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Offline theCrowsWife

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« Reply #200 on: December 06, 2007, 03:45:19 PM »
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The act of seeing is literal too.  :P

And I think anyone reading it would take "literally" to have wide scope over the clause, so I don't think anyone is going to have trouble understanding it. Such is the beauty of adverbs.
I didn't say it was incorrect or that people would misunderstand it, I said I would remove it. It doesn't sound professional to me at all.

Besides, adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing.  :P

--Mel

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« Reply #201 on: December 06, 2007, 03:48:01 PM »
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Besides, adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing.  :P
 :blink:

Really? Why in the world do you think that?
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #202 on: December 06, 2007, 04:22:17 PM »
Using words is the sign of lazy writing.

Just try and say something without them.  It's really tough.

*gesticulates madly*

See what I mean?

Offline rivka

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« Reply #203 on: December 06, 2007, 06:38:07 PM »
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I think I broke the habit in only a few weeks.
Ditto.
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Offline Noemon

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« Reply #204 on: December 07, 2007, 06:14:55 AM »
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The act of seeing is literal too.  :P

 
Not for the blind!
I wish more people were able to be like me. 
-Porter

I'm about perfect.
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I hope you have a wonderful adventure in Taiwan. Not a swashbuckling adventure, just a prawn flavored pringles adventure.

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Offline theCrowsWife

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« Reply #205 on: December 07, 2007, 07:04:44 AM »
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Quote
Besides, adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing.  :P
:blink:

Really? Why in the world do you think that?
In fiction. Adverbs are often used with weak verbs, when often there is an actual verb that means the same thing as the verb-adverb pair. Or they're used paired with the word "said" as a way to state how a character is feeling, when that should have been established in other ways (behavior, thoughts if we're in that character's POV, prior history, etc).

Adverbs are easy ways to add detail, which means that they tend to get overused in fiction. Many writers (especially beginners) will improve their prose if they get rid of as many of them as they can, as long as they don't go to ridiculous lengths to avoid them. Sometimes an adverb really is the best choice, but it's a lot less frequently than many people believe.

--Mel

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« Reply #206 on: December 07, 2007, 08:04:40 AM »
I think the problem there is unclarity and overuse, not the adverbs themselves. Just because something is overused by bad writers doesn't mean it's always (or even often) a bad thing for good writers. I'd also say that just because it might help a novice writer to get rid of them doesn't mean it's a good idea for everyone to do the same.

And, of course, here's a relevant Language Log link that says it all better than I could.

Quote
There are techniques that could be effective.  A piano student who's inclined to overuse the sustain pedal -- it can cover a lot of finger sins -- might be told to play some pieces without the sustain pedal, either a few times or for some period, after which the sustain pedal is reintroduced.  Similarly a sports player who's inclined to favor one particular move very heavily might be told not to use it, either for one practice or for some period, after which the ban is lifted.  The aim is to expand a repertoire.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 08:22:22 AM by Jonathon »
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Offline theCrowsWife

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« Reply #207 on: December 07, 2007, 09:00:44 AM »
Yes, that would be why I said that adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing, not that they always are. I also said that "Sometimes an adverb really is the best choice, but it's a lot less frequently than many people believe."

Unclarity and overuse. I don't see where we are actually disagreeing here.

I would still remove "literally" from the posted bio, though. It sounds very unprofessional to me.

--Mel

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« Reply #208 on: December 07, 2007, 09:07:18 AM »
I disagree that adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing. I think that's far too broad a statement.
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Offline theCrowsWife

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« Reply #209 on: December 07, 2007, 10:58:48 AM »
Even with the caveat that I'm speaking of fiction writing?

--Mel

Offline Porter

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« Reply #210 on: December 07, 2007, 11:07:10 AM »
Can you point me to any fiction that doesn't use adverbs?

If all fiction uses adverbs, than the presence of adverbs in fiction isn't a sign of anything.
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« Reply #211 on: December 07, 2007, 11:55:09 AM »
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Even with the caveat that I'm speaking of fiction writing?

--Mel
I don't see why fiction writing is that special or different.
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Offline theCrowsWife

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« Reply #212 on: December 07, 2007, 01:20:45 PM »
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Can you point me to any fiction that doesn't use adverbs?

If all fiction uses adverbs, than the presence of adverbs in fiction isn't a sign of anything.
That's false logic. An irregularly shaped mole can be a sign of skin cancer, but pointing at cancer-free patients who have a lot of moles and saying that therefore moles are meaningless for predicting cancer is pretty ludicrous.

Now granted, in my first statement, I was being a bit flip (hence the sticking-out-of-tongue). However, I did clarify several times that I was referring to excessive usage, and I never stated that ever using an adverb was wrong. They just tend to be used as shortcuts by writers. (And I'm not saying that shortcuts are always bad either; everything has a time and a place.)

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I don't see why fiction writing is that special or different.

Not special, but different, in that every form of writing has different rules and guidelines. They all have different purposes and audiences, after all. If I pick up a user manual, I expect the information I need to be easy to find and understand, and thorough enough to answer my question. When I pick up a novel, I expect to be immersed in an interesting story with interesting characters.

