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Author Topic: Who started saying /be?????/?  (Read 5399 times)

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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« on: January 27, 2010, 10:12:08 AM »
Why do English speakers tend to pronounce Beijing as /be?????/ instead of /be??d???/? Why don't we use the J sound that's closer to our own? /?/ doesn't exist in Chinese - is it just because it sounds more exotic to us? Or is there something about the vowel environment that makes us say it that way?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:13:13 AM by Annie Subjunctive »
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Offline Jonathon

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2010, 10:29:03 AM »
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/?/ doesn't exist in Chinese - is it just because it sounds more exotic to us?
That's probably it. People do the same thing with Arabic words with /d?/. It's not a common sound in the foreign languages that English speakers are most familiar with, while /?/ is (or at least it's much more common). So people probably subconsciously assume that it must be /d?/ is not a foreign sound, while /?/ is.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 12:58:51 PM »
I'm gonna start pronouncing algebra with a /?/. :P
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Offline sweet clementine

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2010, 01:26:55 PM »
Nice!  
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Offline rivka

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2010, 01:48:29 PM »
Silly. It's al-heb-ra -- everyone knows this! ;)
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2010, 02:48:44 PM »
I've already exoticized Target.  
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Offline Jonathon

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2010, 02:51:58 PM »
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I'm gonna start pronouncing algebra with a /?/. :P
Algebra has been a nativized English word for centuries. I'm talking about Arabic words and names that are not nativized.
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Offline pooka

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2010, 03:32:42 PM »
Like Al-Jezeera?  

I thought you were going to ask why we changed from Peking to Beijing.  I say it wrong, to be honest.  
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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2010, 04:03:59 PM »
I'm pretty sure I've heard words like jihad and hejira and the city Fallujah with a /?/.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 04:04:35 PM by Jonathon »
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Offline BlackBlade

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2010, 05:07:10 PM »
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Like Al-Jezeera?  

I thought you were going to ask why we changed from Peking to Beijing.  I say it wrong, to be honest.
Peking came from the old accepted system of romanizing Chinese words Wades/Giles.  It was a decent start, but it was a very poor system.  Pin Yin is far better and really it's only older scholars that still use Wades/Giles.  It's virtually a certainty that Peking will be dead in less than 50 years.

I think the reason people say Beijing incorrectly is that it's written as one word.  If we followed Chinese rules Beijing would be Bei Jing, Ziyi Zhang would be Zhang Zi Yi.  Hong Kong is two words, so is Bei Jing.  I'm fairly confident that if they had always split Beijing people would be saying it correctly.
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Offline Jonathon

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2010, 05:16:10 PM »
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Peking came from the old accepted system of romanizing Chinese words Wades/Giles.  It was a decent start, but it was a very poor system.  Pin Yin is far better and really it's only older scholars that still use Wades/Giles.  It's virtually a certainty that Peking will be dead in less than 50 years.
Also, it's my understanding that the two different systems are based on different dialects. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Beijing is the name in Mandarin, while (I believe) Peking is from Cantonese.
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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2010, 05:51:06 PM »
Also, Wikipedia says that the correct pronunciation is not [be????], but  [pè?t?í?].
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Offline BlackBlade

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2010, 08:42:07 PM »
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Peking came from the old accepted system of romanizing Chinese words Wades/Giles.  It was a decent start, but it was a very poor system.  Pin Yin is far better and really it's only older scholars that still use Wades/Giles.  It's virtually a certainty that Peking will be dead in less than 50 years.
Also, it's my understanding that the two different systems are based on different dialects. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Beijing is the name in Mandarin, while (I believe) Peking is from Cantonese.
That sounds accurate, my grasp of Cantonese is tenuous.  Using other words to sound out Beijing it's pronounced,

bay (as in down by the bay) jing (jingle jing).  And it's second tone than first tone.

Seeing as how Wades/Giles was supposed to map out Mandarin however, it has some pretty glaring inadequacies.  Certainly the fact that for a long time Brits and Americans could only learn Mandarin from the Cantonese people in the South informed their accents and hence their dictionaries.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2010, 08:51:33 PM »
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It's virtually a certainty that Peking will be dead in less than 50 years.
I think it will remain immortalized on Chinese restaurant menus.
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Offline BlackBlade

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2010, 09:14:31 PM »
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It's virtually a certainty that Peking will be dead in less than 50 years.
I think it will remain immortalized on Chinese restaurant menus.
Bah, I didn't even think about that, but you are right of course.

Wades/Giles is popular in Taiwan, it's on all the street signs.  That, however is purely a function of them refusing to use the mainland designed Pin Yin system.  It's also why they insist on using traditional characters as opposed to simplified.

Well, that and the fact that traditional characters are gorgeous, while simplified is a steaming pile of (insert your own undesirable here).

On a completely unrelated subject, no matter how much I kept telling myself that the cast of Firefly was butchering Mandarin, I felt partially responsible for not being able to understand them anyway.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:15:01 PM by BlackBlade »
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Offline rivka

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2010, 09:32:59 PM »
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It's virtually a certainty that Peking will be dead in less than 50 years.
I think it will remain immortalized on Chinese restaurant menus.
And cookbooks!
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2010, 05:41:16 AM »
I don't know if Peking was from Cantonese - could have been, but I know a lot of dialects use the /k/ and it's only very recently that it's disappeared from standard Mandarin. Xi An dialect, for example, still pronounces a lot of the /d?/ sounds as /k/ (Jia, jian, etc.) and I was always a little baffled why my friend from Xi An who gave me my Chinese name pronounced it mei kia - until I realized that everyone else would pronounce it mei jia. You'd find Chinese speakers all over the country who really do say something close to bei king, fu kien, nan king.

