GalacticCactus Forum

Author Topic: Language Guardians  (Read 8367 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Porter

  • ruining funny with facts
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,329
  • long time lurker, first time poster
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2008, 10:40:13 PM »
*taps sarcastometer*
Tomorrow Poster
Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline dkw

  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,016
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2008, 09:23:27 AM »
Quote
Unless the signage contained some evidence that the author knew and preferred archaic spellings, then I'd say that ignorance is the simpler explanation.
 
How old is the sign?  The article just said that it was a historic sign -- is it possible it was written in a time when that spelling would have been more common?

Offline Noemon

  • Arbiter of Cool
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,059
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2008, 10:40:59 AM »
That had been my assumption.
I wish more people were able to be like me. 
-Porter

I'm about perfect.
-pooka

I hope you have a wonderful adventure in Taiwan. Not a swashbuckling adventure, just a prawn flavored pringles adventure.

-pooka

Offline Porter

  • ruining funny with facts
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,329
  • long time lurker, first time poster
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2008, 11:26:23 AM »
Tomorrow Poster
Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2008, 11:59:49 AM »
Quote
Quote
Unless the signage contained some evidence that the author knew and preferred archaic spellings, then I'd say that ignorance is the simpler explanation.
 
How old is the sign?  The article just said that it was a historic sign -- is it possible it was written in a time when that spelling would have been more common?
This article says it's 60 years old. And from my limited research, it appears that the spelling "emenese" was never exactly common. A search of the entirety of the OED turns up one entry by Caxton in 1490. Google Books shows just over 400 hits, compared with 150,000 for "immense," though I don't know how much you can judge by that.  
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2008, 12:01:15 PM »
Quote
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7595509.stm
That list just made me sad. Those are the best examples of grammar rules being flouted? The article certainly got one thing right—grammar just ain't what it used to be.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline goofy

  • Veteran Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
    • http://
Language Guardians
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2008, 12:56:21 PM »
Quote
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7595509.stm
I love how an editor has had to add a bunch of notes correcting a lot of the misconceptions.  

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2008, 01:26:05 PM »
But not nearly enough of them, in my opinion.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Annie Subjunctive

  • Hausfrau
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,921
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2008, 02:47:57 PM »
Quote
I would assume that the author of the sign chose that spelling because that's how the words sounds and she didn't know the standard spelling, not because she was relying on established historical spelling.
This is why I still don't agree with people using the word orientate. It may be a valid word, but they're not using it because they know it's a valid word. They're using it because they're back-forming it from orientation.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline Annie Subjunctive

  • Hausfrau
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,921
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2008, 02:53:25 PM »
Quote
20. Stadiums, as a plural of stadium, rather than stadia.
C. Matthews, Birmingham, UK

NOTE: Fowler's says that when dealing with modern sports grounds, rather than ones from the classical world, the plural is "stadiums".
Does this apply to syllabus as well? I've heard about 47 people refer to "syllabi" this week.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline Tante Shvester

  • Souper Member
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9,859
    • View Profile
    • About Tante
Language Guardians
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2008, 02:55:26 PM »
I can't stand when people talk about the city buses.  The correct plural is city bi.
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
Sweet! Law of Moses loopholes! -- Anneke
I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2008, 05:17:12 PM »
Quote
Quote
I would assume that the author of the sign chose that spelling because that's how the words sounds and she didn't know the standard spelling, not because she was relying on established historical spelling.
This is why I still don't agree with people using the word orientate. It may be a valid word, but they're not using it because they know it's a valid word. They're using it because they're back-forming it from orientation.
I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. Back-formation is a valid way to form words, sort of like how back-form is back-formed from back-formation. ;) And I disagree about people's motivations. Most people have no idea about morphological processes, at least not consciously. People use words because they hear them being used, not because they've studied the processes for word formation in Latin and English.

