Author Topic: The random etymology of the day (Read 238737 times)

rivka · « **Reply #1500 on:** February 25, 2012, 07:24:44 PM »

Jonathon, I'm reading a book that makes claims about the etymology of soldier that the online sources I consulted do not back up. However, you have both access to more sources than I and the knowledge to discriminate, so I was wondering what your opinion was.

Jonathon · « **Reply #1501 on:** February 25, 2012, 08:41:02 PM »

The OED and Etymonline.com both say that it ultimately comes from the Latin solidus, a Roman gold coin. The word soldarus was formed from it meaning "one who has pay."

What does your book say?

rivka · « **Reply #1502 on:** February 25, 2012, 10:56:18 PM »

It (Salt: A World History) claims

Quote

In fact, the Latin word sal became the French word solde, meaning pay, which is the origin of the word, soldier.

I was skeptical, even before I tried looking it up. And it is far from the only claim the book makes that I find questionable, or even plain wrong. But I am absolutely refusing to make the obvious jokes about the method I am using while continuing to read the book.

Porter · « **Reply #1503 on:** February 26, 2012, 08:35:34 AM »

Quote

But I am absolutely refusing to make the obvious jokes about the method I am using while continuing to read the book.

Liar! Liar! Liaaaaaaaaaaaaar!

Jonathon · « **Reply #1504 on:** February 26, 2012, 08:48:32 AM »

Quote from: rivka on February 25, 2012, 10:56:18 PM

It (Salt: A World History) claims
Quote
In fact, the Latin word sal became the French word solde, meaning pay, which is the origin of the word, soldier.

Ugh. I wonder where the heck they got that idea. I have no reason to doubt that the etymology in the OED is right, since it seems to be well-attested and makes sense on semantic and phonological grounds. This looks like they're just making stuff up, which I suppose would not be a first for popular books that dabble in etymology.

rivka · « **Reply #1505 on:** February 26, 2012, 04:12:52 PM »

Quote from: Jonathon on February 26, 2012, 08:48:32 AM

Ugh. I wonder where the heck they got that idea.

My precise reaction to roughly 20% of the book so far. Another 30% has been boring.

But that still leaves about 50% that's worth reading, so I'll probably keep going.

rivka · « **Reply #1506 on:** February 26, 2012, 04:14:16 PM »

Quote from: Porter on February 26, 2012, 08:35:34 AM

Quote
But I am absolutely refusing to make the obvious jokes about the method I am using while continuing to read the book.
Liar! Liar! Liaaaaaaaaaaaaar!

An allusion is not a joke.

[/prim]

Tante Shvester · « **Reply #1507 on:** February 26, 2012, 05:47:49 PM »

Spurious etymologies are some of my favorite etymologies. I'm certain I could come up with something better than "milk and sugar". We all could.

We all should.

pooka · « **Reply #1508 on:** March 01, 2012, 09:57:33 AM »

Actually, Roman troops were paid in salt.* But this travels into that shadowy realm of pre-latinate etymology.

*I realize this sounds like a setup for some kind of joke. But it's true!

rivka · « **Reply #1509 on:** March 01, 2012, 10:06:56 AM »

Quote from: pooka on March 01, 2012, 09:57:33 AM

Actually, Roman troops were paid in salt.*

Yes, the book mentions that as well, and cites it in the etymology of salary.

It doesn't get EVERYTHING wrong.

Jonathon · « **Reply #1510 on:** March 01, 2012, 11:13:33 AM »

The OED actually says that salārium was "originally money allowed to Roman soldiers for the purchase of salt," not salt itself.

rivka · « **Reply #1511 on:** March 01, 2012, 11:27:56 AM »

Since the Roman government controlled the sale of salt, that seems inefficient.

The Genuine · « **Reply #1512 on:** March 01, 2012, 11:39:13 AM »

The Romans manipulated it's pricing but did not control its sale in the sense the Chinese did.

pooka · « **Reply #1513 on:** March 01, 2012, 03:32:00 PM »

:Shrug: I'll let you and Magistra Welch hash it out in the afterlife. I figure the modes of remuneration evolved over the 1200 year history of the Roman empire.

Dobie · « **Reply #1514 on:** March 01, 2012, 03:54:00 PM »

Quote from: pooka on March 01, 2012, 09:57:33 AM

Actually, Roman troops were paid in salt.* But this travels into that shadowy realm of pre-latinate etymology.

*I realize this sounds like a setup for some kind of joke. But it's true!

Soldiers who participated in combat training were given peas as bonus pay.

The Genuine · « **Reply #1515 on:** March 01, 2012, 04:28:46 PM »

Interesting. Paid in protein rather than metal?

Marianne Dashwood · « **Reply #1516 on:** March 02, 2012, 07:28:13 AM »

I always pay my Roman mercenaries in hummus. They like it!

Tante Shvester · « **Reply #1517 on:** March 02, 2012, 09:39:35 AM »

I never get to have any Roman mercenaries.

::pout::

Marianne Dashwood · « **Reply #1518 on:** March 02, 2012, 12:49:09 PM »

You gotta be a little more bloodthirsty.

Dobie · « **Reply #1519 on:** March 02, 2012, 01:00:25 PM »

That's where we get the saying, "If you want peas you must prepare for war."

Jonathon · « **Reply #1520 on:** May 14, 2012, 12:24:23 PM »

Dinner originally meant "breakfast". It comes from the Old French disner, which ultimately comes from the Latin *disjejunare, from dis- 'undo' + jejunare 'to fast'. Over the centuries, the meal shifted later and later in the day until it came to mean (usually) the last meal of the day.

Interestingly, all the names of meals in French come from this same root. At some point the word was reformed as déjeuner, still meaning "to break one's fast", but this again shifted later in the day and became lunch. Then breakfast became petit déjeuner.

pooka · « **Reply #1521 on:** May 15, 2012, 07:31:56 AM »

How many people consider fasting no food at all? There's fasts from meat and Ramadan fasts are broken at night.

Tante Shvester · « **Reply #1522 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:59:49 AM »

When Jews fast, there is no food, no water, no toothbrushing, no chewing gum, nothing at all.

Brinestone · « **Reply #1523 on:** May 15, 2012, 11:24:58 AM »

Mormon fasts are the same, minus the no toothbrushing.

Tante Shvester · « **Reply #1524 on:** May 15, 2012, 12:34:34 PM »

Quote from: Jonathon on May 14, 2012, 12:24:23 PM

Dinner originally meant "breakfast". It comes from the Old French disner, which ultimately comes from the Latin *disjejunare, from dis- 'undo' + jejunare 'to fast'. Over the centuries, the meal shifted later and later in the day until it came to mean (usually) the last meal of the day.

Interestingly, all the names of meals in French come from this same root. At some point the word was reformed as déjeuner, still meaning "to break one's fast", but this again shifted later in the day and became lunch. Then breakfast became petit déjeuner.

I'll bet there are truck stops in France that boast "Breakfast served all day", without irony.