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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 08:44:39 AM »
And I would say that it's not just connoting "French makes me sound refined," it's connoting a nice restaurant, because culturally nice restaurants would use phrases like soupe du jour because French dining was seen as the hallmark of refined dining.

It's not just affected snobbery - it's a response to subtle changes in culture.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2009, 08:57:14 AM »
"Waitress, what is the soup du jour?"

"Oh, that's just soup of the day."


Once we have a nationalized soup system, the soup du jour won't just be de facto, it will be de jure!
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 09:18:26 AM »
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"Waitress, what is the soup du jour?"

"Oh, that's just soup of the day."
:lol:
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Offline pooka

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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2009, 12:26:50 PM »
I'm reminded of that exchange between the dalek and the cyberman about daleks having no concept of elegance.  

I'd go with the argument that the word "soup" is French so there's nothing wrong with "soup du jour".  Unless that isn't the case.  
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2009, 12:34:46 PM »
Soup is an English word.

You know how I know?

Because you don't have to italicize it.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2009, 12:40:46 PM »
"Soup du jour" is also English by that standard, as is "de jure".
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2009, 01:10:22 PM »
The Blue Book (legal citation manual) rule 7(b) says

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Italicize non-English words or phrases unless they have been incorporated into common English usage.  Latin words and phrases that are often used in legal writing are considered to be in common English usage and should not be italicized.  However, very long Latin phrases and obsolete or uncommon Latin words and phrases should remain italicized.  For example:

vin de table

ignorantia legis neminem excusat

sero sed serio

ex dolo malo non oritur action

The Book goes on to say one shouldn't capitalize things such as e.g., i.e., res judicata, quid pro quo, amicus curiae, certiorari,  corpus juris, ab initio, obiter dictum, de jure, modus operandi, habeas corpus, non obstante verdicto, prima facie, mens rea, and en banc.

Oddly, it didn't mention du jour.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2009, 01:29:22 PM »
Probably because it's neither Latin nor a legal term.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2009, 05:41:55 PM »
So, we're all agreed that Porter is both wrong and full of it.
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Offline saxon75

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« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2009, 08:51:34 PM »
Well that goes without saying.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2009, 11:57:40 PM »
Can one be wrong in a conversation like this? I'm sure a lot of us can say we disagree with you but we can't say "Porter is full of it. He doesn't actually think that English would be better off without so many foreign loanwords."
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 11:57:52 PM by Annie Subjunctive »
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Offline saxon75

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« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2009, 08:31:17 AM »


Yes we can!
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2009, 10:28:59 AM »
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Can one be wrong in a conversation like this? I'm sure a lot of us can say we disagree with you but we can't say "Porter is full of it. He doesn't actually think that English would be better off without so many foreign loanwords."
So, now you think I'm wrong and full of it. :P
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Offline Kama

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« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2009, 12:56:27 PM »
on the other hand, think of all the poor languages that need to accomodate all the new English words.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2009, 05:25:02 PM »
Is English coming into these languages because the langauges don't have adequate words for the ideas, or because English is the lingua franca and therefore somewhat cool?
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2009, 06:19:09 PM »
Yes.
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2009, 06:51:55 PM »
As Rivka said, some of both. New concepts from American culture are borrowed into foreign cultures, and rather than coin new words for them, they often borrow the English term. Also, sometimes things are borrowed just because people think it's cool.  
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2009, 08:07:04 PM »
And then there are the weird adaptations of English loan words. In Hebrew, the back axle of a car is the "bek eksel". The front axle, however, is called "bek eksel kadmi" -- front 'back axle'.
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Offline Kama

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« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2009, 11:03:42 AM »
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Is English coming into these languages because the langauges don't have adequate words for the ideas, or because English is the lingua franca and therefore somewhat cool?

yes, but I'd say mostly the first two reasons. Consider the IT sector. It is full of English words, because IT work is done in English, and there isn't neither time nor will to translate the terms into all the other languages. IT people think in English. The cool factor has nothing to do with this. Same with a lot of other professional fields.

The cool factor comes into play with youth-oriented products, mostly.  
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2009, 11:17:19 AM »
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Can one be wrong in a conversation like this?
Depends.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2009, 11:41:46 AM »
I love the back axel!

I like when they translate the meaning of the word instead of adopting it - what do they call that phenomenon? Like in German, they say Fernsehen (far see) for television - so they just translated the word piece-for-piece instead of adopting it.

My favorite foreign translation is computer... in Japanese it's just konpyuutaa, (or pasokon, which is short for paasonaru konpyuutaa) but in Chinese it's dian nao - electric brain. I think we should start calling it an electric brain ourselves.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 11:43:47 AM by Annie Subjunctive »
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Offline rivka

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« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2009, 12:01:47 PM »
In Hebrew it's also electric brain.
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Offline Kama

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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2009, 12:06:42 PM »
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what do they call that phenomenon?

calque
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2009, 02:04:39 PM »
Yes! Calques rock.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2009, 02:07:29 PM »
From the Wikipedia article:
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# English long time no see calques simplified Chinese: ????; traditional Chinese: ????; pinyin: h?o ji? bu jiàn [5], via Chinese Pidgin English[6].
I was totally wondering that! I learned the phrase h?o ji? bu jiàn this week and was thinking "funny, this literally means "long time no see."
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