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Messages—theCrowsWife

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English & Linguistics / You keep using that word. I do not think
« on: December 12, 2007, 04:43:10 PM »
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What am I? chopped liver? (to use a Tante-ism).  I have a link to Polyface too!

(great that you caught that, though, Mel.  I probably would have read right over it and not even noticed the incorrect use)
I'll just keep on digging, over here. (The hole that I'm standing in, that is.)

--

The mistake didn't particularly bother me, but it did make me laugh. I'm still chuckling over "pasteurized ducklings" every time I think of it. Then I start thinking about "homogenized ducklings," and maybe even "heavy whipping ducklings," and then I'm having way too much fun.

It reminds me of being a silly teenager on too much sugar and caffiene, where we thought the funniest thing was going through the pantry and replacing parts of food names with the word "chicken," such as "vegetarian refried chicken."

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / You keep using that word. I do not think
« on: December 09, 2007, 09:42:18 AM »
Oh, because they're probably one of the best-known pasture-based farms in the country. If you've read Michael Pollan's Omnivore's Dilemma, they're the farm featured there. So it's funny and sad that their preferred hatchery used the word pasteurized instead of pastured.

Sorry, I should have made that more clear. I knew that Porter would know what I was talking about, but I didn't think of other people.  :blush:

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / You keep using that word. I do not think
« on: December 09, 2007, 08:13:37 AM »
Yes, "pasteurized" was the reason I posted that snippet, although it's true that there are other problems as well.

The sad thing is that I found that site through Polyface farms. I might order some of those Muscovies from them, since my usual hatchery doesn't carry them. I'm still looking, though.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / You keep using that word. I do not think
« on: December 08, 2007, 06:34:56 PM »
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Muscovies are excellent foragers and can utilize large quantities of grass.  If good quality forage is available pasteurized ducklings required only light feeds of grain once daily.

From Ridgway Hatchery's website on the product page.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Quotes from work
« on: December 07, 2007, 03:27:52 PM »
Jonathon, what you're saying about adverbs not being a predictor of poor quality writing probably is true in the abstract. But, like Brinestone, I have read and critiqued a lot of amateur writing in the last few years (I'll add here that I consider myself to still be an amateur, although a more knowledgeable one than a few years ago). In actual practice, over-use of adverbs (specifically -ly ones, as Brinestone noted) is so common amongst beginning writers that it is actually a predictor.

Back to the mole analogy, if you just thought that a mole was a mole,  you wouldn't be able to predict cancer by examining them. However, if you've learned through experience or training that some kinds of moles are usually bad news, they become much more useful. So, someone who has had the experience of reading and critiquing lots of amateur fiction will spot the "bad" adverbs much more easily than someone who doesn't have that experience. That person would also be more likely to scrutinize all adverbs for signs of badness.

Some other fiction writing rules (off the top of my head, based on things I see frequently). These are all things that can be broken if it is absolutely necessary for the story, but there are always consequences. If a writer is skilled enough to handle it, they'll do what they can to minimize the consequences. With luck, only someone trained in the rules will notice, and then only to say, "Hey, look at how this guy broke this rule! And it totally works in this story!"

-Show, don't tell. Personally, I believe that the rule is more correctly stated as "Show what is important and interesting, tell what is important and less interesting, and skip anything that is both unimportant and uninteresting." Example of this rule taken to the extreme: Robert Jordan. However, a lot of new writers do need to learn to write actual scenes instead of just stating what happens, or to show a character being angry rather than saying that he is, etc.

-If you're writing in limited omniscience POV, you can't tell us what non-POV characters are thinking.

-If you're writing in limited omniscience POV, you can't tell us anything that the POV character doesn't know.

-Just use "said," not "remarked, whispered, shouted, etc." Occasional use is fine, but if at all possible, include that information in other ways, like through the actions and thoughts of the character. This goes back to the "show, don't tell" rule.

-Don't hide information that the POV character knows that is important to the story. ESPECIALLY don't taunt the reader by having the character think about the information, but not actually share it. Writers think that hiding information increases suspense, but it really just increases frustration. In some genres this has become so entrenched that it's actually accepted as part of the way you write stories for that genre, but definitely don't use it outside of that genre (it seems like a lot of mystery stories are written this way, although I haven't kept up with the mystery genre so things may have changed). The exception to this is if you have an unreliable narrator, but those can be tricky to handle well.

There are plenty more, but those are broken so frequently that they tend to stay at the top of my mind.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Quotes from work
« on: December 07, 2007, 01:20:45 PM »
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Can you point me to any fiction that doesn't use adverbs?

If all fiction uses adverbs, than the presence of adverbs in fiction isn't a sign of anything.
That's false logic. An irregularly shaped mole can be a sign of skin cancer, but pointing at cancer-free patients who have a lot of moles and saying that therefore moles are meaningless for predicting cancer is pretty ludicrous.

Now granted, in my first statement, I was being a bit flip (hence the sticking-out-of-tongue). However, I did clarify several times that I was referring to excessive usage, and I never stated that ever using an adverb was wrong. They just tend to be used as shortcuts by writers. (And I'm not saying that shortcuts are always bad either; everything has a time and a place.)

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I don't see why fiction writing is that special or different.