And anyway, it's not clear that it's a back-formation as opposed to a regular derivation of orient + -ate. I think the original reason why it became a prescriptivist bugbear in the US is that we've developed this notion that if we have two words that mean the same thing and have similar forms, but one has more syllables, then the longer one must be wrong.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #37 on: September 04, 2008, 05:22:04 PM »
Quote
Quote
20. Stadiums, as a plural of stadium, rather than stadia.
C. Matthews, Birmingham, UK

NOTE: Fowler's says that when dealing with modern sports grounds, rather than ones from the classical world, the plural is "stadiums".
Does this apply to syllabus as well? I've heard about 47 people refer to "syllabi" this week.
I'm not sure how modern sports grounds relate to syllabuses, but many nouns of Latin and Greek origin can form the plural two ways, like appendixes versus appendices. Some fields may prefer one form over the other, though.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline goofy

  • Veteran Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
    • View Profile
    • http://
Language Guardians
« Reply #38 on: September 04, 2008, 06:47:08 PM »
Quote
I can't stand when people talk about the city buses.  The correct plural is city bi.
bus is from omnibus, which is alread a plural in Latin, it's the plural dative of omnis. So in fact the word has no singular, which mean we shouldn't refer to long motor vehicles for carrying passengers in the singular. I've noticed that many people talk about one bus, but this is wrong, meaningless, and offends the senses.

Offline rivka

  • Linguistic Anarchist
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,098
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #39 on: September 04, 2008, 06:57:08 PM »
Quote
Quote
20. Stadiums, as a plural of stadium, rather than stadia.
C. Matthews, Birmingham, UK

NOTE: Fowler's says that when dealing with modern sports grounds, rather than ones from the classical world, the plural is "stadiums".
Does this apply to syllabus as well? I've heard about 47 people refer to "syllabi" this week.
Make that 48.

*waves*
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
-Aaron Kunin

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #40 on: September 04, 2008, 07:01:06 PM »
Quote
bus is from omnibus, which is alread a plural in Latin, it's the plural dative of omnis. So in fact the word has no singular, which mean we shouldn't refer to long motor vehicles for carrying passengers in the singular. I've noticed that many people talk about one bus, but this is wrong, meaningless, and offends the senses.
Also, I'm pretty sure that it should be 'bus, not bus.  
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline rivka

  • Linguistic Anarchist
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,098
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #41 on: September 04, 2008, 07:04:28 PM »
?
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
-Aaron Kunin

Offline Brinestone

  • Nerdkins
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 6,232
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2008, 08:11:30 PM »
Quote
But not nearly enough of them, in my opinion.
No joke. That article was annoying.
Ephemerality is not binary. -Porter

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2008, 08:28:41 PM »
Quote
?
I take it you loved the sarcasm?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 08:29:05 PM by Jonathon »
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Tante Shvester

  • Souper Member
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9,859
    • View Profile
    • About Tante
Language Guardians
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2008, 08:49:17 PM »
So, bus is always plural, like pants and panties and scissors?  Except, I guess pants and panties and scissors always come in pairs.  If you break up a pair of panties into one panty and another panty, well, you've probably had a very exciting evening.
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
Sweet! Law of Moses loopholes! -- Anneke
I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2008, 08:55:08 PM »
Quote
So, bus is always plural . . . ?
No. Bus is and always has been treated as a singular form in English.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline Tante Shvester

  • Souper Member
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9,859
    • View Profile
    • About Tante
Language Guardians
« Reply #46 on: September 04, 2008, 09:01:58 PM »
Well, what about Latin panties, then?
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
Sweet! Law of Moses loopholes! -- Anneke
I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline Jonathon

  • Evil T-Rex
  • Administrator
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 24,649
  • This is the darkest timeline
    • View Profile
    • GalacticCactus
Language Guardians
« Reply #47 on: September 04, 2008, 09:10:11 PM »
You'll have to ask someone who knows Latin.
You underestimate my ability to take things seriously!

Offline rivka

  • Linguistic Anarchist
  • Übermember
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,098
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2008, 09:16:06 PM »
Quote
Quote
?
I take it you loved the sarcasm?
It's a buss.  
"Sometimes you need a weirdo to tell you that things have gotten weird. Your normal friends, neighbors, and coworkers won’t tell you."
-Aaron Kunin

Offline Zalmoxis

  • Chief Bloviator
  • Super Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,064
    • View Profile
Language Guardians
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2008, 07:18:56 AM »
Hee-hee. These guys got the Stuff White People Like treatment.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 07:19:28 AM by Zalmoxis »
Zwei Aufgaben des Lebensanfangs: Deinen Kreis immer mehr einschränken und immer wieder nachprüfen, ob du dich nicht irgendwo außerhalb deines Kreises versteckt hältst. (Kafka)