New column-type thingy

[Jonathon]

Let me know if you come up with something.

[rivka]

The holiness of righteous justice!

[pooka]

My prediction:  Someday Lego will be old enough to ask you why you didn't correct him on dice.  Someday a kid is going to tell him he's wrong, and he's going to come and ask about it.  The other way is if he picks up you saying it.  I guess that's how kids are supposed to learn English. 

So the plural of game die is different from the plural of tooling and machinery die?

[Jonathon]

Yup. The two senses split apart, with the tooling die evolving into the regular voiced s ending and the game die ending up with its current weirdness.

[BlackBlade]

I'll continue using singular die, and plural dice, while correcting others' usage. If I do it enough, and enough people listen, I'll be right.

[Jonathon]

There's only half a billion English speakers. How long could it possibly take?

[BlackBlade]

There's only half a billion English speakers. How long could it possibly take?

I could speed things up if I enlist American and British English teachers in my cause. I'll tell them ignoramuses disagree with me, and they can be snobby and dismissive if they do it my way. I can't lose!

[Marianne Dashwood]

Actually, English teachers have minimal control over the way people speak.

(or did I just ruin the funny with facts?)

[Porter]

They have a fair amount of control over how people write, and what people think of as "correct" English.  And for those who want to speak "correctly" for whatever reason, that control, IMO, rises above the level of "minimal".

[BlackBlade]

Actually, English teachers have minimal control over the way people speak.

(or did I just ruin the funny with facts?)

What Porter said.

[pooka]

But no one writes essays about a die.

[Jonathon]

English teachers have zero control over how people speak. They do have some not-minimal influence over how they write, though, at least in school, and for some people it's a very deep and lasting influence.

[pooka]

I think my son has more Mid Atlantic markers in his speech due to living there from the ages of 5-8.  He says [sir^p], for instance, while my daughters say /s3r^p/.  Oh, Hekka just said /sir^p/.

I should really learn how to type in IPA better. 

[BlackBlade]

English teachers have zero control over how people speak. They do have some not-minimal influence over how they write, though, at least in school, and for some people it's a very deep and lasting influence.

But does writing have such a distant relevance to speech? The words we use in writing one would think would travel into our common speech, that's certainly true for me. When reading aloud, teachers correct our pronunciation, and it's common for students to read a text that differs from the rules they use and to ask about it.

I'll grant that's not nearly as huge an influence as just hearing parents speak, or actively trying to fit in with how your community speaks the language.

[Jonathon]

New Grammar Day post: "Rules, Evidence, and Grammar."

Taylor: It's late and I'm tired, but I'll try to respond sometime tomorrow.

[rivka]

Of course Data is singular. He's unique.

[Porter]

English teachers have zero control over how people speak.

English teachers had an effect on how I grew up speaking.

[Tante Shvester]

A couple of months ago, Geoffrey Pullum talked made the argument in this post on Lingua Franca that it’s impossible to talk about what’s right or wrong in language without considering the evidence.

I think the (bolding mine) "talked" isn't supposed to be there.  Not to nitpick.  Just thought you would want to know.

[Jonathon]

Thanks for catching that.

[Jonathon]

But does writing have such a distant relevance to speech? The words we use in writing one would think would travel into our common speech, that's certainly true for me. When reading aloud, teachers correct our pronunciation, and it's common for students to read a text that differs from the rules they use and to ask about it.

I'll grant that's not nearly as huge an influence as just hearing parents speak, or actively trying to fit in with how your community speaks the language.

Writing is a very different animal from speaking. Sure, there's a lot of overlap, but consider the fact that an awful lot of people hardly ever write anything and probably don't read much either. Plus, there's the fact that we all leave school and don't have teachers hovering over our shoulders all the time correcting us.

[Jonathon]

English teachers have zero control over how people speak.

English teachers had an effect on how I grew up speaking.

Effect, sure. "Control" is probably too strong a word, though.

[Porter]

Agreed.  But then, so is "zero".  If you can affect something, your control of it is non-zero.

[Jonathon]

I'm not sure I agree with that, but now we're just quibbling. I think we can agree that teachers do have some influence over how people write, and I think they have somewhat less influence over how people speak, especially once those people are out of school.

[Marianne Dashwood]

All you have to do is live in a multilingual environment, especially one with a dominant official language as the medium of instruction but not the common language of the people, to see how little effect teachers have on how their students speak. Can the teachers affect how the students will speak during the presentation they have to give for class? Sure. But as soon as the bell rings they're back to the way they always speak.

[BlackBlade]

When I was in Qing Hua University almost two years ago, my teachers would constantly interrupt my pronunciation, and my awkward diction. My accent changed, as did the words I used in conducting my daily affairs after just a few weeks of influence. They could still pick out my Taiwanese accent, but I definitely started sounding more local by the time I left.