Author Topic: Was/Were (Read 6136 times)

kojabu · « **on:** August 03, 2005, 08:22:32 AM »

If I was versus If I were

Is "If I was" ever right or is it always wrong? My friend has this thing about the subjunctive because it was hammered into her head in high school, but I don't recall ever being taught it.

Jonathon · « **Reply #1 on:** August 03, 2005, 08:26:21 AM »

Most people were never taught about the subjunctive. I never learned what it was until I was a sophomore in college, even though I used it correctly.

"If I was" is almost always wrong, I think. The subjunctive should be used whenever you're talking about something contrary to fact. Thus, "If I were a rich man" is in the subjunctive because I'm not a rich man. However, if I said something like, "If I was there, I don't remember it," it would stay in the indicative mood because it's not necessarily contrary to fact—it's just unknown.

Does that make sense?

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2005, 12:19:46 PM »

Is it really supposed to be contrary to fact? My understanding (which probably only applies to Romance languages) is that it's expressing something subjective - something that is true from a certain point of view without being universally, empirically true, or something that is conditionally or hypothetically true. Thus, if I were a rich man isn't so much contrary as much as hypothetical or possible.

One of my French lit professors did her doctorate in Old French and said that the subjunctive was used a lot more in the middle ages because so much of life was seen as being conditional or possible rather than existing concretely.

Jonathon · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2005, 12:53:41 PM »

The "contrary to fact" thing is just one aspect, and I think it only applies to the past tense use of the subjunctive. The present tense subjunctive is used to express desire or a command. I don't know French well enough to compare and contrast its subjunctive rules with English's.

However, I highly doubt your professor's assertion about the subjunctive mood in Old French. I just don't think it's possible to measure how conditional or possible ancient speakers thought something was. It also ignores the fact that use of the subjunctive mood has been diminishing in all Indo-European languages (as far as I know, anyway) for thousands of years. This is simply part of the cycle of moving away from an inflectional language to an analytic one.

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2005, 01:10:09 PM »

I'm sure she made the point a lot better than me, and I'm sure it was more of a historical conjecture than anything.

kojabu · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2005, 01:25:32 PM »

Is there a past tense subjunctive?

Jonathon · « **Reply #6 on:** August 03, 2005, 01:37:25 PM »

Yes. Examples of the past subjunctive:

"If I were a rich man . . ."

"If he had been there . . ."

Examples of the present subjunctive:

"It is important that he go."

"Be that as it may . . ."

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #7 on:** August 03, 2005, 02:41:43 PM »

With my chosen surname here, I should really know a lot more about this than I do.

kojabu · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2005, 05:03:19 PM »

Haha yea I was wondering if you were going to add to this thread.

Porter · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2005, 09:12:47 AM »

"If I was" is sometimes used as a past subjunctive. C. S. Lewis uses it that way.

Jonathon · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2005, 09:21:37 AM »

I would say that it's often used in place of the past subjunctive, but I wouldn't say that it's actually a form of the past subjunctive. We're simply extending the indicative mood to cover the subjunctive's territory. It simplifies our verb rules, and there's no loss in meaning. I'd guess that at some point in the future, the subjunctive will be effectively dead and gone, though it may live on in forms of the be verb for a while.

rivka · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2005, 04:43:42 PM »

Quote

. . . there's no loss in meaning.

I disagree, although I admit the distinction is subtle.

Porter · « **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2005, 10:21:40 PM »

Quote

Quote
. . . there's no loss in meaning.
I disagree, although I admit the distinction is subtle.

If everyone used the subjunctive properly, there would be a loss in meaning.

But since it's encountered incorrect more often than correct, we are all forced to glean the meaning from context.

Everybody could stop using subjunctive right now with no loss of functionality or utility in the language.

rivka · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2005, 11:52:55 PM »

I use it correctly! And so do some other people I know. If we were to stop using it, there would be a loss of meaning.

There would!

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2005, 06:39:19 AM »

Here are some "fossil phrases" that use the subjunctive:

as it were. . .
be that as it may. . .
(God) bless you!
come what may. . .
(God) damn it!
Far be it from me. . .
God save our gracious Queen; long live our noble Queen. . .
Heaven forfend/forbid. . .
so be it
suffice it to say. . .
woe betide. . .
Let there be light.

Here are some examples of subjunctive in subordiante clauses:

I move that the bill be put to a vote.
I demand that Napoleon surrender!
It is necessary that classes be cancelled.

And some hypothetical subjunctives:

Were I the President ...
If I were the King of the world...
Be he alive or be he dead ...
If I were the President ...
Had we but world enough, and time ...
Come tomorrow, I will be on that plane.
I wish I were an Oscar Mayer wiener.

There is more cool stuff about the subjunctive in other languages at the Wikipedia article whence I stole all this stuff.

Porter · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2005, 07:07:13 AM »

Quote

I use it correctly! And so do some other people I know. If we were to stop using it, there would be a loss of meaning.

There would!

No there wouldn't, because not enough people do it. When I hear you use it correctly, I can't just assume that I know what you mean by your proper usage, so I still need to decipher what it means from the context.

I would have to do the exact same thing if you used it incorrectly.

BTW, I use it correctly too. My father drilled it into all of us as kids. My father would yell out "subjunctive case*, statement contrary to fact!"

*I know that it's not a case. But that's still what he said.

Jonathon · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2005, 07:59:58 AM »

Quote

Quote
. . . there's no loss in meaning.
I disagree, although I admit the distinction is subtle.

So what's the difference in meaning between "If I was a rich man" and "If I were a rich man"?

Porter · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:04:17 AM »

Besides the first one sounding like fingernails on a chalkboard?

Jonathon · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:21:03 AM »

I'm talking strictly semantics. It's my belief think the perception of a difference in meaning is based solely on the idea that one is right and one is wrong. And if one is wrong, it can't possibly mean the same thing, right? But there's nothing intrinsic to the word were that conveys the idea of being contrary to fact.

We only have precisely one verb out of thousands and thousands that actually has a different past subjunctive form, so either we've already lost 99.99 percent of the meaning, or the regular indicative form can carry the meaning just fine.

Porter · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:22:18 AM »

Wow. I completely agree with what you just said, Jon Boy.

Annie Subjunctive · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:39:23 AM »

Quote

So what's the difference in meaning between "If I was a rich man" and "If I were a rich man"?

I think it has something to do with the difference between Topol and Gwen Stefani, which is about 150 pounds.

Jonathon · « **Reply #21 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:39:40 AM »

I must really be on a role, Porter. You've said something to that effect three or four times in the last few days.

Porter · « **Reply #22 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:42:03 AM »

Well, you were on a roll until you misspelled "roll".

Jonathon · « **Reply #23 on:** August 05, 2005, 08:42:32 AM »

>.<

I really need to get more sleep.

rivka · « **Reply #24 on:** August 05, 2005, 02:11:22 PM »

Quote

Quote
So what's the difference in meaning between "If I was a rich man" and "If I were a rich man"?
I think it has something to do with the difference between Topol and Gwen Stefani, which is about 150 pounds.

*giggle*

"If I was a rich man" implies that you think it is possible, even if not true.

"If I were a rich man" is a plaintive admission that it just ain't never gonna happen.