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Author Topic: Language Guardians  (Read 8373 times)

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Offline Jonathon

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« on: August 19, 2008, 08:51:44 PM »
I just came across this episode of the BBC Radio show Word of Mouth, and I thought I'd share. They talk with some notable descriptivists like Geoff Pullum of Language Log and David Crystal, author of The Fight for English, as well as some prescriptivists like the guy who founded the Typo Eradication Advancement League (who seems to think he's not a prescriptivist). It's interesting to hear how many people resort to the slippery-slope "English is going to devolve into caveman grunts if we don't uphold these standards" argument.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 08:52:45 PM by Jonathon »
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 10:23:48 PM »
The eradication of typos is different from linguistic prescriptivism, in my opinion.  What variations a private individual may wield in their private life may be none of my business, but when you publish a document or erect a sign, aberrations are spread throughout the populace.  
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2008, 08:37:51 AM »
I don't see how that makes them not prescriptivists. They're "enforcing rules governing how a language is to be used."
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2008, 09:34:31 AM »
You know, I'll bet this happened to the French-speaking Brits when the commoners started using Norse as well. "This will be the end of our language."

They were right too!
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2008, 09:40:38 AM »
Good thing!

Maybe any language that has to be propped up with rules deserves to die.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2008, 11:52:37 AM »
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You know, I'll bet this happened to the French-speaking Brits when the commoners started using Norse as well. "This will be the end of our language."

They were right too!
French-speaking Brits? The Norse invasions predate the Norman conquest by a couple centuries, and Old Norse never really took over, though a lot of Norse words were borrowed into Old English. The French came along later.

Your point remains, though.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 11:52:53 AM by Jonathon »
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 01:19:53 PM »
Really? Thanks for the info!

Wiki Entry

Fascinating.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2008, 01:25:37 PM by Neutros the Radioactive Dragon »
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 07:59:56 PM »
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some prescriptivists like the guy who founded the Typo Eradication Advancement League (who seems to think he's not a prescriptivist).
He's the guy who said that typos are "vile stains on the delicate fabric of our language." As if English has not survived most of its life without a standard spelling.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 08:00:47 PM »
If you call that living.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 08:04:57 PM »
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He's the guy who said that typos are "vile stains on the delicate fabric of our language." As if English has not survived most of its life without a standard spelling.
Seriously. Judging by the few Early Modern English documents I've read, I'd say that spelling now is more consistent than it's ever been. Take any of the orthographic gripes people have nowadays—misplaced apostrophes, random capitalization, scare quotes, and so on—and educated people were doing the exact thing two and three and four hundred years ago.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 08:41:31 PM »
And look where it got them.  Dead!

[/Tante]
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 10:27:52 PM »
Them was the kinda ginormous uppityness of which I cannot remain irregardless.
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 07:52:49 AM »
Yeah. What pooka said.
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Offline scottneb

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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 07:54:52 AM »
Is it bad that Jon's Super-Grammar and pooka's Super-Ungrammar make me slow down my reading the same?
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2008, 10:29:15 AM »
*sends Scott to the Derek Zoolander Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too*
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2008, 08:22:09 AM »
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Typo Eradication Advancement League


 
Jeff Deck has been charged

Two self-anointed "grammar vigilantes" who toured the nation removing typos from public signs have been banned from national parks after vandalizing a historic marker at the Grand Canyon.

Jeff Michael Deck, 28, of Somerville, Mass., and Benjamin Douglas Herson, 28, of Virginia Beach, Va., pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court in Flagstaff after damaging a rare, hand-painted sign in Grand Canyon National Park. They were sentenced to a year's probation, during which they cannot enter any national park, and were ordered to pay restitution.
 
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2008, 09:38:25 AM »
Judging by Deck's own statements in this article, he sounds like a world-class jerk.
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2008, 10:03:37 PM »
Emense.
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2008, 12:50:06 PM »
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Emense.
"emense" is a fairly common archaic variant of "immense". It wasn't a mistake.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 12:51:54 PM by goofy »
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2008, 12:57:31 PM »
I think that when spelling is as standardized as it is in English, you can reasonably regard the use of archaic or obsolete forms as an error or mistake. Of course, I think it's important to keep that in perspective. Saying that you "shall be haunted by that perversity" is a severe overreaction; saying "this form is not commonly in use and will be negatively regarded by others" is entirely appropriate.

I would assume that the author of the sign chose that spelling because that's how the words sounds and she didn't know the standard spelling, not because she was relying on established historical spelling.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 12:59:07 PM by Jonathon »
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 01:25:14 PM »
Why would you assume that?

I understand that Jeff Deck might not have had the OED on his person, but if he really cared about the language, he might have tried to find out why the word was spelled the way it was.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 01:43:53 PM »
In general, I'd say that you're safer assuming ignorance instead of assuming esoteric knowledge.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 08:04:01 PM »
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Why would you assume that?
What Porter said. Unless the signage contained some evidence that the author knew and preferred archaic spellings, then I'd say that ignorance is the simpler explanation.

Quote
I understand that Jeff Deck might not have had the OED on his person, but if he really cared about the language, he might have tried to find out why the word was spelled the way it was.
Agreed. It seems to me that when some people profess to love language, what they really love is following rules and inflicting those rules on others. Language simply provides a lot of rules to follow and inflict.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 08:04:18 PM by Jonathon »
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 08:12:00 PM »
I think we should all live by one simple rule -- stop trying to get other people to follow your rules.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 10:20:54 PM »
Even when we're forced or entitled to share common areas?
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I think Jesse's right.

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