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Author Topic: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s  (Read 5045 times)

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Offline Scott R

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« on: January 25, 2010, 07:12:20 AM »
When I was growing up, I definitely remember being taught that words ending in -s could indicate possession by placing the apostraphe after the ending -s.  Like:

Nicholas' brother
Charles' last will and testament
Bess' dresses
Jesus' tears

Is that the grammatically correct way to do things?  I'm being told it isn't...and if it isn't, could someone point me to the rules that govern this nonsense?

Offline The Genuine

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2010, 07:22:27 AM »
That's what I was taught too.  And I too have since been told it's wrong.

I caved and add the extra S now.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 07:22:51 AM by The Genuine »
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Offline Brinestone

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2010, 07:49:31 AM »
Chicago advises adding the extra 's where it's pronounced and not where it isn't. Which generally means that you'd get:

Nicholas's brother
Charles's last will and testament
Bess's dresses
Jesus' tears (Jesus and Moses and the like are special because their names have two s sounds in a row, so our natural instinct is not to say "Moses's")
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Offline Porter

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2010, 07:50:59 AM »
I say "Moses's" and "Jesus's".

But, like Scott, I was taught to write "Moses'".
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Offline Scott R

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2010, 08:07:04 AM »
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Chicago advises adding the extra 's where it's pronounced and not where it isn't.

Okay-- thanks.  I guess that makes sense, since English is somewhat phonetic.  

But it looks clumsy on paper...

Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2010, 08:45:54 AM »
Someone somewhere taught me that modern names ending in S need the extra S (Charles's, Nicholas's) but that classic names can just use the apostrophe (Jesus', Moses', Archimedes', Euripides')

Also, knock knock...
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Offline rivka

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2010, 08:46:25 AM »
Other guides do not add the superfluous s. I'm with them.

Lois'!
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Offline Porter

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2010, 08:49:16 AM »
English rules are gross and smell like poo.  :grumble:  
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Offline Jonathon

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2010, 09:47:36 AM »
Quote
When I was growing up, I definitely remember being taught that words ending in -s could indicate possession by placing the apostraphe after the ending -s.  Like:

Nicholas' brother
Charles' last will and testament
Bess' dresses
Jesus' tears

Is that the grammatically correct way to do things?  I'm being told it isn't...and if it isn't, could someone point me to the rules that govern this nonsense?
As others have said, it's a correct way to do things. The reason, I believe, is that pronunciation of possessives ending with s is variable. Some people pronounce the extra s, and some don't. And some fascist style guides like AP think there's only one right way to do things. ;)  
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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2010, 09:49:41 AM »
Quote
English rules are gross and smell like poo.  :grumble:
There's something about equating "English rules" with "standardized English orthography" that bugs me for some reason. It's like saying math sucks because you don't like the fact that there are multiple ways to draw division notations.
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Offline sweet clementine

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2010, 10:08:54 AM »
Quote

Also, knock knock...
who's there?
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Offline The Genuine

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2010, 10:11:24 AM »
Quote
There's something about equating "English rules" with "standardized English orthography" that bugs me for some reason.
Me too.
I think Jesse's right.

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Offline TomDavidson

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2010, 10:13:51 AM »
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Some people pronounce the extra s, and some don't.
I couldn't figure out who doesn't pronounce the extra "s," or in what circumstances you might not. After all, no one says -- or would say -- "I stole Jesus tricycle." But then I realized that if the word already had an extra "s" as a consequence of a plural, I normally wouldn't say the "s"; in other words, I would NOT say "I shot out the Smiths-es window."
 
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Offline Porter

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2010, 10:15:29 AM »
Quote
Quote
English rules are gross and smell like poo.  :grumble:
There's something about equating "English rules" with "standardized English orthography" that bugs me for some reason. It's like saying math sucks because you don't like the fact that there are multiple ways to draw division notations.
The fact that there are multiple ways to draw division notations doesn't suck.

The rules for writing English (a subset of "English rules") do suck.
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Offline Scott R

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2010, 10:20:09 AM »
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The rules for writing English (a subset of "English rules") do suck.

I think they're value-neutral.

Offline BlackBlade

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2010, 03:46:46 PM »
Quote
Quote
The rules for writing English (a subset of "English rules") do suck.

I think they're value-neutral.
So they're really Swiss rules?
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2010, 03:55:43 PM »
Quote
Quote

Also, knock knock...
who's there?
Euripides.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline sweet clementine

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2010, 04:15:45 PM »
Euripides who?
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2010, 04:26:24 PM »
Euripides pants, I break-a you face!
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline pooka

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2010, 08:50:01 PM »
:lol:

I like the repeating s sounds explanation.  I will promulgate it.  Next time someone asks, which I anticipate will be never.  

If I feel like messing with them I will say "what did you think a semicolon was for?"
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Offline sweet clementine

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2010, 11:47:05 PM »
:D :D :D
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Offline dkw

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 09:27:29 PM »
Quote
Quote
Some people pronounce the extra s, and some don't.
I couldn't figure out who doesn't pronounce the extra "s," or in what circumstances you might not. After all, no one says -- or would say -- "I stole Jesus tricycle." But then I realized that if the word already had an extra "s" as a consequence of a plural, I normally wouldn't say the "s"; in other words, I would NOT say "I shot out the Smiths-es window."
I don't usually pronounce the extra "s".  I admit if I had thought of this issue before Charles was born, however, he would probably have been named Alan.  It works for me to say, "No John, that's Charles' drink" but I don't like to say-- in answer to "can I have that?"  -- "No, it's Charles."  So then I add the extra "es" sound.  Unless I think ahead and say "No, it belongs to Charles."
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 09:28:19 PM by dkw »

Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 09:50:40 PM »
You'll have to just start calling him Chuck, I guess.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline pooka

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 09:57:58 PM »
I take it "Charlie" is out of the question.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his work."  Comte de Saint-Simon

Offline dkw

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Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2010, 07:00:25 AM »
When he's old enough to decide if he wants a nickname, we'll go with what he wants to be called.  Until then, "Charlie" is out of the question.

Except the occasional "Charlie-bear."