I could list off quite a few "rules" for fiction writing that, if followed, will generally improve a writer's prose. That's not to say that someone who thoroughly understands the rules and why they exist can't break them; on the contrary, judiciously breaking the rules is often necessary in great writing. However, the new writer who breaks them out of ignorance usually will find that their prose is better if the rules are followed.

--Mel

Offline Porter

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« Reply #213 on: December 07, 2007, 01:26:09 PM »
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That's false logic. An irregularly shaped mole can be a sign of skin cancer, but pointing at cancer-free patients who have a lot of moles and saying that therefore moles are meaningless for predicting cancer is pretty ludicrous.
If all humans had moles, then the existence of moles on an individual would not be a sign of anything.



Quote
Now granted, in my first statement, I was being a bit flip (hence the sticking-out-of-tongue). However, I did clarify several times that I was referring to excessive usage, and I never stated that ever using an adverb was wrong.
OK.  If you throw in the word "excessive", then it's a totally different situation.  Just like irregularly-shaped moles could be useful for predicting cancer while the mer presence of moles wouldn't be, excessive adverbs can be a sign of poor writing while adverbs in general aren't.

Of course, it's practically a tautology that excessive anything is bad.

edit:  I removed where I said it was a false analogy.  'Cuz it's not.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 02:32:22 PM by Porteiro »
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Online Jonathon

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« Reply #214 on: December 07, 2007, 01:33:09 PM »
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That's false logic. An irregularly shaped mole can be a sign of skin cancer, but pointing at cancer-free patients who have a lot of moles and saying that therefore moles are meaningless for predicting cancer is pretty ludicrous.
Your original statement sounds to me like saying that since some moles are cancerous, moles in general are often a sign of cancer.

Again, I disagree with the notion that adverbs in general tend to be shortcuts. Adverbs as a part of speech are a much broader and more essential category than most people realize, I think.

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I could list off quite a few "rules" for fiction writing that, if followed, will generally improve a writer's prose.
I'd be interested in what other rules you'd list, if you don't mind.

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That's not to say that someone who thoroughly understands the rules and why they exist can't break them; on the contrary, judiciously breaking the rules is often necessary in great writing. However, the new writer who breaks them out of ignorance usually will find that their prose is better if the rules are followed.
I honestly have a hard time wrapping my head around that. If "breaking" the rule can be a good thing, then doesn't that mean that maybe there's a problem with the rule? Like, shouldn't they perhaps be "rules for novice writers" rather than "rules for all writers, though you can break the rules once you've learned them well enough"? That seems to me like saying that as a rule everyone should have training wheels on their bikes, but you can break the rule and take them off if you're good enough.
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Online Jonathon

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« Reply #215 on: December 07, 2007, 01:34:37 PM »
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OK.  If you throw in the word "excessive", then it's a totally different situation.  Just like irregularly-shaped moles could be useful for predicting cancer while the mer presence of moles wouldn't be, excessive adverbs can be a sign of poor writing while adverbs in general aren't.

Of course, it's practically a tautology that excessive anything is bad.
Exactly. But I get the feeling that CrowsWife and I have very different ideas about what constitutes excess in this situation, and I think that's the key.
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Offline Porter

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« Reply #216 on: December 07, 2007, 01:36:14 PM »
I completely agree with Crow about breaking rules.  In the martial arts, we used to say that the better you understand a rule, the more you're allowed to break it.

Of course, that's because it's not really a rule -- it's an aid to teach a principle.
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Offline Brinestone

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« Reply #217 on: December 07, 2007, 02:14:23 PM »
I have to step in here because I've read a lot of amateur fiction writing, and I've been in several fiction writing groups, and there's a lot of truth to her assertion that beginning writers often overuse -ly adverbs. It's true that excessive anything is a mark of bad writing---I'm recalling one em-dash-heavy story we published at Leading Edge here---but it's also true that amateur fiction writers tend to love adverbs. It might be because their English teachers called their writing "descriptive" when they did it in grade school, and they definitely want to be descriptive while writing fiction.

I've seen this over and over and over again. Flat characters, terrible dialog, and plots that resemble a favorite novel or TV show are also common characteristics of new writers. For some reason, a lot of the adverbs they use show up in dialog tags (as Crow said). It gets really annoying.
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Offline theCrowsWife

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« Reply #218 on: December 07, 2007, 03:27:52 PM »
Jonathon, what you're saying about adverbs not being a predictor of poor quality writing probably is true in the abstract. But, like Brinestone, I have read and critiqued a lot of amateur writing in the last few years (I'll add here that I consider myself to still be an amateur, although a more knowledgeable one than a few years ago). In actual practice, over-use of adverbs (specifically -ly ones, as Brinestone noted) is so common amongst beginning writers that it is actually a predictor.