Not special, but different, in that every form of writing has different rules and guidelines. They all have different purposes and audiences, after all. If I pick up a user manual, I expect the information I need to be easy to find and understand, and thorough enough to answer my question. When I pick up a novel, I expect to be immersed in an interesting story with interesting characters.

I could list off quite a few "rules" for fiction writing that, if followed, will generally improve a writer's prose. That's not to say that someone who thoroughly understands the rules and why they exist can't break them; on the contrary, judiciously breaking the rules is often necessary in great writing. However, the new writer who breaks them out of ignorance usually will find that their prose is better if the rules are followed.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Quotes from work
« on: December 07, 2007, 10:58:48 AM »
Even with the caveat that I'm speaking of fiction writing?

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Quotes from work
« on: December 07, 2007, 09:00:44 AM »
Yes, that would be why I said that adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing, not that they always are. I also said that "Sometimes an adverb really is the best choice, but it's a lot less frequently than many people believe."

Unclarity and overuse. I don't see where we are actually disagreeing here.

I would still remove "literally" from the posted bio, though. It sounds very unprofessional to me.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Quotes from work
« on: December 07, 2007, 07:04:44 AM »
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Besides, adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing.  :P
:blink:

Really? Why in the world do you think that?
In fiction. Adverbs are often used with weak verbs, when often there is an actual verb that means the same thing as the verb-adverb pair. Or they're used paired with the word "said" as a way to state how a character is feeling, when that should have been established in other ways (behavior, thoughts if we're in that character's POV, prior history, etc).

Adverbs are easy ways to add detail, which means that they tend to get overused in fiction. Many writers (especially beginners) will improve their prose if they get rid of as many of them as they can, as long as they don't go to ridiculous lengths to avoid them. Sometimes an adverb really is the best choice, but it's a lot less frequently than many people believe.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Quotes from work
« on: December 06, 2007, 03:45:19 PM »
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The act of seeing is literal too.  :P

And I think anyone reading it would take "literally" to have wide scope over the clause, so I don't think anyone is going to have trouble understanding it. Such is the beauty of adverbs.
I didn't say it was incorrect or that people would misunderstand it, I said I would remove it. It doesn't sound professional to me at all.

Besides, adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing.  :P

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Because sometimes it's not a good time
« on: December 06, 2007, 06:03:12 AM »
That one always makes me laugh. I always wonder where, exactly, are they going to tow the line to? It kind of makes the phrase mean the opposite of what they meant.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Quotes from work
« on: December 06, 2007, 06:00:23 AM »
I would dump the "literally." If it absolutely must stay, move it so that the sentence reads, "His work is seen by literally thousands everyday." The number is what is literal, not the act of seeing.

Otherwise, what Jonathon said and it'll look good.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Language Death
« on: December 05, 2007, 07:56:44 AM »
When I was in college I worked for a few years on a dictionary project that was documenting Tohono O'odham (Papago). There are many fascinating things that can be learned from these lesser known languages that help linguists to understand human language as a whole.

Unfortunately, the dictionary project's website hasn't been updated since I left, so I don't think much more work has been done on it. It makes me wonder if I provided a lot of the forward energy in those two years. I was just an undergraduate (the only one amongst several grad students and faculty), so it never occurred to me that the project would fall apart after I left. Maybe it was a combination of factors that caused the collapse; I have no idea.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Prepositions are weird
« on: October 25, 2007, 08:18:08 AM »
I stand corrected.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Prepositions are weird
« on: October 25, 2007, 06:35:32 AM »
I think there's a good chance that Salatin coined that term. I think I've pretty much only seen it used in pasture-farming circles. It's a useful word, though.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Where you live, is "appetizing" a noun?
« on: September 14, 2007, 10:30:51 AM »
Clearly your map is out of date.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Where you live, is "appetizing" a noun?
« on: September 14, 2007, 10:21:01 AM »
(PA)

The first thing that came to my mind for PY was Pennsyltucky.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / Where you live, is "appetizing" a noun?
« on: September 08, 2007, 03:14:29 PM »
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There is also a meaning that it's a way of preparing leather that makes it white, as opposed to Tanning.
Actually, the distinction is between using vegetable sources (bark, leaves) or chemical sources (alum). Technically, tanning only refers to vegetable sources, but that distinction is rarely made anymore. From what I've seen, now if the distinction needs to be made, the leather is called "veg-tanned."

You're right, though, in that tanning solutions made from bark, etc, stain the skins and make them the characteristic brown color. So if you want to preserve a skin (such as a fur) without staining it, you would taw it.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / I hate journalistic writing
« on: September 08, 2007, 02:17:41 PM »
I was the main programmer for the Arizona Native American Dictionary Project. I mostly worked on the Tohono O'odham dictionary, but I also helped with the Hiaki dictionary and the XML scheme. Unfortunately, it looks like the project came to a standstill after I left. I worked on it for about two years, so I spent a lot of time in the Linguistics building. I also knew several of the professors from classes that I had taken.

ETA: Heidi Harley worked on the language part of the Hiaki dictionary, if I remember correctly.

--Mel

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English & Linguistics / I hate journalistic writing
« on: September 08, 2007, 01:47:27 PM »
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This was just posted on Language Log. Sadly, I don't know if even an audio version could've saved this headline.
I used to work in the Linguistics Department of the University of Arizona, so it was kind of weird to suddenly come across names that I know (Heidi Harley and Andrew Carnie).

--Mel

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