GalacticCactus Forum

Author Topic: New column-type thingy  (Read 112465 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2005, 12:19:50 PM »
Yes, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to be taken directly from that book, but rather plagiarized. I was just providing it as an alternative link for those that couldn't get to the first one.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2005, 12:40:46 PM »
Now, for contrast, let's look at the Indo-European words for five that I mentioned.

First of all, the words all have the exact same meaning, so we don't have to worry about that. Secondly, we already have a good idea that some of the words within families are related (five and fünf, pãch and panj—even some of the others look somewhat similar).

But once you have the idea that they may be connected, you have to dig into the history and prove how. Lots of those words start with a p (and sometimes end with p), but the Germanic words have f. A comparison of Germanic and other Indo-European words shows that there's a sound correspondence: father and pater, fish and pisces, for and por, and so on. So we know that when other languages have p, Germanic has f.

But then there's the Romance words beginning with an s or ch sound. However, we know from records that the Latin was quinque. It seems that the original p must have become a qu from the influence of the second qu and probably the influence of the preceeding number, quattuor. (Actually, the change from p to qu or k isn't unheard of, and neither is the opposite, qu to p, but I'll get to that in a minute.)

So at some point the Latin quinque must have lost the first u, becoming *kinque. In Vulgate Latin, /ki/ became either /si/ or /chi/, so that explains the Romance languages today.

Now back to the problem of kw and p. The original Indo-European sound wasn't really like the qu sound today. It was more like a k pronounced with your lips close together, and in some languages, it changed to just being pronounced with the lips (p).

This happened in all the Brythonic languages (like Welsh) some dead Italic languages (cousins of Latin that are long dead), and in proto-Germanic only when kw was followed by e. So for those languages, the original word becomes pempe. Then the Germanic p > f rules applies and we get femf and so on.

In the Gaelic languages (the other half of the Celtic branch), kw became simply k, and all ps became k, too. This explains the Scottish cóig.

In some other languages, kw became t. I don't understand this sound change as well, but I believe it only occurred when followed by e, much like the Germanic change. So Greek and Russian get a t instead of a q at the end.

The Indo-Iranian changes are simple. Much like the Romance languages described earlier, the w drops out, and then ke becomes che. In some languages, ch then became j (this is simple voicing of the consonant).

A couple common changes that run through most of these words is the loss of the final vowel (nothing surprising—look at all the silent final vowels in English and French) and the disappearance of the n. Nasal consonants have a tendency to disappear over time. First the preceding vowel becomes nasalized (and the actual consonant disappears), and then the vowel denasalizes. Two of these examples (cinq and pãch) are currently in the nasalized vowel stage.

So that, in a nutshell, is what a decent etymological analysis looks like. See the difference? You start with a wide selection of words and then trace them back step by step until you arrive at the common ancestor. There's no picking and choosing words to support your hypothesis while ignoring others that don't. There are no huge leaps when it comes to semantic shifts or sound shifts. Even the weird changes involving kw have shown up in other language families, so there's corroborating evidence. Browsing through a dictionary for 30 seconds disproves that book's assertions, whereas this analysis is watertight.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Teshi

  • Veteran Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 517
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2005, 12:43:20 PM »
:) Cool.

Offline Ela

  • Got Limes?
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,065
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2005, 10:00:48 PM »
That was more interesting than I expected it to be.  :P  :)  


     "The internet is for porn"   

                                 


Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2005, 01:44:24 PM »
Thanks . . . I think. :unsure:  
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Ela

  • Got Limes?
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,065
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2005, 01:55:53 PM »
:lol:  


     "The internet is for porn"   

                                 


Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #31 on: December 15, 2005, 11:28:00 AM »
*bump*

I finally got around to writing a new one.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2006, 04:56:45 PM »
*bump again*

Do my self-esteem a favor and go read it!


Note: To any people who may have recently used the word "defenestrate" on other forums, I assure that I wrote this before I saw that conversation. This wasn't intended to make fun of anyone.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Porter

  • ruining funny with facts
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,333
  • long time lurker, first time poster
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2006, 05:22:29 PM »
The link doesn't work for me.
Tomorrow Poster
Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2006, 05:35:57 PM »
I don't know why it wouldn't.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Porter

  • ruining funny with facts
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,333
  • long time lurker, first time poster
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2006, 05:42:58 PM »
Huh.  It's working now.

