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Author Topic: The random etymology of the day  (Read 238541 times)

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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2050 on: October 16, 2018, 09:11:22 AM »
Also, this reminds me of Rhababerbarbera. I wish there were a version with a translation, but this will have to do.
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Offline sweet clementine

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2051 on: November 02, 2018, 03:03:38 AM »
here I am for my sporadic venture to the other side of the forum that I always forget exists to ask an etymology question. Today I got into a discussion with my coworker about bimonthly as a term for every other month and/or twice a month. I was trying to tell a client that we would be calling him every other month and my coworker was like "that's bi-monthly" and I was like "yeah, but I've always preferred to think of that as twice a month" (same with bi-weekly). She replied that I was thinking of semi-monthly.

I know that you can use bi-monthly both ways, technically, but I was wondering if one of them is more correct?
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Offline Kate Boots

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2052 on: November 02, 2018, 09:03:12 AM »
I did not know that you could use "bi - anything" to mean the same as "semi-anything".  That makes it pretty useless, doesn't it?

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2053 on: November 02, 2018, 07:09:15 PM »
I'm kind of surprised that you've never run into problems with it before, Kate. It seems pretty common to me.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure if you can really say that one or the other is correct. The OED first records bimonthly meaning "occurring or appearing every two months" in 1879 and meaning "occurring or appearing twice in a month" in 1878. Some people suggest that we could avoid the ambiguity by using semimonthly instead and reserving bimonthly for the "every other" use, but that only works if everyone stops using it to mean "twice a month".
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Offline sweet clementine

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2054 on: November 03, 2018, 03:30:53 AM »
well, that at least makes me feel better about preferring to use it to mean twice a month, as my coworker was rather annoyingly superior about her insistence that semi-monthly was the only right option. She had this "oh, you're always so contrary and I'll humor you even though I know the correct answer" vibe that bugged the heck out of me.
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Offline Kate Boots

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2055 on: November 03, 2018, 06:26:09 AM »
I guess I've gotten lucky? Or always clarified when it mattered because I was aware there was confusion. But how useless! What is the point to it if one always has to clarify it?  And when we already have "semi" when we want to say  twice a whatever?

Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2056 on: November 03, 2018, 11:59:06 AM »
well, that at least makes me feel better about preferring to use it to mean twice a month, as my coworker was rather annoyingly superior about her insistence that semi-monthly was the only right option. She had this "oh, you're always so contrary and I'll humor you even though I know the correct answer" vibe that bugged the heck out of me.

I think it's fair to say that semimonthly is the only unambiguous option, but everything beyond that is just, like, people's opinions, man.

I guess I've gotten lucky? Or always clarified when it mattered because I was aware there was confusion. But how useless! What is the point to it if one always has to clarify it?  And when we already have "semi" when we want to say  twice a whatever?

It's often clear from context, like when a bimonthly newsletter comes out in January, March, May, and so on.

It looks like these uses of bi- and semi- arose around the same time, and often when that happens, it's not really planned—people are just trying to fill a need. And so someone trying to communicate "twice a month" might say "bimonthly" because it seems to make sense in context, while someone else trying to communicate "every two months" says the same thing because it also makes sense in context.

I'm not sure if bi- was ambiguous in this way in Latin, but it's been used that way in English so long that there's really no going back now.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2057 on: November 06, 2018, 10:50:32 AM »
Random etymology of the day: wiseacre is from the Middle Dutch wijsseggher, meaning 'soothsayer' (literally "wise sayer"), which is from the Old High German wizago, meaning 'prophet'. Wizago is related to words like wit, wise, wisdom, and wizard. It looks like, when the Dutch borrowed it from German, they changed it by folk etymology to 'wise sayer'. And when we borrowed it from the Dutch, we changed it again, possibly through the influence of an obsolete English word segger meaning 'braggart'.

I guess the route from prophet to know-it-all to smart aleck is shorter than we might like to admit.


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Offline rivka

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2058 on: November 06, 2018, 12:26:47 PM »
Sig!
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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2059 on: November 06, 2018, 12:45:05 PM »
 :D
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Offline Noemon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2060 on: December 29, 2018, 12:58:04 PM »
The other day I was talking to my mom, and she made reference to a piece of grazing land being so poor that it would only be able to support, as she put it, "one head of cattle". My response to that was "So...a cow, then?"

