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Author Topic: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...  (Read 216971 times)

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Offline Keith

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1125 on: March 01, 2016, 11:06:18 AM »
I had to go looking, because I couldn't figure out how to say them differently.

That's how I felt when I first learned about the cot–caught merger.

Even after reading a blog just now on the cot-caught merger, I'm having trouble hearing any  difference in my head.  I'll have to seek out some audio later.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1126 on: March 01, 2016, 11:39:31 AM »
If they sound not quite right, it's probably because a following /r/ tends to change the vowel a little. But those are the vowel symbols a phonologist would use to transcribe them.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1127 on: March 01, 2016, 11:42:22 AM »
Even after reading a blog just now on the cot-caught merger, I'm having trouble hearing any difference in my head.  I'll have to seek out some audio later.

It might help to know that in British English, caught and court are homophonous. In American dialects without the merger, they'd only be distinguished by the /r/ (and the slight effect the /r/ has on the vowel).
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Offline rivka

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1128 on: March 01, 2016, 05:36:52 PM »
If they sound not quite right, it's probably because a following /r/ tends to change the vowel a little.
Precisely.

Even after reading a blog just now on the cot-caught merger, I'm having trouble hearing any  difference in my head.  I'll have to seek out some audio later.
Not sure if this helps, but cot rhymes with hot, and caught rhymes with fraught.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1129 on: March 01, 2016, 08:02:00 PM »
In Utah, all four of those rhyme.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1130 on: March 01, 2016, 09:05:57 PM »
In New York, broad and sword rhyme.  I found out that this is not true everywhere else when I took a literature class in North Carolina.
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Offline rivka

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1131 on: March 01, 2016, 09:52:53 PM »
In Utah, all four of those rhyme.
I was afraid of that.

In New York, broad and sword rhyme. 
Oh, now that's almost as wrong as the Mary/marry/merry thing.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1132 on: March 02, 2016, 04:45:05 AM »
I the New York accent, sword is a homophone  with sawed.
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
Sweet! Law of Moses loopholes! -- Anneke
I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline rivka

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1133 on: March 02, 2016, 08:33:18 AM »
I am aware. *shudder*
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1134 on: March 07, 2016, 12:45:56 PM »
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline rivka

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1135 on: March 07, 2016, 01:55:48 PM »
That was too painful.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1136 on: April 25, 2016, 08:23:08 AM »
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Offline Nighthawk

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1137 on: April 28, 2016, 10:05:02 PM »
Edit: I'm an idiot.  :p
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1138 on: April 29, 2016, 08:01:30 AM »
If by "new" you mean four years old, then yes. ;)
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Offline Porter

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1139 on: April 29, 2016, 10:12:08 AM »
I'm happy that it won. I've been boosting it for several years now.
I hadn't read that article, and I found it interesting that you used to be plural, but has since become plural and singular.

I find it especially interesting because while speaking Portuguese on my mission, I became accustomed to having different words for second person singular and plural.  Because of this, I adopted the second person plural y'all, even though it had never been part of my personal lexicon before.

Language change giveth and taketh away.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1140 on: April 29, 2016, 10:36:00 AM »
I just assumed that you picked up y'all from growing up in Texas (or was it Oklahoma?).

I find it really interesting to see how different European languages have dealt with the whole singular-plural/formal-informal thing with second-person pronouns. In English the singular became so informal that it became pejorative, so it disappeared. In French they simply use the plural as a formal pronoun. In Spanish they have separate singular and plural forms for formal and informal, though I've heard that different dialects of Spanish do things differently. In German they used to use the second-person plural as a formal pronoun, but then it gave way to using the third-person plural as a formal pronoun, so formal "you", whether it's to one person or more than one, is actually "they".

So what does Portuguese do?
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1141 on: April 29, 2016, 10:36:52 AM »
Language change giveth and taketh away.

By the way, I really like that. I think I'll have to steal it.
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Offline Porter

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1142 on: April 29, 2016, 12:19:55 PM »
Quote
I just assumed that you picked up y'all from growing up in Texas (or was it Oklahoma?).
I grew up in both TX and OK, but I never said "y'all" until after coming back from Brazil.

In (Brazilian) Portuguese, they have a singular você and plural vocês.  I believe that those started out as the formal pronouns, but the language only has vestigial remnants of the informal ones, similar to how thou is and isn't part of English anymore.  It seems mostly relegated to scripturesque speech and love notes.

BTW, I always have a tough time typing out Portuguese.  Not only is the Portuguese portuges easier to spell, but Portuguese doesn't treat such words as proper nouns needing capitalization.  They'll capitalize the actual name of a place, not not derivative words.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1143 on: April 29, 2016, 12:26:26 PM »
They have similar capitalization practices in France. "France" would be capitalized, but not "français".
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1144 on: April 29, 2016, 02:18:26 PM »

I find it really interesting to see how different European languages have dealt with the whole singular-plural/formal-informal thing with second-person pronouns. In English the singular became so informal that it became pejorative, so it disappeared. In French they simply use the plural as a formal pronoun. In Spanish they have separate singular and plural forms for formal and informal, though I've heard that different dialects of Spanish do things differently. In German they used to use the second-person plural as a formal pronoun, but then it gave way to using the third-person plural as a formal pronoun, so formal "you", whether it's to one person or more than one, is actually "they".


Yeah, Spanish does it a lot of different ways. and usted are pretty universal for informal and formal, with ustedes as the plural in most cases. Then in some dialects there's a informal plural - vosotros. Then in some dialects there's a singular that's even less formal than : vos. So in my husband's family, for example, is sort of kind of formal, like you'd use it for your parents but sometimes also for strangers, usted is so formal that the only time they really use it is at church where that's kind of become a pan-Hispanic Mormon way to refer to fellow church members, and then vos is how you would address your kids or someone you were angry with.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1145 on: April 29, 2016, 03:52:41 PM »
Wait, vos is less formal than ? That don't make no sense.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1146 on: April 29, 2016, 04:10:26 PM »
Wait, vos is less formal than ? That don't make no sense.

I know, right? But it is.
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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1147 on: May 04, 2016, 11:13:08 AM »
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline rivka

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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1148 on: May 04, 2016, 11:37:00 AM »
 :D
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Re: Funny English and Linguistics stuff...
« Reply #1149 on: May 06, 2016, 08:59:20 AM »
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!