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Offline Porter

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Foreign phrases
« on: March 03, 2009, 03:22:18 PM »
First of all, what's a better word than "foreign" to describe any language other than English, the way that foreign describes any country other than this one?  Anything other than non-English

OK, is there any difference in the English pronunciation of de jure and de jour.  Besides context, is there a way to tell which one is being said?

Until today, I never realized that those two were different phrases.  

And why oh why do people use non-English phrases like these?  It's not as though we don't have enough words already in English to keep us busy. :grumble:  Is it just to obfuscate the meaning from us hoi polloi?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 03:23:12 PM by Porter »
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2009, 03:27:13 PM »
At least in the case of the law, it's because it's so steeped in precedent and tradition.
I think Jesse's right.

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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2009, 03:30:47 PM »
Quote
According to a famous paraphrase of a quote by James D. Nicoll, "English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

Seems appropriate.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 03:31:02 PM by Neutros the Radioactive Dragon »

Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2009, 03:30:59 PM »
Also, note that it's de jure and du jour.

And one's Latin, and one's French, so they'd be pronounced differently (I presume, but then, I don't know French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_jure
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 03:31:16 PM by The Genuine »
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2009, 03:36:13 PM »
That's why I specifically asked for the English pronunciation.  I don't really care how they're pronounced in France or Lata.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2009, 03:43:15 PM »
Lata?   :wacko:


Oh, that's interesting.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LATA
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Offline saxon75

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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2009, 03:50:40 PM »
I may be pronouncing one or both incorrectly, but I when I say them, jure rhymes with "slur" and "per," while the vowel sound in jour is "oo," like the vowel in the word "who."
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Offline Jonathon

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Foreign phrases
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2009, 04:10:40 PM »
Quote
First of all, what's a better word than "foreign" to describe any language other than English, the way that foreign describes any country other than this one?  Anything other than non-English
What's wrong with foreign?


Quote
OK, is there any difference in the English pronunciation of de jure and de jour.  Besides context, is there a way to tell which one is being said?
First off, it's du jour, not de jour. Secondly, a variety of pronunciations are acceptable for either. Merriam-Webster lists the most common one for du jour as "doo ZHUR" (with a French j sound). Personally, I say "doo ZHOOR".

M-W says that de jure is most often pronounced "day JOO-ray" (with an English j) and is also pronounced "day YOO-ray", with the original Latin y sound for the j.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2009, 04:51:51 PM »
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What's wrong with foreign?
Porter doesn't like it.
I think Jesse's right.

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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 05:51:07 PM »
And to be realistic, the majority of words we use in English were, at one point another, "foreign." Where are we going to draw the line at when we stop letting them in?
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 08:02:53 PM »
Letting them in, nothing. How does that quote about English mugging other languages in alleys go?
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2009, 08:46:12 PM »
The one that Neutros gave in the third post?
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Offline Tante Shvester

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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2009, 08:47:08 PM »
Yeah, that one.  How does it go, again?
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2009, 08:51:18 PM »
Hey, it's not just me!!!
I think Jesse's right.

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Offline Tante Shvester

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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2009, 08:58:07 PM »
Chacun à son goût.   ;)  
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
Sweet! Law of Moses loopholes! -- Anneke
I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline Porter

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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2009, 09:44:32 PM »
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Where are we going to draw the line at when we stop letting them in?

Is there some benefit to using a foreign phrase instead of an already-existing English one?  If not, then what's the point?

What's wrong with "soup of the day" anyway?
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2009, 10:07:36 PM »
Here's one example: Old English had plenty of good words like cow, pig, and sheep. (Or their Old English counterparts of course) and we adopted the "foreign" (Norman) words boeuf, porc and mouton. In French they still only have one word for the animal and its meat, but since we adopted these foreign synonyms, we now have these lovely nuanced words beef pork and mutton and we can say something like "sheep meat" much more succinctly and elegantly.

"Soup of the day" has a different connotation than "soup du jour," don't you think? Isn't one more elegant, conveying a sense of fine dining culture (even if it's not always used that way anymore)? It's subtle, yes, but it's that subtle nuance and our huge vocabulary that makes English beautiful.

Not to mention the fact that a well-read English speaker also has a mastery of a lot of basic foreign phrases and has that much more the advantage when communicating in another language. We had Anglo-Saxon ways to say information, pensive and ridiculous before the Normans showed up, and I'm sure we would communicate just fine if we still used them. But now, any student of French can tell you how handy it is to be able to read a foreign text and not have to look up ever single instance of information, pensif and ridicule. Any student of a non-cognate language can tell you how much more difficult it is to achieve literacy when you don't have that advantage.

The human brain is capable of absorbing and using a lot more information than we give it credit for. Why limit ourselves in the name of efficiency when willingly educating ourselves can open up so many realms of opportunity? I promise you that none of the foreign words you've acquired over the years are sitting there wasting valuable storage space in your cerebral cortex.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2009, 10:07:41 PM »
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What's wrong with "soup of the day" anyway?
My goodness!  Nothing at all!  I entirely support the Soup of the Day movement, and advocate for national standards.

Today is Wednesday, March 4th and the soup of the day is Split Pea with Barley.

They could announce it on the radio.
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
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I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline rivka

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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2009, 10:27:25 PM »
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The one that Neutros gave in the third post?
>.<

 :blush:

Have I mentioned that it's been a long day?
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Offline goofy

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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2009, 07:41:42 AM »
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What's wrong with "soup of the day" anyway?
What's wrong ungeradlic with it is that soup is a foreign ælfremd word. What's wrong ungeradlic with "gereord of the day" anyway?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 07:54:55 AM by goofy »

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2009, 08:13:05 AM »
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Is there some benefit to using a foreign phrase instead of an already-existing English one?  If not, then what's the point?
Obviously the answer is yes, since people do find reasons to use foreign phrases. Sometimes it's to sound more educated and refined, and sometimes it's to communicate a slightly different meaning. Consider the English/French/Latin words kingly/royal/regal, all of which have essentially the same denotative meaning but somewhat different connotations.
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2009, 08:16:40 AM »
Quote
Quote
The one that Neutros gave in the third post?
>.<

 :blush:

Have I mentioned that it's been a long day?
 :lol:

I think I did the same thing with one of your posts recently.

Or several... :blush:  

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2009, 08:28:38 AM »
Quote
Quote
What's wrong with "soup of the day" anyway?
What's wrong ungeradlic with it is that soup is a foreign ælfremd word. What's wrong ungeradlic with "gereord of the day" anyway?
It sometimes surprises me to find out which words are borrowings. I wouldn't have suspected that wrong was not from Old English, but I guess Old Norse words are tricky like that sometimes.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2009, 08:32:19 AM »
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"Soup of the day" has a different connotation than "soup du jour," don't you think?
I really don't.   Except that the second indicates that the speaker thinks that French == elegant.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2009, 08:41:08 AM »
Even if it does not connote elegance to you, you are aware that it connotes elegance to some people.
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