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on August 27, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
I mean, you can hire me, but it won't actually preserve the language. :p
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on August 27, 2020, 11:49:02 AM
Darn!
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 22, 2021, 12:09:30 PM
My first new post in *cough* a little while: "What I Learned from Teaching Editing (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2021/03/22/what-i-learned-from-teaching-editing/)"
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on March 22, 2021, 11:36:10 PM
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on March 23, 2021, 10:11:42 AM
Thanks, Rivka. I have some non-language-related thoughts about teaching—especially teaching during a pandemic—but maybe I'll start a new thread for those.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 08, 2021, 12:31:05 PM
I Am Begging You to Learn How Dictionaries Work (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2021/11/08/i-am-begging-you-to-learn-how-dictionaries-work/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 09, 2021, 08:34:29 AM
My son told me the other day that he would like to say "Mark my words!" and then have someone named Mark hand him a dictionary, so that he could then say, "Thank you, Mark."

(Kind of like how whenever Picard said "Fire at will!" I was hoping Worf would shoot at Riker.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 09, 2021, 10:15:14 AM
I Am Begging You to Learn How Dictionaries Work (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2021/11/08/i-am-begging-you-to-learn-how-dictionaries-work/)
I have seen some articles arguing about whether certain words should be included based on whether they are ever used in published (for some definition of "published") work. That at least seems like a reasonable question, although the articles' merit varies. But going by whether one particular individual recognizes a word? What an odd and capricious metric.

And I was also among the kids who was told "go look it up". My kids try to get me to "just tell me!" when I say that, though. And if I respond with "Do I look like a dictionary?", you can guess their usual response. ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 09, 2021, 11:11:40 AM
I Am Begging You to Learn How Dictionaries Work (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2021/11/08/i-am-begging-you-to-learn-how-dictionaries-work/)
I have seen some articles arguing about whether certain words should be included based on whether they are ever used in published (for some definition of "published") work. That at least seems like a reasonable question, although the articles' merit varies. But going by whether one particular individual recognizes a word? What an odd and capricious metric.

Yeah, that's certainly a reasonable question, especially since the notion of what's considered "published" has become much fuzzier with the internet. Is an online news site published? What about a blog? What about a tweet?

Quote
And I was also among the kids who was told "go look it up". My kids try to get me to "just tell me!" when I say that, though. And if I respond with "Do I look like a dictionary?", you can guess their usual response. ;)

 ;D

Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on November 09, 2021, 12:50:58 PM
I Am Begging You to Learn How Dictionaries Work (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2021/11/08/i-am-begging-you-to-learn-how-dictionaries-work/)


Enjoyed the article. And you're right that the words she didn't know have nothing to do with her age. For the record, the only word you mentioned that I'm not familiar with is teraflop.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 09, 2021, 09:33:15 PM
For the record, the only word you mentioned that I'm not familiar with is teraflop.
Interesting. It's the only one of them I hear regularly, although I had heard of at least a couple of the others.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 10, 2021, 08:16:39 AM
For me, the most valuable thing about the dictionary is that it is full of words that I don't know.  I don't really need one that only has words that I already know.  There would be no point, unless I was just using it as a low-tech spellchecker.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on November 10, 2021, 10:15:36 AM
You could also use it to win arguments with people who think they know what a word means but are wrong.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on November 10, 2021, 10:49:30 AM
I've never done that.  :whistling:
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on November 10, 2021, 11:12:24 AM
You could also use it to win arguments with people who think they know what a word means but are wrong.
Or at least move the argument to a new level, when you debate the meaning of the meaning (or have dueling dictionaries). ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on November 10, 2021, 11:15:06 AM
Yes, indeed. I forgot that option.  :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on November 10, 2021, 03:36:26 PM
I suppose I could use it to win at Scrabble.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Keith on December 07, 2021, 03:28:45 PM
It might be nice to have one that only had words I already knew. Because I seem to forget the words I already know constantly, and I could find them faster if they weren't cluttered up with a bunch of words I've never known.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on December 07, 2021, 04:50:44 PM
 :D

(To be clear: I'm laughing because that is so true. For me too, that is.)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 20, 2022, 11:50:17 AM
I'm doing a survey about a car game involving Volkswagen Beetles. Please take this short survey (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfNpHSlpeGwm1OBDOR1N2e9E7dPTEPO0dFP9crvU8DwhF8i9g/viewform) (and feel free to share it with others), and I'll blog about the results in a week or so.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 20, 2022, 12:38:37 PM
I voted. But maybe I shouldn't have. I have mostly heard about it in books and online, and while I selected one option (the one I think I have heard the most), pretty sure I have heard it called all those things.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on October 12, 2022, 11:40:53 AM
The results of my Beetle car game survey are finally up! (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2022/10/11/the-volkswagen-beetle-car-game/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 18, 2024, 09:15:11 AM
How to Send a Style Guide Discussion Straight to Hell (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2024/06/18/how-to-send-a-style-guide-discussion-straight-to-hell/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 18, 2024, 11:47:32 AM
Been having some fractious discussions at work? ;)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on June 18, 2024, 12:18:11 PM
This actually happened at my last job (so at least four years ago now, since it was in the pre-pandemic days). I started drafting this a few years ago, but I abandoned it because I didn't want to get in trouble if my boss saw it. But I haven't worked at that job in almost two and a half years now, so I finally pulled it out of my drafts, finished it up, and posted it.

But yeah, we had one especially fractious discussion that inspired this post (though many other discussions were at least a little frustrating or contentious). Many of the lines are direct or near-direct quotes. And I'm probably safe pointing out here that the coworker in question was literally named Karen.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Ela on June 18, 2024, 03:47:19 PM
Ha, I had the same questions as rivka.  :D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on June 18, 2024, 03:57:34 PM
This actually happened at my last job
Ah, that makes sense.

Many of the lines are direct or near-direct quotes.
I had a feeling. ;)

And I'm probably safe pointing out here that the coworker in question was literally named Karen.
:D
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Jonathon on September 23, 2024, 12:27:38 PM
The New Chicago’s Here! The New Chicago’s Here!
 (https://www.arrantpedantry.com/2024/09/23/the-new-chicagos-here-the-new-chicagos-here/)
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: Tante Shvester on September 23, 2024, 01:02:50 PM
Jeepers.  But I really like semicolons.
Title: Re: New column-type thingy
Post by: rivka on September 23, 2024, 05:07:50 PM
Even in fictional dialogue?