Author Topic: The random etymology of the day (Read 222409 times)

Primal Curve · « **Reply #175 on:** March 23, 2006, 09:08:52 AM »

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Oh, the worst WORST example of that is forming "mentee" from "mentor".

It may not be gramatically correct, but it certainly helps with unsightly bad breath.

Jonathon · « **Reply #176 on:** March 23, 2006, 09:12:11 AM »

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By the way, Jon Boy, I've been emailing my parents excerpts from this thread. My mom described your discussion of "can" and "may" as being just what she needed to get her out of the bad mood she'd been in (yes, I come from a family of geeks).

Glad to be of service.

Porter · « **Reply #177 on:** March 23, 2006, 09:18:10 AM »

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I come from a family of geeks

I am happy for you.

Noemon · « **Reply #178 on:** March 24, 2006, 07:18:34 AM »

Me too!

pooka · « **Reply #179 on:** March 27, 2006, 02:31:19 PM »

Did you do Noggin already? I guess there is a kid's channel on cable called Noggin.

Jonathon · « **Reply #180 on:** May 05, 2006, 11:32:55 AM »

Noggin is of unknown origin, but it is possibly related to nog, a type of alcoholic drink (as in eggnog). Noggin originally meant "drinking vessel" and then later meant "bucket or pail." From there it might have come to mean "head." It's also possible that noggin meaning "head" is unrelated to the other noggin.

pooka · « **Reply #181 on:** May 09, 2006, 08:57:49 AM »

I think that makes two that didn't have an official origin. What was the one Rivka gave me a bit of grief over assuming it was Yiddish?

Jonathon · « **Reply #182 on:** June 15, 2006, 12:28:23 PM »

I really should resurrect this thread. Any requests?

Noemon · « **Reply #183 on:** June 15, 2006, 01:12:08 PM »

I'd be interested in hearing about "to". If that's too brief for a topic, doing its homophones as well might round it out.

Jonathon · « **Reply #184 on:** June 15, 2006, 03:41:14 PM »

Well, I just learned something interesting. To and too actually come from the same root. They trace back to the Proto-Indo-European word *do meaning, well, "to" or "toward." It shows up in Latin, Old Church Slavonic, Greek, Old Irish, and Lithuanian, though I don't recognize any of the various forms.

To traces back to the prepositional form of the word, which was unstressed and thus often had a short vowel. Too comes from the adverbial form, and since it was always stressed, the vowel was always long. In Middle English, long vowels were often written with doubled vowel characters, so too received its second o.

(Note: When to was stressed, it still had a long vowel, so it still shifted from /o/ to /u/ in the Great Vowel Shift. If it had always been pronounced with a short vowel, then to and too would not rhyme today.)

I'll tackle two when I get home from work.

Porter · « **Reply #185 on:** June 15, 2006, 03:45:57 PM »

How does it show up in Latin?

Jonathon · « **Reply #186 on:** June 15, 2006, 04:00:04 PM »

The only example the OED gives is a suffix -do, but it doesn't say anything about how it was used.

Jonathon · « **Reply #187 on:** June 15, 2006, 08:27:13 PM »

As you might know, two comes from a root that is common to all Indo-European languages (duwo, to be specific). It appeared as duo in Greek and Latin, dwau in Sanskrit, and duva in Old Church Slavonic.

In Old English the word was twa, and it was pronounced as it was spelled. Over time the vowel shifted upwards until it finally reached /u/ after the Great Vowel Shift. The /w/ sound then assimilated with the vowel and disappeared, leaving the word pronounced just like to or too. In related words with a different vowel (twin, twain, between, twelve) the /w/ has remained.

The exact same process of /w/-assimilation happened with who (which was hwa in Old English). I'm pretty sure I've done that one already, though.

pooka · « **Reply #188 on:** June 16, 2006, 04:26:59 AM »

So they're saying Latin used a preposition as a suffix? I guess anything is possible, but I'd like to hear a specimen. I mean, they used a lot of suffixes, but they tended to be morphological. I guess they could mean it's somehow adverbial, but I don't have any immediate recollection of such. There is the verb do/dare/datus which means to give [to], after which the dative case was named.

