Author Topic: Pronouns (Read 10863 times)

pooka · « **on:** March 21, 2008, 07:33:33 AM »

Someone, I think it was Porter, recently responded to a place where I had jokingly snarkily corrected someone's grammar.

"hipper than I" - Annie

"hipper than me" -Pooka

"hipper than I [am]." -Porter

This is an important question because it's why I didn't write an honors thesis. Is Porter right?

Pronouns in Arabic act somewhat as helping verbs, and I was interested in writing about it, but I couldn't think of anything to say.

Porter · « **Reply #1 on:** March 21, 2008, 07:43:10 AM »

I think that all three versions are perfectly correct.

I wasn't saying that your version was wrong -- I was saying that Annie's wasn't.

Neutros the Radioactive Dragon · « **Reply #2 on:** March 21, 2008, 07:54:48 AM »

I too get confused with the I/me thingy.

What is that rule again?

Porter · « **Reply #3 on:** March 21, 2008, 07:57:16 AM »

A simple rule of thumb -- if you can replace it with "him", use "me", and if you can replace it with "he", use "I".

Jonathon · « **Reply #4 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:07:59 AM »

Quote

Is Porter right?

Right according to what standard? According to a strict prescriptivist standard, "than I" is always correct and "than me" never is, on the assumption that "than" is always and only a conjunction and must be followed by a clause or at least a subject.

According to centuries of usage, however, "than" can function perfectly well as both a conjunction and a preposition, meaning that "than me" is totally cromulent.

pooka · « **Reply #5 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:31:03 AM »

Hmm.

Neutros the Radioactive Dragon · « **Reply #6 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:34:50 AM »

I like Porter's simple version. It embiggens us all.

Jonathon · « **Reply #7 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:44:12 AM »

I'm not sure that really tells you which to use after "than," though.

Porter · « **Reply #8 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:49:58 AM »

It tells you that you can use either one.

"Hipper than him." == cromulent

"Hipper than he [is]." == cromulent

Jonathon · « **Reply #9 on:** March 21, 2008, 08:54:15 AM »

But if you're under the impression that only one is correct, then you'll just end up confused.

Porter · « **Reply #10 on:** March 21, 2008, 09:04:35 AM »

Gotcha.

Neutros the Radioactive Dragon · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2008, 09:06:24 AM »

See, now I understand better why me is confused.

Porter · « **Reply #12 on:** March 21, 2008, 09:13:45 AM »

Personally, I prefer "Hipper than me", as it doesn't require any implied words in order for it to make sense to me.

Jonathon · « **Reply #13 on:** March 21, 2008, 09:27:53 AM »

I get suspicious anytime a grammatical analysis of a piece of disputed usage requires the assumption of words that aren't there. See also "[what is] more important" versus "more importantly."

goofy · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2008, 08:09:10 AM »

There's been a argument, since the 18th century, over whether than is a conjunction or a preposition or both. Most prescriptivists who write books nowadays say it is only a conjunction, and so is always followed by a clause, even if the clause is often missing some words:

You are wiser than I [am].
You love him more than [you love] me.

But it's been a preposition since the 16th century, and can be followed by object pronouns or reflexives. The prescriptivist who insists that than is only a conjunction must conclude that these examples are wrong:

A man no mightier than thyself or me
In personal action, yet prodigious grown
And fearful, as these strange eruptions are.
- Shakespeare, Julius Caesar

And, though by Heaven's severe Decree
She suffers hourly more than me...
Swift, To Stella, Visiting Me in Sickness

Porter · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2008, 08:12:16 AM »

That Shakespear didn't know nothing 'bout talking 'Merikan.

rivka · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2008, 09:50:16 AM »

He certainly did use grammar we consider unacceptable, and some of it was then as well. Poetic license is a wonderful thing.

Jonathon · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2008, 09:52:53 AM »

What do you think he did that was considered unacceptable at the time?

rivka · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2008, 10:06:06 AM »

If you think I am digging up notes from a class I took over 10 years ago, you are sadly mistaken.

goofy · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2008, 10:09:23 AM »

I would be surprised if contemporaries of Shakespeare complained about his grammar. As I understand it there was no concept of correct grammar in English before the 18th century.

Jonathon · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2008, 10:19:27 AM »

Quote

If you think I am digging up notes from a class I took over 10 years ago, you are sadly mistaken.

I just expect you to cite your sources.

And anyway, the "than [object]" construction appears in a lot of other writing from that time period, too. It is not an example of Shakespeare taking poetic license.

goofy: I'm not sure I would say there was no concept of correct grammar before the eighteenth century, but that is certainly when traditional prescriptivist grammar arose.

rivka · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2008, 10:25:14 AM »

Quote

I just expect you to cite your sources.

Dr. Kipling.

Quote

And anyway, the "than [object]" construction appears in a lot of other writing from that time period, too. It is not an example of Shakespeare taking poetic license.

I wasn't saying it was. I was arguing with using Shakespeare as evidence.

goofy · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2008, 10:27:24 AM »

A writer who is considered one of the best writers of English cannot be used as evidence for how to write English???!

rivka · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2008, 10:30:45 AM »

Best writer hardly is the same thing as one who follows the rules. Shakespeare is often given as an example of knowing how and when to break the rules.

Jonathon · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2008, 10:35:46 AM »

Erroneously, I would say. The concept of "the rules" did not exist for another couple centuries.