Author Topic: Dear Expert (Read 165436 times)

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #75 on:** July 20, 2010, 03:47:32 PM »

Make hot dish.

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #76 on:** July 20, 2010, 05:14:04 PM »

Emergency question!

If anyone can answer this by 11:00 my time (9:00pm in US Mountain time) it will be of fantastic help.

The students just took a test where the correct answer is an inverted form of the subjunctive (I don't even know if I'm identifying that correctly) and I need to explain why that answer was correct.

The sentence was "The business can help anyone - ________ the manager of a small company or a dentist working in a private practice." The choices include "he is," "if he," and something else, and the correct answer, "be he."

How on earth do I explain why we use that? I understand why we'd use the subjunctive there, but what's the rationale behind inversion like that? I've only really ever heard it used often in "be that as it may," as well as similar constructions as the question, "be he," "be it," etc.

fugu13 · « **Reply #77 on:** July 20, 2010, 05:32:31 PM »

The subjunctive indicates the hypothetical/possible (note: I know you know this, it just leads into the answer); the first doesn't, so we don't use that, and the second lacks a verb, so we don't use that. The inversion is because it flows better, and because the main alternative ("if he be") would suggest a constraint rather than an emphasis, as would leaving the subjunctive out entirely.

Jonathon · « **Reply #78 on:** July 20, 2010, 07:10:37 PM »

I'm not really sure how to give a why beyond "that's just the way it is." The subjunctive in English only occurs in subordinate clauses or in main clauses with the subject and auxiliary inverted. I'm guessing it's a relic from Old English times when word order wasn't as fixed and topicalization was more abundant.

I'd guess you've also heard constructions like "Had I known . . ." and so forth.

fugu13 · « **Reply #79 on:** July 20, 2010, 08:03:26 PM »

Ah, I misunderstood the question, I think. I agree with Jonathon's "because".

More seriously, it emphasizes the verb, which is especially important in subjunctive. And it sounds cooler (a very important aspect of linguistic development, especially when the linguistic developers are dramatic people).

pooka · « **Reply #80 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:03:09 PM »

Quote from: Annie Subjunctive on July 20, 2010, 05:14:04 PM

Emergency question!

If anyone can answer this by 11:00 my time (9:00pm in US Mountain time) it will be of fantastic help.

The students just took a test where the correct answer is an inverted form of the subjunctive (I don't even know if I'm identifying that correctly) and I need to explain why that answer was correct.

The sentence was "The business can help anyone - ________ the manager of a small company or a dentist working in a private practice." The choices include "he is," "if he," and something else, and the correct answer, "be he."

How on earth do I explain why we use that? I understand why we'd use the subjunctive there, but what's the rationale behind inversion like that? I've only really ever heard it used often in "be that as it may," as well as similar constructions as the question, "be he," "be it," etc.

It's shorter than Whether he be.

And we use it because we just do. I thought you guys were here to learn English, so just do it.

That's why I'm not in Asia teaching English.

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #81 on:** July 20, 2010, 09:18:52 PM »

It was another teacher who asked me this, and I started out with "maybe just explain to them that it's a usage they might hear." I then read your (very helpful) replies, dug into it, wrote a little synopsis for her, and gave it to her before class. She then asked another of the teachers how he would teach it (he's the resident grammarian) and he told her - "I'd tell them it was an older usage of English and not to worry about it."

Now if we could only talk to the developers of the national exams...

fugu13 · « **Reply #82 on:** July 20, 2010, 10:07:32 PM »

It sounds nearly as bad as Japan, where those preparing for university entrance exams (or even high school ones!) must memorize insane points of English grammar (frequently incorrect ones, at that).

Scott R · « **Reply #83 on:** July 21, 2010, 05:03:26 AM »

Quote

speaking with one's hands is a common Jewish (and bi-coastal) trait; not so much among American Midwesterners. Which is why it looks normal to us, and not to Scott.

I'm Southern.

I don't mind gesturing in real life, but I find it distracting in videos.

rivka · « **Reply #84 on:** July 21, 2010, 05:57:35 AM »

The Southerners I know don't seem to speak much with their hands either.

Scott R · « **Reply #85 on:** July 21, 2010, 06:05:03 AM »

That's fine. I just wanted to clear up the misconception that I'm a mid-westerner.