Noemon · « **Reply #189 on:** June 16, 2006, 06:42:39 AM »

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In Old English the word was twa, and it was pronounced as it was spelled. Over time the vowel shifted upwards until it finally reached /u/ after the Great Vowel Shift. The /w/ sound then assimilated with the vowel and disappeared, leaving the word pronounced just like to or too. In related words with a different vowel (twin, twain, between, twelve) the /w/ has remained.

Fascinating, Jon Boy! Two things: first, could you talk a little bit about how consonants assimilate with vowels? I understand what you mean by it from context, I think, but if there's anything to share about it I'd be interested in hearing it. Second, can you talk a little bit about the etymology of "twelve"? the "tw-" I get now (and am fascinated by), but what about the "-elve"/?

Jonathon · « **Reply #190 on:** June 16, 2006, 08:53:03 AM »

There are two different types of assimilate: partial and total. The Latinate prefix in- is an example of both. In a word like impossible, the /n/ in the prefix has partially assimilated by taking on the place of articulation of the following /p/. In words like irrational or illogical, the /n/ has totally assimilated.

The sound /w/ is essentially a semivowel version of the vowel /u/. The semivowel /w/ is pronounced with rounded lips and with the body of the tongue raised towards the soft palate, but it involves motion of both the lips and the tongue, which is what makes it a semivowel.

The sound /u/ is also pronounced with rounded lips and with the body of the tongue raised towards the soft palate, but it involves no motion of the lips or tongue.

So in the case of who and two, the vowel started as a low back vowel and then shifted up to a mid-low back vowel in early Middle English. The influence of the /w/, with its articulation like a high back vowel, continued to pull the vowel higher to /o/ and then finally to /u/.

But then you had two very similar sounds adjacent to each other, one of which was in an initial consonant cluster, so the force of assimilation (aided by the force of cluster reduction), made the /w/ disappear.

Eleven and twelve are apparently rather anomalous, with somewhat uncertain origins. I think I'll save those (and maybe some other Indo-European numbers) for tomorrow.

Porter · « **Reply #191 on:** June 16, 2006, 08:55:23 AM »

my head a-splode

Jonathon · « **Reply #192 on:** June 16, 2006, 09:05:34 AM »

Success!

Porter · « **Reply #193 on:** June 16, 2006, 09:12:58 AM »

Mr. Anderson · « **Reply #194 on:** June 17, 2006, 06:22:41 PM »

Someone told me "avacado" and "guacamole" have an interesting root. Get to work, Jon Boy.

Noemon · « **Reply #195 on:** June 19, 2006, 12:22:55 PM »

::eagerly awaits the entry on "eleven" and "twelve"::

Jonathon · « **Reply #196 on:** June 19, 2006, 01:01:16 PM »

Eleven and twelve appear to be numerals (ain and twa) suffixed with a root related to the word "leave" (-lif). This would give them the meanings of "one left" and "two left" (over ten, that is). Outside of the Germanic languages, the only analogous formations come from Lithuanian, which uses -lika as the suffix for the numbers 11 through 19. This makes it a little difficult to say for certain just what the suffixes mean, but the phonology and semantics match up, so it seems like a safe bet.

Jonathon · « **Reply #197 on:** June 20, 2006, 11:53:45 AM »

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Someone told me "avacado" and "guacamole" have an interesting root. Get to work, Jon Boy.

Avocado and guacamole both trace back to the Nahuatl word ahuacatl, which means, of course "avocado." Guacamole comes from ahuaca-molli, which means "avocado sauce."

Avocado was originally aguacate in Spanish, but it was altered by folk etymology to look like avocado, which means "lawyer." I guess they consider lawyers to be greasy and green, or something like that.

pooka · « **Reply #198 on:** June 20, 2006, 12:09:11 PM »

Avocados remind me of that green lady in the original Star Trek pilot.

Noemon · « **Reply #199 on:** June 20, 2006, 12:47:45 PM »

Fascinating as always, Jon Boy.