<_<
Tomorrow Poster
Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline rivka

  • Linguistic Anarchist
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,155
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2006, 06:10:28 AM »
:P  
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
-Aaron Kunin

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2006, 10:35:15 AM »
It's been several months, but I finally got around to writing a new article on my English blog.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline pooka

  • hover bear
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,877
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2006, 04:01:43 AM »
I made a very spare comment on the blog; there was already a truckload of comments.  I guess after reading the other comments I wanted to metion the use of "Was [verb]-ing" instead of "[verb]-ed" in third person past narratives.  Somehow the discussion on "that" brought it up, just in terms of both being grammatical, but the more economical phrasing being preferred by some.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his work."  Comte de Saint-Simon

Offline rivka

  • Linguistic Anarchist
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,155
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2006, 09:44:08 AM »
That "alright" was there just for me, wasn't it.

 :P  
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
-Aaron Kunin

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2006, 09:53:16 AM »
Not just for you. :)
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Porter

  • ruining funny with facts
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,333
  • long time lurker, first time poster
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2006, 09:55:20 AM »
I noticed it too. :)
Tomorrow Poster
Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2007, 09:35:20 PM »
If anyone's interested in the story of how I wrote to the staff of The Chicago Manual of Style about a horrible inaccuracy and received an even more horribly incompetent response, you can read it here.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 09:36:06 PM by Jon Boy »
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2007, 08:50:15 PM »
*bump*

Is anyone interested in these? Because I wrote an inflammatory new post about prescriptivism the other day, and not a single soul responded to tell me that just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's right. :(
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline rivka

  • Linguistic Anarchist
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,155
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2007, 08:55:28 PM »
I am, but I'm terrible about checking blogs, regardless of how much I like them.

I like the post. I disagree with you on fewer and less, though.

Oh, and just because everyone does it doesn't mean it's right! And gerroff my lawn!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 08:56:00 PM by rivka »
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
-Aaron Kunin

Offline Tante Shvester

  • Souper Member
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9,868
    • View Profile
    • About Tante
New column-type thingy
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2007, 06:33:57 AM »
Although I might object to the "nazi" thing, I thought you were right on.  Forgive me for ignoring; I wasn't aware that I ought to be reading your blog.
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
Sweet! Law of Moses loopholes! -- Anneke
I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline Porter

  • ruining funny with facts
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,333
  • long time lurker, first time poster
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2007, 07:21:16 AM »
Quote
I am, but I'm terrible about checking blogs, regardless of how much I like them.
ditto
Tomorrow Poster
Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2007, 07:30:52 AM »
Quote
Although I might object to the "nazi" thing, I thought you were right on.  Forgive me for ignoring; I wasn't aware that I ought to be reading your blog.
But of course you should be reading my blog!

I will admit that I still have somewhat mixed feelings about the term "grammar nazi." On the one hand, it does indeed seem offensive to associate a bunch of grammatical fussbudgets with a political party that committed genocide and started a huge, bloody war. But on the other hand, it's a term that many of those fussbudgets use to describe themselves, and it seems so far removed from the original sense that they're not even the same word, even though they look alike and are related. But maybe I would feel a lot less ambivalent about it if I were Jewish.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 07:33:46 AM by Jon Boy »
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,680
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
New column-type thingy
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2007, 07:33:33 AM »
Quote
I am, but I'm terrible about checking blogs, regardless of how much I like them.
Have you ever tried a feed reader like Google Reader? I love it. But then again, I've got about two dozen blogs, columns, and web comics in it, so I check it daily. If you're using it to just keep up on one or two things, you'll probably have trouble remembering to check Google Reader just like you had trouble remembering to check the blogs.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline rivka

  • Linguistic Anarchist
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,155
    • View Profile
New column-type thingy
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2007, 08:23:29 AM »
I avoid feed readers deliberately. This way, when I don't have time I don't know what I'm missing.

And every few weeks I get bored late at night, or just feel the need to catch up, and check on everyone's lj/blogspot/blgger/etc. Your blog and Ruth's are on that list -- both your blogs, actually.
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
-Aaron Kunin