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Author Topic: The origins of the Irish and the British  (Read 4999 times)

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Offline Jonathon

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« on: March 07, 2007, 08:34:14 PM »
There was an interesting and perplexing article in the New York Times yesterday about the origins of the peoples of Ireland and Great Britain. It talked about new genetic evidence that shows that they are more or less the same people, with only small additions from new groups over the last 16,000 years. This means that all the Indo-European invaders over the years—the Celts, the Romans, the Anglo-Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans—were only only drops in the genetic bucket. They left a large linguistic mark, but they apparently didn't leave a huge genetic one. I have absolutely no problem believing this.

What I do have a problem believing, however, is all the linguistic hooey in the article. Just because the original inhabitants of the region were genetically related to the Basque doesn't mean they spoke a related language. But then it gets weirder after that. First there's the claim that Celtic is far older than previously believed (what does that even mean, anyway?), but then they claim that English constitutes a separate, fourth branch of the Germanic family. Huh?

This all is apparently based on a dating method called glottochronology—a method that linguists developed and then abandoned decades ago. But now geneticists think they can use the technique to date language change, and I really can't fathom why.

And of course, the article doesn't provide any of the data, so it's impossible to see how the researchers came to their conclusions. But I honestly have no doubt that their linguistic claims are easily falsified. So why do geneticists think they can use a discredited linguistic technique and suddenly become linguists? I doubt they'd appreciate it if linguists dabbled in genetics in the same fashion.  
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Offline pooka

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 03:10:26 AM »
Glottochronology sounds like something from Star Trek.
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Offline Japannie

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 07:29:57 AM »
Linguists dabbling in genetics? What a shocking concept!

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« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 07:30:13 AM by Japannie »
[size=8]For a new convert, even weirder than reading the Book of Mormon is reading the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd be reading along and find something like Massachusetts. What on earth is Massachusetts doing in holy scripture?![span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']

-Elder Couzelis[/size][/font][/span]

Offline Farmgirl

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2007, 07:31:37 AM »
Maybe I didn't read the article closely enough -- but where does it say they are mostly genetically Basque?  Aren't the Basque from Spain and France (the Pyrenees area?)

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Offline Jonathon

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2007, 11:20:16 AM »
End of the third paragraph.
Quote
In Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque.
I've seen other articles that said it a little more clearly: genetic studies have shown that the Celtic population of Ireland and Great Britain is closely related to the Basques. This implies that Europe was initially populated by one group of people. Subsequent waves (including all the Indo-Europeans) added a little to the gene pool and a lot to the language. Apparently the Basques were one group that escaped the oncoming waves of Indo-European languages.
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Offline Japannie

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 11:22:55 AM »
Nobody thinks I'm funny.

*boohoohoo*
[size=8]For a new convert, even weirder than reading the Book of Mormon is reading the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd be reading along and find something like Massachusetts. What on earth is Massachusetts doing in holy scripture?![span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']

-Elder Couzelis[/size][/font][/span]

Offline Jonathon

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 11:25:13 AM »
Makin' babies is serious bidness.
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Offline Porter

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 11:26:00 AM »
*pity laugh*

:heh:
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 11:26:10 AM by Porteiro »
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Offline Japannie

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2007, 11:26:07 AM »
Only to a barbarous Saxon like yourself.
[size=8]For a new convert, even weirder than reading the Book of Mormon is reading the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd be reading along and find something like Massachusetts. What on earth is Massachusetts doing in holy scripture?![span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']

-Elder Couzelis[/size][/font][/span]

Offline Jonathon

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2007, 11:30:48 AM »
But genetically speaking, I'm probably no more than 20 to 30 percent Saxon.
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Offline Porter

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2007, 12:04:00 PM »
Quote
Only to a barbarous Saxon like yourself.
Like this?

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Offline rivka

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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2007, 07:35:36 PM »
Quote
Nobody thinks I'm funny.

*boohoohoo*
I chuckled.
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
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Offline Japannie

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2007, 08:51:21 PM »
Well, Rivka thinks I'm funny.

*notes on resume*
[size=8]For a new convert, even weirder than reading the Book of Mormon is reading the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd be reading along and find something like Massachusetts. What on earth is Massachusetts doing in holy scripture?![span style=\'font-size:8pt;line-height:100%\']

-Elder Couzelis[/size][/font][/span]

Offline rivka

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2007, 09:00:30 PM »
Mildly amusing, at any rate.
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Offline Porter

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2007, 09:00:55 PM »
Burn!
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2007, 09:02:13 PM »
Aw, it wasn't meant to be mean.

Well, not very. ;)
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Offline Porter

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2007, 09:14:09 PM »
She's a sly one.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2007, 09:21:47 PM »
Bless her heart.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2007, 09:42:42 PM »
This VD, Mary Cate gave me a cookie which was painted (she does watercolors with food coloring on cookies) to look like a human heart.

:wub:
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2007, 09:55:25 PM »
I wouldn't recommend abbreviating Valentine's Day that way.

Though that story does make me like bev even more than I already did.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2007, 10:10:19 PM »
Valentine's Day?  What are you talking about?
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2007, 10:10:36 PM »
Quote
I wouldn't recommend abbreviating Valentine's Day that way.
*laugh* Agreed.

Although apparently you're not alone.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 10:11:32 PM by rivka »
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Offline Jonathon

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2007, 11:11:41 AM »
VD == venereal disease
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2007, 11:13:45 AM »
(I was trying to joke that  I had been talking about venereal disease from the start, and didn't understand why they were bringing up Valentine's Day.)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 11:14:02 AM by Porteiro »
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Offline Jonathon

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The origins of the Irish and the British
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2007, 11:17:30 AM »
<—slow
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