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Also, Wikipedia says that the correct pronunciation is not [be????], but [pè?t?í?].
I don't really expect English speakers to replicate the weirdness that is Mandarin consonants.
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2010, 06:11:45 AM »
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It's also why they insist on using traditional characters as opposed to simplified.
And it's communist  ;)

I guess that was another reason I dropped out of immersion chinese.  They wanted us to learn both systems of writing, and it pissed me off to be forced to learn the communist simplified characters.  
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Offline BlackBlade

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2010, 06:40:28 AM »
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It's also why they insist on using traditional characters as opposed to simplified.
And it's communist  ;)

I guess that was another reason I dropped out of immersion chinese.  They wanted us to learn both systems of writing, and it pissed me off to be forced to learn the communist simplified characters.
Eh, it's a necessary evil now.  At this conjecture so many more Chinese people use simplified characters it is really advantageous to know how to read them if you do any business in China.

I'm still trying to obtain fluency in traditional characterization, I can't tell you how giddy I am about learning simplified characters.
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Offline BlackBlade

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2010, 07:50:04 AM »
Mucus from Hatrack/Sake wanted to post this but registering is taking time apparently.

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Also, it's my understanding that the two different systems are based on different dialects. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Beijing is the name in Mandarin, while (I believe) Peking is from Cantonese.

That sounds like a plausible guess, but Cantonese would sound more like (sounding it out, don't know IPA) buc-ging which is certainly closer to Peking than Beijing but not quite. Wikipedia actually is of the opinion that Fujianese is closer by way of a different treaty port, Xiamen which predates Hong Kong. (Amoy in the later article)

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Peking came from the old accepted system of romanizing Chinese words Wades/Giles

This is actually incorrect to my surprise, Beijing in Wade-Giles should actually be Peiching not Peking.

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It's virtually a certainty that Peking will be dead in less than 50 years.

Aside from the Peking Duck example, another curious example is that Peking University despite being in Beijing itself and administered by the state has the official policy of using 'Peking University' as its name for English-language materials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peking_University

Anyways, there is also this blast from the past summary:
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Instead, we find people from Canton
saying Pakking, people from Meihsien saying Petkin, people from Amoy saying Pokking, people
from Swatow saying Pakkiii, people from Fuchow saying Pceyqking, and people from Shanghai
and Suchow saying Paqchin. It is curious that all of these pronunciations resemble our Peking
more than they do MSM Beijing. In truth, this is no mere accident or manifestation of backward
vulgarity. It is due, on the contrary, to a pattern of linguistic evolution that can be described and
dated fairly accurately.
http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/spp0...ing_beijing.pdf

A more modern article gives this helpful summary as well as a lot of other good thought
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To summarize, the variation in the form of the name of the capital of China arises from three different sources:

   * different underlying names
   * different pronounciations in different dialects of Chinese
   * different romanizations of the same pronounciation of the same name

The combinations that you are likely to run into are the following:

Beijing
   is what you get if you use the Pinyin romanization for the Mandarin pronounciation of the current official name.
Peking
   is what you get if you use the old postal system romanization, which was based either on the pronounciation in a Southern dialect or an archaic pronounciation in Mandarin of the current official name.
Peip'ing
   is what you get if you use the Wade-Giles romanization of the Mandarin pronounciation of the Nationalist name.
Peiping
   is what you get if you use the Wade-Giles romanization of the Mandarin pronounciation of the Nationalist name but drop the apostrophe.
Beiping
   is what you get if you use the Pinyin romanization of the Mandarin pronounciation of the Nationalist name.
Yenching
   is what you get if you use the Wade-Giles romanization of the Mandarin pronounciation of the old literary name.
Yenjing
   is what you get if you use a Pinyin-style folk romanization of the Mandarin pronounciation of the old literary name. This isn't the true Pinyin romanization, which would be Yanjing. I've never seen that outside of China except in scholarly contexts.
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog...ves/000583.html

Also, in the article itself I think they refer to Yanjing beer as being the most popular which I think is false being outpaced by Tsingtao beer (for good reason IMHO).
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2010, 08:12:56 AM »
They also call it Pekin in Japan. Just sayin'...

I recently started wondering if we got the name Japan from Riben. It's certainly a lot  closer than Nihon.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 08:13:05 AM by Annie Subjunctive »
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Offline BlackBlade

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2010, 08:31:05 AM »
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They also call it Pekin in Japan. Just sayin'...

I recently started wondering if we got the name Japan from Riben. It's certainly a lot  closer than Nihon.
In Japan I've heard it occasionally pronounced Nipon.  More likely Japan was some other language's best approximation that gained currency.

edit: Incidentally, Tokyo is Dong Jing (Eastern Capital) where as Bei Jing is (Northern Capital).  Nan Jing (Southern Capital) is of course the old capital of China.  I used to ask Taiwanese people were Xi Jing (Western Capital) was, they always seem to come up with humorous suggestions.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 08:33:44 AM by BlackBlade »
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2010, 12:16:45 PM »
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More likely Japan was some other language's best approximation that gained currency.
Like Riben, perhaps? :P

I only ever heard really old people say Nippon.
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Offline BlackBlade

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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2010, 01:29:16 PM »
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More likely Japan was some other language's best approximation that gained currency.
Like Riben, perhaps? :P

I only ever heard really old people say Nippon.
I'm not sure how it worked out but Ri Ben literally means, "sun's origin" or land of the rising sun.  What does Nihon or Nippon mean in Japanese?

It's very possible that if it means the same thing, that the Japanese didn't stray far from whatever the Chinese word was from Japan.

Their words for watermelon I believe are stark in their similarities.
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Offline fugu13

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Who started saying /be?????/?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2010, 01:47:22 PM »
???

:)

The wikipedia page has what looks to be a reasonable account of the name's origins.