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Author Topic: Pronouns  (Read 10745 times)

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Offline pooka

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« on: March 21, 2008, 07:33:33 AM »
Someone, I think it was Porter, recently responded to a place where I had jokingly snarkily corrected someone's grammar.

"hipper than I"  - Annie

"hipper than me"  -Pooka

"hipper than I [am]."  -Porter

This is an important question because it's why I didn't write an honors thesis.  Is Porter right?  

Pronouns in Arabic act somewhat as helping verbs, and I was interested in writing about it, but I couldn't think of anything to say.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 07:35:26 AM by pooka »
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his work."  Comte de Saint-Simon

Offline Porter

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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 07:43:10 AM »
I think that all three versions are perfectly correct.

I wasn't saying that your version was wrong -- I was saying that Annie's wasn't.
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 07:54:48 AM »
I too get confused with the I/me thingy.

What is that rule again?

Offline Porter

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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 07:57:16 AM »
A simple rule of thumb -- if you can replace it with "him", use "me", and if you can replace it with "he", use "I".
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 08:07:59 AM »
Quote
Is Porter right?
Right according to what standard? According to a strict prescriptivist standard, "than I" is always correct and "than me" never is, on the assumption that "than" is always and only a conjunction and must be followed by a clause or at least a subject.

According to centuries of usage, however, "than" can function perfectly well as both a conjunction and a preposition, meaning that "than me" is totally cromulent.
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 08:31:03 AM »
Hmm.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his work."  Comte de Saint-Simon

Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 08:34:50 AM »
I like Porter's simple version. It embiggens us all.

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 08:44:12 AM »
I'm not sure that really tells you which to use after "than," though.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 08:49:58 AM »
It tells you that you can use either one.

"Hipper than him."  == cromulent

"Hipper than he [is]." == cromulent
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 08:54:15 AM »
But if you're under the impression that only one is correct, then you'll just end up confused.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 09:04:35 AM »
Gotcha.
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 09:06:24 AM »
See, now I understand better why me is confused.

Offline Porter

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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 09:13:45 AM »
Personally, I prefer "Hipper than me", as it doesn't require any implied words in order for it to make sense to me.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 09:27:53 AM »
I get suspicious anytime a grammatical analysis of a piece of disputed usage requires the assumption of words that aren't there. See also "[what is] more important" versus "more importantly."
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 08:09:10 AM »
There's been a argument, since the 18th century, over whether than is a conjunction or a preposition or both. Most prescriptivists who write books nowadays say it is only a conjunction, and so is always followed by a clause, even if the clause is often missing some words:

You are wiser than I [am].
You love him more than [you love] me.

But it's been a preposition since the 16th century, and can be followed by object pronouns or reflexives. The prescriptivist who insists that than is only a conjunction must conclude that these examples are wrong:

A man no mightier than thyself or me
In personal action, yet prodigious grown
And fearful, as these strange eruptions are.
- Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

And, though by Heaven's severe Decree
She suffers hourly more than me...
Swift, To Stella, Visiting Me in Sickness
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 08:10:41 AM by goofy »

Offline Porter

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« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2008, 08:12:16 AM »
That Shakespear didn't know nothing 'bout talking 'Merikan.
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2008, 09:50:16 AM »
He certainly did use grammar we consider unacceptable, and some of it was then as well. Poetic license is a wonderful thing.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 09:52:53 AM »
What do you think he did that was considered unacceptable at the time?
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 10:06:06 AM »
If you think I am digging up notes from a class I took over 10 years ago, you are sadly mistaken. ;)
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 10:09:23 AM »
I would be surprised if contemporaries of Shakespeare complained about his grammar. As I understand it there was no concept of correct grammar in English before the 18th century.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 10:10:23 AM by goofy »

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2008, 10:19:27 AM »
Quote
If you think I am digging up notes from a class I took over 10 years ago, you are sadly mistaken. ;)
I just expect you to cite your sources. :P

And anyway, the "than [object]" construction appears in a lot of other writing from that time period, too. It is not an example of Shakespeare taking poetic license.

goofy: I'm not sure I would say there was no concept of correct grammar before the eighteenth century, but that is certainly when traditional prescriptivist grammar arose.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 10:22:30 AM by Jonathon »
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2008, 10:25:14 AM »
Quote
I just expect you to cite your sources. :P
Dr. Kipling. ;)

Quote
And anyway, the "than [object]" construction appears in a lot of other writing from that time period, too. It is not an example of Shakespeare taking poetic license.
I wasn't saying it was. I was arguing with using Shakespeare as evidence.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 10:25:25 AM by rivka »
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2008, 10:27:24 AM »
A writer who is considered one of the best writers of English cannot be used as evidence for how to write English???!

Offline rivka

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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2008, 10:30:45 AM »
Best writer hardly is the same thing as one who follows the rules. Shakespeare is often given as an example of knowing how and when to break the rules.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2008, 10:35:46 AM »
Erroneously, I would say. The concept of "the rules" did not exist for another couple centuries.
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