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Author Topic: 2nd Person Plural  (Read 2532 times)

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Offline Noemon

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2nd Person Plural
« on: June 25, 2007, 07:08:25 AM »
Over the weekend I was at a social function and heard someone use “you’uns”  as a second person plural pronoun.  I’d never heard that one, and I have to admit that I had to restrain the impulse to go into judgemental “what inbred mountain clan did you escape from” mode.  I wouldn’t have said anything, of course, but my mind went in that direction before I reined it in with thoughts of regional linguistic differences and how interesting they are.  I started thinking about second person plurals in general:  you, ya’ll, youse, and you’uns were the only ones I can think of.  Are there others?  With all of the regional dialects in England, and with the 2nd person plural being something of a fault line in the language (it seems to me), I expect that there are, but I don’t know of any.  Can anybody else come up with any others?

Also, why is the 2nd person plural such a fault line?  It’s the only pronoun I can think of that changes from dialect to dialect (actually, now that has me thinking too.  Jon Boy, are there other pronouns that change from English dialect to English dialect?).  Why is that?  Or for that matter, why does standard English use the same word for both the singular and the plural?  It seems like something with that level of ambiguity would have evolved toward clarity a long time ago.  I suppose that the regional variations are probably exactly that evolution, eh?  Which means that (if I’m right) I just answered my second question.
 
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Offline Porter

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2007, 08:14:30 AM »
Second person plural is such a fault line, if  I may be permitted to pull a theory out of my *ahem*, ear, because it's really handy to have, and
Standard English doesn't have one.

Another very common and more acceptable 2nd person plural is "you guys".   By acceptable, I mean that doesn't seem to invoke the same "ignernt hick" judgments as some of those others.

I've also heard "you all" instead of "y'all".    
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2007, 08:23:36 AM »
It's not "ya'll"; it's "y'all." Didn't yer momma teach you nuthin'? ;)

And in some places, "y'all" isn't really plural at all. That would be "all of y'all."

I think Porter is right. The lack of a distinct second person plural pronoun is a problem, and one that many regions have come up with their own response to.
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Offline Porter

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2007, 08:30:29 AM »
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And in some places, "y'all" isn't really plural at all. That would be "all of y'all."
That doesn't match up with how I've heard it used.

IME:

"All y'all" is used to explicitly refer to everybody present or that can hear the words, while "y'all" is always plural (I don't think I've ever heard y'all used as a singular, except as a misspeaking, which I have been guilty of), but may only refer to a portion of the people present, as in "y'all three" verses "all y'all".
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Offline pooka

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2007, 08:38:44 AM »
I see Jon Boy viewing, so we'll probably do a simul-post.  "You" is the proper 2nd person plural, the 2nd person singular was "thou" but it fell out of use, and became associated only with religious stuff.  In Russian, the equivalent of "thou" is a problem because it was only supposed to be used between family members.  There was a discussion about it in Anna Karenina, that it would have been offensive for him to say "thou" to her, but he felt it would be cold to say "you" so instead he spoke French.

I wonder if the same thing will happen to "it" if I keep using "they" as a gender non-specific.
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Offline Jonathon

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2007, 08:58:11 AM »
My experience with "y'all" and "all y'all" matches Porter's.


Here's a map showing the distribution of different plural forms.


Standard English uses the same word for second person singular and second person plural because our singular version (thou) disappeared a few hundred years ago. As with many other languages, English used the plural as a formal pronoun. The semantic creep kept going, and pretty soon it was used as a pronoun to address equals, leaving thou for children and inferiors. Then it dropped out altogether except for a few dialects (notably the Quakers) that hung onto it.

But that left us unable to distinguish between singular and plural in the second person, which necessitates some innovation. It's not like there's a set way to say "you plural," so different people came up with different strategies. And since we don't always need to make it clear that it's plural, we often just use "you," which I would guess has slowed down the standardization of forms like "you guys" and "y'all."

I know there are some more strange pronouns that are used in other dialects (mostly British regional dialects), but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is um for he/him. I'll have to see what else I can find.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2007, 09:05:24 AM »
Hey, I got two of the top (percentage wise) 2nd person plural pronouns.  If this were the Family Feud, I would be doing great!
« Last Edit: June 25, 2007, 09:06:50 AM by Porteiro »
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Offline Jonathon

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2007, 09:39:53 AM »
Do you mean the top two other than you?
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2007, 09:50:07 AM »
Seeing "you" in italics at the end of a sentence made me think of it being pronounced by Charlie's dad in "So I married an Axe Murderer".
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Offline Noemon

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 09:59:31 AM »
That makes sense, Jon Boy.

Given all of the regional variations for 2nd person plural in the US, I imagine that there must be quite a few in England as well.  Any idea what  they are?

I'm looking forward to reading what you find out with regard to the alternates for other pronouns.
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I hope you have a wonderful adventure in Taiwan. Not a swashbuckling adventure, just a prawn flavored pringles adventure.

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Offline Farmgirl

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2007, 11:03:51 AM »
That map is fascinating.  Looks like Kansas has a good cross-section of several different types; however I have personally NEVER heard anyone use "You lot" or "yins" or "yous, youse";  but I often hear what is consider the "Texas" way "all y'all" and "you guys" is very common here.

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Offline Tante Shvester

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2007, 12:23:46 PM »
According to your link, Jonathon, "y'all" is common currency throughout New Jersey.   I live in Jersey, I speak Jersey, and I'm telling you, it just ain't so.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2007, 12:25:23 PM »
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The semantic creep
Just wanted to point out that this would make an excellent user name.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2007, 12:29:47 PM »
As opposed to an anti-semantic creep?
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Offline Jonathon

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2007, 12:47:34 PM »
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According to your link, Jonathon, "y'all" is common currency throughout New Jersey.   I live in Jersey, I speak Jersey, and I'm telling you, it just ain't so.
The problem with these maps is that they're not very easy to read. The dots are way too big, and you can't zoom in. Better detail would be nice. From what I can tell, "y'all" is not common currency in New Jersey, but it only takes a few dots clustered together to make it appear so. Just look at the maps for "you," "you guys," and even "you all"—the dots look much denser than they do on the "y'all" map.
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Offline Jonathon

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2007, 12:49:06 PM »
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As opposed to an anti-semantic creep?
Bigot.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2007, 12:53:16 PM »
I am an anti-anti-anti-bigot bigot.
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Offline Jonathon

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2nd Person Plural
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2007, 02:06:33 PM »
*head a splode*
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2007, 01:26:53 AM »
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Quote
As opposed to an anti-semantic creep?
Bigot.
 :lol:  
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 05:58:04 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised to learn "ya'll" occurs in Bruce Springsteen's New Jersey.  
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