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Author Topic: The Perfect Language?  (Read 12000 times)

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Offline Porter

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« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2005, 12:07:34 PM »
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This seems like such an odd strategy. I guess it worked for the French, but it certainly didn't work for the Britons when they invited the Anglo-Saxons to come over.
I wonder if the time period had anything to do with it.  Didn't the Britons try it about 500 years before the French tried it?  Maybe the Vikings got soft as time went on.
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Offline saxon75

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« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2005, 12:07:36 PM »
OK, fine.  Do they still count as conquerors if they were intentionally allowed in? :rolleyes:
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2005, 12:08:43 PM »
They are conquerors if they conquered.

I name today the day of the tautology.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 12:09:34 PM by mr_porteiro_head »
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Offline saxon75

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« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2005, 12:12:17 PM »
Can a group of alleged conquerors be accurately considered to have conquered if they were intentionally allowed in?
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2005, 12:13:51 PM »
Of course, if they were first let in, and then they proceeded to conquer.

Who are you talking about?  The Anglo-Saxons?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 12:16:48 PM by mr_porteiro_head »
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Offline saxon75

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« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2005, 12:23:31 PM »
I'm talking about the Vikings who settled in Normandy.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2005, 12:25:28 PM »
I wouldn't say they really conquered Normandy.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2005, 12:27:39 PM »
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I wonder if the time period had anything to do with it.  Didn't the Britons try it about 500 years before the French tried it?  Maybe the Vikings got soft as time went on.
Yeah, the Anglo-Saxons started invading about the year 500. But they probably went on to conquer because there was no one to stop them, whereas the Norman Vikings probably didn't have the resources or the desire to take over all of France.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2005, 12:27:47 PM »
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I wouldn't say they really conquered Normandy.
Neither would I.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 12:28:16 PM by mr_porteiro_head »
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Offline Icarus

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« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2005, 12:29:11 PM »
Wouldn't it suck to be known for all of history as "Charles the Simple"?
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2005, 12:31:01 PM »
At least history knows him.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2005, 12:37:53 PM »
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Wouldn't it suck to be known for all of history as "Charles the Simple"?
Or how about Ethelred the Unready?

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Offline Porter

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« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2005, 12:39:40 PM »
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According to William of Malmesbury, Ethelred defecated in the baptismal font as a child, which led St. Dunstan to prophesy that the English monarchy would be overthrown during Ethelred's reign.
:lol:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 12:39:52 PM by mr_porteiro_head »
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2005, 12:49:13 PM »
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This story is, however, almost certainly a fabrication.
That's too bad. And his name wasn't even "unready"! It simply meant "unadvised." History is so much more fun through the rose-colored glasses of ignorance.
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Offline saxon75

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« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2005, 12:53:59 PM »
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When they moved to France, did they come as conquerors or just immigrants?
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Conquerors.
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Porter, your links both have to do with the Norman conquest of England, but I was asking about their move from Scandinavia to France, not from France to England.
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From my second link:
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Normandy is a region in northwest France which at the time had experienced extensive Viking settlement. Beginning about 150 years earlier in a French Carolingian ruler Charles the Simple had allowed a group of Vikings, under their leader Rollo, to settle in northern France with the intention they would provide protection along the coast against further Viking invaders. This proved successful and the Vikings, who were known as the Northmen from which Normandy is derived, held off further Viking invaders. The Normans quickly adapted to the indigenous culture, renouncing paganism and converting to Christianity, adopting the langue d'oïl of their new subjects and, through the introduction of Norse features, transforming it into the Norman language, and intermarrying with the local populations.
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Can a group of alleged conquerors be accurately considered to have conquered if they were intentionally allowed in?
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Of course, if they were first let in, and then they proceeded to conquer.

Who are you talking about? The Anglo-Saxons?
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I'm talking about the Vikings who settled in Normandy.
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I wouldn't say they really conquered Normandy.
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Neither would I.
OK, then.  Thanks.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2005, 12:58:03 PM »
:lol:

That's a lot of work to go to just to show someone the inconsistency in their argument.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2005, 01:04:12 PM »
OH!!!!  I get it now!!!!

I mis-read your question
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When they moved to France, did they come as conquerors or just immigrants?
, substituting England for France.
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Offline Marianne Dashwood

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« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2005, 01:22:38 PM »
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It must've been that French was a step up from Norse, socially speaking, while English was a step down from French.
This makes the most sense to me so far. French was a better language than Norse, but English was a worse language than French. I get it.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2005, 01:22:58 PM by Marianne Dashwood »
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2005, 01:24:37 PM »
More prestigious, not better. :pirate:  
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2005, 01:30:09 PM »
And that's not why they did it anyway. :pirate:
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Offline Marianne Dashwood

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« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2005, 01:34:04 PM »
The only question remaining, then, would be whether English was better or worse than Norse. When the Danes moved into Britain, it was pretty much a draw. I don't think we really satisfactorily  answered that question until 1976, when ABBA started recording in English.
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Offline Noemon

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« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2005, 01:44:27 PM »
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History is so much more fun through the rose-colored glasses of ignorance.

 :lol:  
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2005, 02:07:02 PM »
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The only question remaining, then, would be whether English was better or worse than Norse. When the Danes moved into Britain, it was pretty much a draw. I don't think we really satisfactorily  answered that question until 1976, when ABBA started recording in English.
I think you answered your own question. The Danes spoke a dialect of Old Norse. However, I don't think ABBA helps your case.
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Offline Marianne Dashwood

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« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2005, 02:57:54 PM »
Of course it does. Had ABBA just recorded in Swedish, the Danes would have won.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2005, 03:00:11 PM »
Actually, I guess you're right. The English would've been too busy stabbing icepicks into their ears.
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