Back to the mole analogy, if you just thought that a mole was a mole,  you wouldn't be able to predict cancer by examining them. However, if you've learned through experience or training that some kinds of moles are usually bad news, they become much more useful. So, someone who has had the experience of reading and critiquing lots of amateur fiction will spot the "bad" adverbs much more easily than someone who doesn't have that experience. That person would also be more likely to scrutinize all adverbs for signs of badness.

Some other fiction writing rules (off the top of my head, based on things I see frequently). These are all things that can be broken if it is absolutely necessary for the story, but there are always consequences. If a writer is skilled enough to handle it, they'll do what they can to minimize the consequences. With luck, only someone trained in the rules will notice, and then only to say, "Hey, look at how this guy broke this rule! And it totally works in this story!"

-Show, don't tell. Personally, I believe that the rule is more correctly stated as "Show what is important and interesting, tell what is important and less interesting, and skip anything that is both unimportant and uninteresting." Example of this rule taken to the extreme: Robert Jordan. However, a lot of new writers do need to learn to write actual scenes instead of just stating what happens, or to show a character being angry rather than saying that he is, etc.

-If you're writing in limited omniscience POV, you can't tell us what non-POV characters are thinking.

-If you're writing in limited omniscience POV, you can't tell us anything that the POV character doesn't know.

-Just use "said," not "remarked, whispered, shouted, etc." Occasional use is fine, but if at all possible, include that information in other ways, like through the actions and thoughts of the character. This goes back to the "show, don't tell" rule.

-Don't hide information that the POV character knows that is important to the story. ESPECIALLY don't taunt the reader by having the character think about the information, but not actually share it. Writers think that hiding information increases suspense, but it really just increases frustration. In some genres this has become so entrenched that it's actually accepted as part of the way you write stories for that genre, but definitely don't use it outside of that genre (it seems like a lot of mystery stories are written this way, although I haven't kept up with the mystery genre so things may have changed). The exception to this is if you have an unreliable narrator, but those can be tricky to handle well.

There are plenty more, but those are broken so frequently that they tend to stay at the top of my mind.

--Mel
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 03:28:54 PM by theCrowsWife »

Offline Porter

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« Reply #219 on: December 07, 2007, 04:10:08 PM »
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If you're writing in limited omniscience POV, you can't tell us what non-POV characters are thinking.
Bujold cheats with this one.  Her characters are able to more information that seems humanly possible from a glance or a nod.

"With a turn of her hand, she indicated that she partially agreed with him, but had reservations on account of the possible economic ramifications, and that they should form a 12-member committee to examine the matter more fully."

Quote
Don't hide information that the POV character knows that is important to the story. ESPECIALLY don't taunt the reader by having the character think about the information, but not actually share it.
Few writing tricks are liable to piss me off like this one.  I don't see it that much in books, but it's quite frequent on the screen.
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Online Jonathon

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« Reply #220 on: December 08, 2007, 04:45:47 PM »
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Jonathon, what you're saying about adverbs not being a predictor of poor quality writing probably is true in the abstract. But, like Brinestone, I have read and critiqued a lot of amateur writing in the last few years (I'll add here that I consider myself to still be an amateur, although a more knowledgeable one than a few years ago). In actual practice, over-use of adverbs (specifically -ly ones, as Brinestone noted) is so common amongst beginning writers that it is actually a predictor.
I've read my fair share of amateur writing too (and written some). Yes, I know the problem exists, but I still think "adverbs are often a sign of lazy writing" to be a gross overstatement. I'd be surprised if there's really much of difference between good adverb use and bad adverb use, statistically speaking.

Actually, it might be an interesting project to count the number of adverbs in a piece of bad writing and in a comparable piece of good writing. If anyone wants to take a crack at it, that'd be awesome. Or maybe I'll do it myself when I've got time.
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Offline Tante Shvester

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« Reply #221 on: December 08, 2007, 04:58:21 PM »
My favorite peeve about amateur writing is the part where the character stops in front of a mirror and then the reader gets to see what he looks like.  I just wait for this bit.

"John caught a glimpse of himself in the mirror.  His raven black hair fell to shoulder length, framing his angular face.  His ice blue eyes looked back at him piercingly, and a shudder went through him as he was struck by their power.  His long thin nose twitched, alluringly, as he licked his full, yet masculine, lips.  He smiled at his reflection, revealing pointy canine teeth."
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Offline Neutros the Radioactive Dragon

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« Reply #222 on: December 10, 2007, 08:52:00 AM »
I've seen some really good amatuer writing, and some really bad professional writing as well.

Although a professional would have to convince someone that the piece is good enough to get paid for, I don't see much other correlation between good and bad writing based on vocation.

Offline dkw

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« Reply #223 on: December 28, 2007, 08:24:13 AM »
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Could you please respond back to me “today”, and let me know . . .

 >.<  

Offline rivka

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« Reply #224 on: December 28, 2007, 09:03:23 AM »
YES! YES! A THOUSAND TIMES YES!

That one is even worse than the grocer's apostrophe, and y'all probably know how I feel about that. ;)

Using quotes for emphasis kills no kittens. However, I devoutly believe that you lose a day of your life for each offense. (And there is someone on Hatrack who is working on their third year's worth of days. :P)
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