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Offline Brinestone

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #225 on: June 23, 2006, 08:07:10 AM »
They are all verbs in their uninflected form in my post.

Theoretically, any of these four is acceptable:

1) I wake at 7:00 a.m. each day.

2) I waken at 7:00 a.m. each day.

3) I awake at 7:00 a.m. each day.

4) I awaken at 7:00 a.m. each day.

Personally, I only use options 1 and 4 (along with #1's cousin, wake up). Option 3 appears in the Bible: "Awake and shine forth!" Option 2 sounds okay to me, but I just don't use it.

What I meant by strong and weak is that wake and awake form the past tense and past participle by changing the stem: wake, woke, woken and awake, awoke, awoken. They are "strong" verbs (this is the German term for the phenomenon; I'm not sure if it's the same in English). On the other hand, waken and awaken form the past tense and past participle by simply adding -ed, which means they are "weak" verbs: waken, wakened, wakened and awaken, awakened, awakened. I'm guessing you're right about why, though. If they were originally participles for wake and awake, they probably gained their own past and participial forms the "easy" way.
 
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Offline Jonathon

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #226 on: June 23, 2006, 08:18:56 AM »
Strong = irregular
Weak = regular

These are the terms generally used by linguists studying Germanic languages. I think they like to avoid the regular/irregular distinction because most "irregular" verbs are just regular in different ways.


The wake/awake/waken/awaken thing is going to take some time since it's such a giant mess.
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Offline Noemon

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #227 on: June 23, 2006, 10:51:34 AM »
When you have a chance, Jon Boy, could you talk about the etymology of the word "tattoo"?  Does the term as a name for pattern inked onto skin using a needle come from the fact that the needle beats a tattoo, as in a continuous drumming, on the skin of the person getting it?  
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #228 on: June 23, 2006, 10:56:07 AM »
IIRC, that word and its polynesian originas were talked about in Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 10:56:57 AM by mr_porteiro_head »
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Offline Jonathon

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #229 on: June 23, 2006, 11:09:41 AM »
The two tattoos have different origins. The mark-on-the-skin type comes from Polynesian nouns of the same meaning, while the drumbeat or signal sense comes from the Dutch taptoe, meaning "tap shut." Apparently it was a signal for soldiers to leave the taverns and return to quarters.
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Offline Noemon

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #230 on: June 23, 2006, 12:53:25 PM »
Interesting!  Thanks!  One should always resist the temptation toward folk-etymology.
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Offline pooka

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #231 on: June 29, 2006, 12:26:13 PM »
We were singing "You are my sunshine" and in the 2nd verse we always sing
"When I had woken
I was mistaken".

I don't know why we don't sing
"When I had waken."

I think I used to but my husband makes fun of my liberal participle formation rubrik.  I use words like "boughten" and "dranken".  

In Arabic, a weak verb means it only has two consonant roots rather than three, so a bonus consonant is put in.  Usually it is one of the semi-vowel liquids (W, Y, or ?) but sometimes they double one of the two existing consonants.  
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #232 on: June 30, 2006, 10:32:52 AM »
So here's what I've found out so far about our little quartet of "wake" words:
  • The -n is an inchoative suffix, meaning it means something like "to become x" or "to begin to x," where x is the stem.
  • The a- is a worn-down form of the prefix on-. The only analogous formation I could find is ashame, and I'm not clear on the meaning of the prefix here.
  • In Middle English, the four forms became fairly conflated in sense, leaving a lot of overlap in meaning.
  • Wake traces back to the Proto-Indo-European root that also gave us the words vigor and vigil, as well as the English doublet watch.
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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #233 on: July 05, 2006, 10:47:46 AM »
This one's really random, but ultimately not terribly interesting: whatchamacallit comes from a rapid pronunciation of what you may call it. I never had any idea where the ma came from, but the earliest attestations have may instead.

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Offline Porter

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« Reply #234 on: July 05, 2006, 11:00:34 AM »
Indeed it does.
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Offline Noemon

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« Reply #235 on: July 05, 2006, 08:30:11 PM »
Have "may" instead of what?
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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #236 on: July 05, 2006, 08:32:38 PM »
Sorry, I guess that wasn't clear. I meant instead of ma. So the earliest citations versions are something like whatchamaycallit.
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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #237 on: July 07, 2006, 10:04:02 AM »
Here's a nifty one I just learned.

dawn, n.
This is a shortened form of dawning, which apparently comes from Old Norse. The Old English form was daging, which literally means "to become day." A vowel split in Old English led to a front vowel (as in cat) in day, while other forms retained a back vowel (as in cot). The g after the front vowel became y, but after a back vowel it became w.
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Offline Jonathon

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #238 on: July 18, 2006, 12:01:21 PM »
This one's pretty cool.

The words five, finger, and fist appear to all be related, but it's hard to say for certain because no other Indo-European language uses forms related to five for finger, though some do have apparently related forms for fist.

The history for five goes something like this:

PIE *penkwe
Pre-Germanic *penpe
Early Proto-Germanic *fenf
Proto-Germanic *finf
Old English fif or fife
Modern English five

The history for finger likely looks like this:

PIE *penkwros
Early Proto-Germanic *fengros
Proto-Germanic *fingroz
Old English *finger

And fist:

PIE *pnkwstis
Early Proto-Germanic *funhstiz
Proto-Germanic *fuhstiz
West Germanic *fusti
Old English *fyst
Modern English *fist

Old Slavonic had pesti for "fist," which is clearly related on the basis of regular sound changes and semantic connection, and Latin had pugnus, which I suspect is also related, but I don't know enough about its history (or Latin sound changes) to illustrate the connection.

