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Author Topic: Pronouns  (Read 9937 times)

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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2008, 03:45:56 PM »
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Quote from: The Genuine,March 26, 2008, 4:06 PM
"Email probably because it's fitting with a style that never uses a small word when there's a bigger one available.
 :D



Actually, I just thought that the rhyme of Lee and me was awkward.
I think Jesse's right.

 -- Jonathon

Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2008, 07:30:55 PM »
What's preferred:  elaborated on or elaborated upon?

I don't know.  Jon Boy might, though.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2008, 07:32:23 PM »
Crap.  That has nothing to do with pronouns.  Well, I guess the "what" and the "I."
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2008, 08:05:45 PM »
I've never heard of a preference either way. Google gives 609,000 hits for "elaborated on" versus 222,000 for "elaborated upon." Both sound perfectly fine to me.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2008, 09:41:31 AM »
I fear that "upon" is going the way of the dodo.  Unless you need an extra syllable for a poem, what's the diff with "on"?
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2008, 12:00:05 PM »
Why do you think it's going to disappear? I don't see any evidence that it's on the verg of extinction. The OED says this:
Quote
Originally denoting elevation as well as contact, the compound has from the earliest period of its occurrence so far lost the former implication, that is, it has been regularly employed as a simple equivalent of on, in all the varieties of meaning which that preposition has developed. The use of the one form or the other has been for the most part a matter of individual choice (on grounds of rhythm, emphasis, etc.) or of simple accident, although in certain contexts and phrases there may be a general tendency to prefer the one to the other.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2008, 04:26:35 PM »
I see it less amongst younger writers and speakers except when used for cadence.
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 -- Jonathon

Offline Icarus

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« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2008, 06:53:27 PM »
Is it "The security guards will find whomever broke into the store" or "The security guards will find whoever broke into the store?"

(I have one answer, someone else has a different one. I await all y'all's input.)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 06:54:03 PM by Icarus »

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2008, 07:20:59 PM »
The traditional answer is that if whoever serves as a subject of one clause, then that trumps its role as the object of another. Thus the latter is preferred.
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Offline Icarus

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« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2008, 07:24:34 PM »
Interesting. It sounds like you're saying neither is wrong.

Can you, by chance, document that answer?

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2008, 07:54:34 PM »
According to a traditional prescriptive standard, one is right and the other is wrong. According to descriptive standard, both exist in free variation and both are standard.

Here's an entry from The Columbia Guide to Standard American English, but I don't think it's entirely clear. Just google "whoever whomever" and you'll find lots of sites like this one.  
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Offline Icarus

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« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2008, 08:02:18 PM »
Ah, gotcha. Thanks. :)

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2008, 08:03:21 PM »
No problem. So which one did you think was right?
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Offline Icarus

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« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2008, 08:50:31 PM »
When I first saw it, I had completely overlooked that it was the subject of "broke into the store." So I thought it should be "whom." When I had it pointed out to me that it was also a subject, I was thrown. :)

Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2008, 05:42:57 PM »
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"Who is it?"

"It is I."

or

"It is me."

?
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 -- Jonathon

Offline Porter

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« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2008, 06:23:58 PM »
It's me.

After all, you wouldn't say "It is he." instead of "It is him.", would you?
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Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2008, 06:26:41 PM »
I'm inclined to agree with you, since "me" is a direct object and not a subject like "I" is.  But someone today told I me was wrong for doing that.
I think Jesse's right.

 -- Jonathon

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2008, 06:35:10 PM »
It depends on whether or not you want to sound stilted. ;)

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage has an excellent entry on the matter, but it's a little longish. If you want something between a one-sentence and one-page answer, I'd be happy to give one.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2008, 06:42:23 PM »
Well, skimming that article I must agree with the sentiment that "[me] feels right in that position."

But I'd love to read your condensed answer since I ain't reading that whole thing.

Cool to know that a free, scanned version of that dictionary is out there though.  I've never checked out Google Books before.
I think Jesse's right.

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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2008, 06:49:27 PM »
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I'm inclined to agree with you, since "me" is a direct object and not a subject like "I" is.  But someone today told I me was wrong for doing that.
Actually, it's not a direct object—it's a subject complement.
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2008, 06:57:23 PM »
Never heard of that.  I got the same impression—that I was wrong in my characterization of "me" as a direct object—from the M-W article.

They don't teach you about those things in high school.  What are they?
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Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2008, 07:28:29 PM »
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Never heard of that.  I got the same impression—that I was wrong in my characterization of "me" as a direct object—from the M-W article.
I'd have to say you got the wrong impression, then. The last paragraph of the entry says,

Quote
Clearly, both the it is I and it's me patterns are in reputable use and have been for a considerable time. It is I tends to be used in more formal or more stuffy situations; it's me predominates in real and fictional speech and in a more relaxed writing style. Him, her, us, and them may be less common after the verb to be than me is, but they are far from rare and are equally good.

Here's the short version of the debate: It is me is the newer form, and it is apparently first attested in the 16th century. Both it is I and it is me have existed side by side since then, though in the early 18th century some people started to object to it is me (namely Bishop Lowth, who also railed against split infinitives and other perfectly standard and grammatical constructions).

Some argue for it is I on grammatical grounds; because I is a complement to the subject it, it should be in the same case (the subject or nominative case). Or so the argument goes. Of course, there's several hundred years of evidence against this argument; English speakers use object pronouns instead of subject pronouns in a lot of different constructions.

In sum, though some misinformed people may give you a bad time about it, it is perfectly okay to use it is me.

Quote
They don't teach you about those things in high school.  What are they?
What are subject complements? That's basically just the term for the thing that comes after a linking verb that describes the subject of a sentence, as in I am Jonathon or I feel well. A direct object is the complement of the verb rather than the subject.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 08:43:00 PM by Jonathon »
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2008, 08:18:33 PM »
So "well," as used in your last example, is a noun and not a verb?

Anyway, the distinction about complimenting a verb rather than a subject still isn't clear to me.  A noun and a verb are both always needed to form a sentence, right?  So how do you distinguish?

"I threw the ball."  The ball is both what I did something to and also the object of my doing.

"It is I."  I am both what it is and also the thing that is.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 08:20:56 PM by The Genuine »
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Offline The Genuine

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« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2008, 08:19:31 PM »
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I'd have to say you got the wrong impression, then.
What I meant was that I got the same impression from you as I did from the article.
I think Jesse's right.

 -- Jonathon

Offline Jonathon

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« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2008, 08:42:21 PM »
Uh, wait. I think I misread you or something. You are correct that me is not a direct object in it is me.

In that example, well is an adjective, not a noun or a verb. It describes, or complements, the subject of the sentence, I. Subject complements can be either nouns or adjectives. Objects can only be nouns. An object receives the action of the verb, while with a subject complement there is no action.

One way to distinguish between an object and a subject complement is to make the sentence passive. The ball was thrown by me works perfectly well, but I am been by me obviously does not.

Clear as mud?
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