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Author Topic: Dear Expert  (Read 151672 times)

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Offline Marianne Dashwood

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #275 on: September 12, 2011, 06:18:58 PM »
It's probably Chinese. Everything that sounds like that ends up being Chinese.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #276 on: October 17, 2011, 01:09:51 PM »
How did we manage to get gender-specific names for every relation except for cousins?
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Offline BlackBlade

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #277 on: October 17, 2011, 02:16:27 PM »
Quote from: Tante Shvester on October 17, 2011, 01:09:51 PM
How did we manage to get gender-specific names for every relation except for cousins?
In Chinese they have 'em. In fact they differentiate between paternal and maternal cousins as well as whether that cousin is the offspring of an older or younger sibling as compared to your parents. It's very confusing.
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Offline Marianne Dashwood

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #278 on: October 17, 2011, 02:29:03 PM »
I know. It's ridiculous. Except, my Chinese friends born after the one child policy went into effect don't even know all the terms. I asked my roommate to explain all the words for cousin to me one night and she couldn't.

It helped when I learned that the phrasing changes not necessarily on whether they're on your maternal or paternal side but on whether or not they share your surname.

As far as English goes, we got the word "cousin" from the French cousin/cousine, which are marked for gender. I wonder if English originally adopted it and lost the female form at one point, or whether females weren't prominent enough to warrant having a special term just for female cousins.
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Offline Porter

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #279 on: October 17, 2011, 02:29:21 PM »
In most romantic languages you have 'em.

Well, they're as gender-specific as brother and sister are in those languages.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #280 on: October 17, 2011, 02:40:12 PM »
I honestly don't know the answer, but I think Annie's probably on the right track. Old English had words for male and female cousins, but cousin apparently pushed them out of use after the Norman conquest. Maybe English borrowed the feminine form of cousin as well but lost it when final unstressed es became silent.
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Offline BlackBlade

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #281 on: October 27, 2011, 04:06:20 PM »
Which is proper usage?

"You can make additional changes by logging into Amazon.com".

"You can make additional changes by logging in to Amazon.com".

I was certain it's the former, but I keep getting a nagging feeling.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #282 on: October 27, 2011, 04:51:33 PM »
True fact: I cannot find a rule about in to versus into in any usage or style book I own.

My take on it is this: if the in (or on) is part of a phrasal verb, I leave them separate. I'd say that you ((log in) (to Amazon)), not that you (log (into Amazon)), if that makes any sense.
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Offline rivka

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #283 on: October 27, 2011, 04:54:13 PM »
A question for the ages. Both are used; I have heard arguments for each, but if there's a consensus of any kind it's news to me.

Quote from: Jonathon on October 27, 2011, 04:51:33 PM
My take on it is this: if the in (or on) is part of a phrasal verb, I leave them separate. I'd say that you ((log in) (to Amazon)), not that you (log (into Amazon)), if that makes any sense.
I see no reason it should not be the second. The logic seems circular to me.
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Offline BlackBlade

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #284 on: October 27, 2011, 04:57:09 PM »
Interesting. So I'm free to just chose my own way for now.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #285 on: October 27, 2011, 05:02:18 PM »
Rivka: It's not circular logic—I'm not saying "it should be two words because it's two words." I'm saying that in my opinion, the syntactic structure indicates that it's two. I see log in as being a unit and to Amazon as being another unit. I can say I logged in on its own without the to Amazon part, and it's still a complete phrasal unit.

Can you give me an argument in favor of the second? I'd say, as a default rule, you shouldn't compound words unless there's a good enough reason to.
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Offline rivka

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #286 on: October 27, 2011, 05:28:42 PM »
Quote from: Jonathon on October 27, 2011, 05:02:18 PM
I'm saying that in my opinion, the syntactic structure indicates that it's two. I see log in as being a unit and to Amazon as being another unit.
I understand that. I'm just not seeing why breaking it as "log" and "into Amazon" isn't just as valid.

I happen to prefer it as "in to", by the way. I just don't see this as much evidence for going that way.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #287 on: October 27, 2011, 06:27:38 PM »
Quote from: rivka on October 27, 2011, 05:28:42 PM
Quote from: Jonathon on October 27, 2011, 05:02:18 PM
I'm saying that in my opinion, the syntactic structure indicates that it's two. I see log in as being a unit and to Amazon as being another unit.
I understand that. I'm just not seeing why breaking it as "log" and "into Amazon" isn't just as valid.

I happen to prefer it as "in to", by the way. I just don't see this as much evidence for going that way.

I thought I just explained why ((log) (into Amazon)) isn't as valid. The verb is log in. In is a particle that goes with log, not with the complement of to.

So what would you see as evidence if not a syntactic analysis?
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Offline Tante Shvester

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #288 on: October 27, 2011, 07:53:27 PM »
I'm with Jonathon on this.  You don't log anywhere; you log in.  And where are you logging in?  To Amazon!
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Offline pooka

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #289 on: October 27, 2011, 09:17:03 PM »
Log into Amazon sounds like an Ewok defense initiative.   ;)

Amazon uses the term "sign in".
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Offline Porter

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #290 on: October 28, 2011, 07:05:31 AM »
Quote
And where are you logging in?
My answer would be "Into Amazon".
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #291 on: October 28, 2011, 09:00:55 AM »
You're logging in into Amazon?
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Offline Porter

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #292 on: October 28, 2011, 09:31:50 AM »
Certainly not "To Amazon".
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #293 on: October 28, 2011, 09:36:22 AM »
Huh?
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Offline Porter

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #294 on: October 28, 2011, 11:04:47 AM »
In response to the question "And where are you logging in?", the response "To Amazon" sounds completely wrong to me, while "Into Amazon" sounds fine.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #295 on: October 28, 2011, 11:22:30 AM »
But notice that you can't ask, "Where are you logging?" The in has to go with log. And you also log out of something, rather than logging outof it. As far as I can see, the only motivation for writing "into" rather than "in to" is that there's a common preposition "into". But just because it's written as one word sometimes doesn't mean it's always one word.
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Offline Marianne Dashwood

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #296 on: October 28, 2011, 02:24:09 PM »
I'm with Jonathon here.
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Offline BlackBlade

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #297 on: October 28, 2011, 02:42:26 PM »
I'm leaning towards Jonathon on this too.
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Offline Noemon

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #298 on: October 29, 2011, 12:11:13 PM »
Yeah, me too.
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Offline Ela

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Re: Dear Expert
« Reply #299 on: October 29, 2011, 07:04:02 PM »
To comma or not to comma?

"Any special projects, programs, or services..."
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