One thing that's interesting about this trio is that it shows how one sound can change in different directions. Proto-Indo-European /kw/ typically became /hw/ in Germanic languages (compare what and Latin quid—this is part of Grimm's Law), but depending on where the word stress fell, it occasionally became /gw/ (this is part of Verner's Law. Additionally, /kw/ became /p/ before /e/ in Pre-Germanic and then became /f/ in Proto-Germanic (I don't think this change has a name). It's interesting how three closely related words can drift so far apart over the course of a couple millennia.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 12:01:37 PM by Jon Boy »
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Offline Noemon

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« Reply #239 on: July 19, 2006, 01:56:24 PM »
Hey, Jon Boy, when you get a minute could you check out KoM's misspelled yogurt thread on Hatrack?  Or I guess I could just explain what I need help with here, couldn't I?

In KoM's thread I'm trying to figure out how the words "mango" and "mangosteen" are related, if they are.  "Mango" apparently comes from the Malay word "mangga", which in turn comes from the Tamil word "mankay".  "Mankay" literally breaks down to "man", the name for the tree the mango comes from, and "kay" meaning fruit (according to the Online Etymological Dictionary).  

The site doesn't have an entry for "mangosteen", but on dictionary.com I found that the word comes from the Malay manggista, mangustan, which is a variant of manggis.  Now, "manggis" looks pretty close to me to the Malay "mangga", but dictionary.com doesn't go into the etymology of "manggis" at all, so you never know.

Can you shed any light on the origin of the Malay "manggis"?
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Offline Jonathon

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #240 on: July 19, 2006, 02:19:55 PM »
Unfortunately not. Etymonline.com doesn't have an entry for "mangosteen," and the OED just says that it comes from the Malay "manggustan" or "manggistan."

Edit: And now I see that you already checked the Online Etymology Dictionary.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 02:21:29 PM by Jon Boy »
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Offline JT

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #241 on: July 20, 2006, 01:06:27 PM »
JB, I wondered if you'd weigh in with peal/peel.  I know it's obscure, but about half the time I see someone use 'peal', they spell it 'peel'.

In fact, I'm sort of in the middle of an argument at a music messageboard I check out every few weeks.  One of the members has a quote from a song no one has ever heard, which is 'her laughter peels like thunder'.  Anyway, after reading it for weeks, it's making me twitchy.

So I mention to her, hey, btw, it's actually 'peals' in that case.  She replies, nuh-uh.

So I break out the definitions -- peel is the outer covering of certain fruits, or the wooden device that you use to extract pizzas from the oven, and peal is a deep, long sound, often associated with church bells.  *sigh*

And I started to wonder about their respective origins.  A sure sign that I've been hanging out with you word nerds too much.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #242 on: July 21, 2006, 10:38:28 AM »
Peal (the noun) is apparently of obscure origin, but it might be short for appeal, originally meaning "summons." So a bell summons you to church, and in time peal comes to have the more generic meaning of "ring." The verb form developed from the noun.

Peel (the verb) ultimately comes from the Latin pilare, meaning "to strip of hair." It seems to have been influenced by the Latin pellis, meaning "hide," so it came to mean "to strip of the top layer" or something like that. The noun form developed from the verb.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 05:52:57 PM by Jon Boy »
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Offline Brinestone

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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #243 on: July 21, 2006, 10:43:28 AM »
Huh. Those are a bit on the strange side. The word for hair comes to mean hide?


Oh. As I was writing the post, I realized that you meant it in the coat of an animal, not the verb.  >.<  
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The random etymology of the day
« Reply #244 on: July 21, 2006, 10:56:55 AM »
Quote
Huh. Those are a bit on the strange side. The word for hair comes to mean hide?
Not exactly. A word meaning "to strip of hair" came to mean "to strip of hide." So it was a shift in meaning from hair to skin and then to rind or other surface layers of stuff.
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #245 on: July 21, 2006, 05:38:42 PM »
The noun form developed from the noun?

That's really weird.  It sounds like one that would turn out to be folksy.  Especially given the modern "science" of depillatories.
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« Reply #246 on: July 21, 2006, 05:54:54 PM »
Oops. I meant that the noun came from the verb.
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« Reply #247 on: July 25, 2006, 10:56:20 AM »
In honor of our state holiday, Pioneer Day (though it's a day late):

Pioneer traces back to the Anglo-Norman peoner, originally meaning "pedestrian" or "foot soldier." This comes from the Old French peon, which apparently has the same meaning (the -ier suffix designates a profession). This in turn evolved from the Post-Classical Latin pedon, which meant "person with flat feet" or "foot soldier." The ped- portion is simply the Latin word for "foot."

Pioneer came to mean a specific kind of foot soldier, namely the kind that went ahead of the main body of troops to dig trenches and mines, fix roads, and that kind of stuff. In other words, they prepared the way for those who followed.

In another dialect of French, peon became paon, which was borrowed into English as pawn. This word also originally referred to foot soldiers, but it came to be associated with the foot soldiers in chess, and by extension, foot soldiers who are sent to die or who are manipulated by higher powers.

And then, of course, there's just plain old peon, which apparently comes from two sources in English—there's the now-rare sense of foot soldiers or lowly officers, which comes from French, and then there's the sense of unskilled, menial workers, which comes through Spanish.
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Offline JT

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« Reply #248 on: July 25, 2006, 12:24:20 PM »
That's awesome.
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Offline Brinestone

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« Reply #249 on: July 25, 2006, 12:40:05 PM »
I agree. *awards Jon Boy first prize*
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