It got me thinking about that use of the word "head", though. How long has it been used as a term meaning "unit of herd animals", and how did it come to mean that etymologically?
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2061 on: December 30, 2018, 11:12:36 AM »
It's a unit of enumeration more generally, as in head count and a hundred bucks a head, though I'm not quite sure how that sense developed. The OED simply dates it to Old English, though there are only a couple of citations in Old English and then a gap until the 1400s. I wonder if it comes from the influence of the Latin caput 'head', which also appears in counting senses, as in per capita.

There's also the parallel development of poll, which originally meant 'top of the head' but came to mean a survey or vote. So I guess there's a natural progression from counting heads to using head to refer to the result of the counting.
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Offline Noemon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2062 on: December 31, 2018, 11:01:14 AM »
Interesting. Thanks for looking into it.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2063 on: December 31, 2018, 12:05:06 PM »
No problem!
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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2064 on: May 07, 2019, 08:51:03 AM »
Peach comes from the Old French pesche, which in turn comes from the Late Latin pessica, which ultimately comes from the earlier Latin malum persica, literally 'Persian apple'. The fruit ultimately comes from China, but it reached Europe via Persia.
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Offline Ela

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2065 on: May 07, 2019, 05:46:40 PM »
Interesting.


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Offline rivka

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2066 on: May 07, 2019, 06:08:30 PM »
I wonder how many fruits and vegetables have names that are "____ apple" or the equivalent, or else derive from such.

Potatoes are "ground apples" in French and Hebrew. I know there are other examples, but am drawing a blank.
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Offline Brinestone

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2067 on: May 08, 2019, 06:30:04 AM »
Pomegranate, pineapple
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2068 on: May 08, 2019, 09:06:58 AM »
Melon is apparently from the Greek melopepon, literally 'gourd-apple'.

And this bit from the Online Etymology Dictionary is interesting:

Quote
In Middle English and as late as 17c., it was a generic term for all fruit other than berries but including nuts (such as Old English fingeræppla "dates," literally "finger-apples;" Middle English appel of paradis "banana," c. 1400). Hence its grafting onto the unnamed "fruit of the forbidden tree" in Genesis. Cucumbers, in one Old English work, are eorþæppla, literally "earth-apples" (compare French pomme de terre "potato," literally "earth-apple;" see also melon). French pomme is from Latin pomum "apple; fruit" (see Pomona).

There are also examples like love apple for 'tomato'. It sounds like this kind of thing used to be a lot more common in English and probably other languages too.
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Offline rivka

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2069 on: May 08, 2019, 04:08:30 PM »
So with peach and potato, that's at least 5 in current use.

And I know that "apple" used to mean any generic fruit, as it comes up when discussing Genesis. There is some debate about what fruit Eve picked, but it was definitely not what we call an apple.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2070 on: May 08, 2019, 04:17:42 PM »
I also thought this part was interesting:

Quote
As far as the forbidden fruit is concerned, again, the Quran does not mention it explicitly, but according to traditional commentaries it was not an apple, as believed by Christians and Jews, but wheat. ["The Heart of Islam: Enduring Values for Humanity," Seyyed Hossein Nasr, 2002]
link

Of course, the part about Christians and Jews isn't really accurate either, but the idea that the domestication of wheat (and thus the rise of cities and civilization) is what triggered humanities fall is kind of fascinating.
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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2071 on: May 08, 2019, 04:19:12 PM »
Now I wonder what percentage of Christians and Jews would say that Adam and Eve ate a literal apple.
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Offline rivka

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2072 on: May 08, 2019, 04:24:14 PM »
Now I wonder what percentage of Christians and Jews would say that Adam and Eve ate a literal apple.
Sadly, probably a large percentage. But I would say that is more an indication of lack of knowledge than of the religion's official stance. Certainly for Judaism.

By the way, wheat is one of the contenders in Jewish sources as well.

These are the usual candidates: https://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/1982723/jewish/Was-the-Forbidden-Fruit-Really-an-Apple.htm

This relatively recent article seems like a pretty exhaustive exploration of the subject in Jewish sources: https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-law/whats-truth-apple-garden-eden/
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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2073 on: May 09, 2019, 07:44:34 PM »
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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Offline Noemon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #2074 on: June 19, 2019, 09:38:54 PM »
I could kind of see wheat being the original conception of the forbidden fruit. It would fit with God's rejection of Cain's sacrifice, and the general bias against farming and preference for nomadic herding that you see in the Hebrew scriptures.
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