Tante Shvester · « **Reply #86 on:** July 21, 2010, 09:41:51 AM »

What kind of Southern are you? My husband was born and raised in Georgia, and he never talks with his hands. Then again, he is paralyzed from the hair down.

BlackBlade · « **Reply #87 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:07:14 PM »

Oh my goodness, I'm afraid to laugh, and get yet another strike in heaven's logbook.

Scott R · « **Reply #88 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:23:22 PM »

Quote

What kind of Southern are you?

Texan and Virginian. I'm not sure I can legitimately call myself Texan-- I don't have any desire to go back-- but I've lived in the Old Dominion for 20 years now anyway. It's home.

Tante Shvester · « **Reply #89 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:27:27 PM »

You're from Virginia. Oh dear. I had no idea. I wish I had paid attention when my mother warned me about people from Virginia.

Scott R · « **Reply #90 on:** July 21, 2010, 04:36:21 PM »

Yep. You'd never be in this predicament if only you had listened to her.

The Genuine · « **Reply #91 on:** July 21, 2010, 09:58:36 PM »

Quote from: rivka on July 21, 2010, 05:57:35 AM

The Southerners I know don't seem to speak much with their hands either.

There's a retort in there about the Rebellion; I just haven't found it yet.

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #92 on:** July 21, 2010, 10:31:36 PM »

They speak with their shotguns!

pooka · « **Reply #93 on:** July 23, 2010, 08:54:59 AM »

I grew up mostly in Virginia, but since I was techically born in Maryland I always lorded it over my siblings that I was on the winning side of the Civil War.

But all my children have been born in Utah and I've lived here pretty much half my life, so I suppose I am a Utahn. I was thinking the other day of how silly people are who complain about being trapped in Utah. It was someone's login at the deseret news.

BlackBlade · « **Reply #94 on:** August 26, 2010, 12:35:00 PM »

Dear Expert,

I was once told in church that the word "abomination" originally meant "a stink" or that the word described something as having an abhorrent smell, rather than the current usage where something is corrupted or a juxtaposition of two things that ought not to be joined.

I can't find anything in the etymology though that discusses smell as factoring into it. I'd hate to believe in an abominable definition.

Help!
BB

Jonathon · « **Reply #95 on:** August 26, 2010, 12:50:03 PM »

According to the OED, abominate means "to avert an omen" and came to mean "to loathe, abhor, detest". There's nothing in there about stink.

Porter · « **Reply #96 on:** August 27, 2010, 11:08:43 AM »

Quote from: Annie Subjunctive on July 20, 2010, 03:26:25 AM

I like this expert's answer to how to pluralize octopus. It gives me hope for the dear-to-my-heart syllabuses.

I hate that they make you watch the video to get the the answer.

pooka · « **Reply #97 on:** August 28, 2010, 06:31:59 AM »

I don't ever like being forced to watch a video in order to get what someone is saying or even what is amusing. Though I'm usually willing to if it is grammar or linguistics related. I know a lot of people think it's the best part of the internet, but it just doesn't draw me in. Kind of like XKCD. I think it may have to do with the amateurishness of it. Like, I didn't work too hard on this, so if it sucks, you shouldn't be disappointed.

Not all videos are amateurish. If there were a thread of videos of highly rehearsed performance art like the dudes on treadmills, I would probably watch those, or best of science principle illustration animations.

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #98 on:** September 05, 2010, 09:33:38 PM »

I promised a friend of mind I'd look up the etymology of the verb "bear" for her, and I'm finding the meanings related to carrying, bringing forth, to give birth to. Is this the same word we use when we talk about bearing testimony in churchspeak? The only other use like that I can think of is bearing witness. Is that a phrase in normal English? And if so, why do we use the word "bear"? Is it implying the bringing forth of the ideas we're speaking?

Jonathon · « **Reply #99 on:** September 05, 2010, 10:32:20 PM »

Yes, it's normal English and not just churchspeak. I think you're right on about bringing forth ideas. And apparently it's a fairly old metaphorical use of the verb bear, going back to at least 1300. And if you're interested in the further etymology, it's related to the Latin ferre and Greek pherein, making it related to a whole host of words like infer and metaphor.