The random etymology of the day

[Jonathon]

Mandarin for hundreds of years did not have the word "no" in the sense we use it in English.  There *is* the word 不 which can be translated as "not."  But it couldn't be used by itself in a reply.  You always put a verb or adjective next to it.  So if somebody said, "你要去嗎?" (Literally: You are going ?) if you wanted to say no, you would say, "不去" (not going).

If you wanted to flat out say something was incorrect or wrong you had to literally say, "不對." (not correct.) or "錯" (mistake/wrong).  But 錯 literally means a mistake, so you can't just say it in lieu of no.

But after being exposed to English grammar, it's common place now for people who don't adhere to strict grammar to say the following,

"我聽説中國人不只是說 ‘不’ 反而在不的旁邊要加個動詞或者形容詞。"  (I've heard the Chinese don't just say 'no', in fact you must add a verb or an adjective after no.)

"不不不， 這樣不對。"  (No no no, this is incorrect."

Fun neh?*

*sorry I couldn't resisted

I forgot to mention that Welsh works about the same way. You have to use a negative form of the verb, but there are some occasions when you can just say no. But my understanding is that it's becoming more common to just say "nage" or "na" instead of using a negated verb.

[Scott R]

Jonathon makes me fall in love with the English language all over again.  He's like a linguistic Cupid.

[Annie Subjunctive]

English is like Welsh's hot sister who gets all the attention. You sit around and talk about how smart and talented Welsh is and all the guys in the room are like "Oh man - that reminds me that I am totally in love with English. She's so freaking hot."

If you're lucky, Welsh will just grow up to write witty books. If you're unlucky, she'll get all bitter in her spinsterhood and name her cats after dead British poets who understood her.

[Scott R]

That wouldn't make me unlucky, Annie.

I've got English, after all.

[Jonathon]

Jonathon makes me fall in love with the English language all over again.  He's like a linguistic Cupid.

Thanks, Scott.

[pooka]

This goes back a bit, but I think "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear" is a bit abstract for a chinese idiom.  You would have to come up with a couple of animals that are known for their poor hearing and sight, like a snake and a bat, and there is some humorous story. 

I don't know a lot about chinese, but the full extent of my chinese education was these kinds of animal based idioms.  This was the no-english-at-all immersion course.  :facepalm:  One of the idioms did involve sheep and some predatory carnivores.  I think one was a wolf.  They were never able to adequately pantomime what the other was.  But the one had long front legs and the other had long rear legs and they were able to work together to get at the goats/sheep.  Except the second one couldn't get over.  I think the moral of the story was don't cooperate with wolves.

Also, my chinese instructor was a very poor artist.  I came across some documentation for this the other day.  I found my book of chinese idioms and the stories about them.  Her drawing of a goat looked like an archetypal alien with three hairs coming off the chin and... well, I just have to find it. 

Dui nau tan qing was one of my favorites, though. 

[Annie Subjunctive]

I don't know who decided that 100% immersion for beginners was a good idea.

[Brinestone]

That's how I was introduced to German. There was a lot of pantomiming, using the German phrase meaning, "for example," and taking advantage of the few in the class who had been exposed to some German before to cooperate. Once a solid base was built, it was actually pretty awesome. I wish I'd had more of it past 101.

[BlackBlade]

I don't know who decided that 100% immersion for beginners was a good idea.

I dunno, if it's a second language, that may be the only way to knock down the tendency to use your mother tongue and to reset everything.

[pooka]

But it was only one class a day.  I also think it's a bad plan when there is no cognates between the languages.  I'm sure it's very entertaining for the faculty, but it was very demoralizing as a student.  I withdrew in the second term and never got back to Chinese, and unless we are called on a mission there, I don't really plan to.

And I'll reiterate that we were not learning classroom furniture and body parts and daily activities (we did this in German and I really did well with it.)  We were trying to pick up stories behind traditional Chinese idioms.

PPS:  I had the alternate experience with Arabic, where we basically spent two and a half years describing aspects of the language in English, and there was very little fluency based training.  That also sucked.  I could learn a list of vocabulary, fine, but I didn't every really master the tiny words that stick sentences together, and we were still doing handwriting drills in third year.

[BlackBlade]

Pooka: BTW, I disagree that my idiom was too abstract.  The Chinese have much more abstract idioms than that.

[Tante Shvester]

I don't know who decided that 100% immersion for beginners was a good idea.

That method worked out OK for me, and of all the languages I have studied, it's the only one in which I gained any degree of fluency.  Except for some odd turns of phrase, I can pretty much pass as a native.

[Annie Subjunctive]

The research on immersion shows pretty much across the board that a combination of native language and target language study are most effective for second language learners. Current industry "best practice" is 60% target language 40% native. This doesn't imply interspersion of the two (though there are other methods that do that) or direct translation. But it does show that native language instruction in some grammar and mechanics helps learners (and the older they are, the more it helps them) learn a second language a lot faster. The immersion is still relevant and helpful for achieving pronunciation and fluency, however.

[pooka]

Pooka: BTW, I disagree that my idiom was too abstract.  The Chinese have much more abstract idioms than that.

Possibly, but isn't the idea of an idiom that it doesn't mean what it actually says?  Otherwise it's an epigram.  Granted, idiom isn't a perfect translation for the idea of these little sayings. 

[Jonathon]

I just learned that the word wee comes from weigh. The word was originally most often used with little, meaning something like 'a small measure'.

[BlackBlade]

Cool!

Where does gumption come from?  It sounds French, what with the 'tion' at the end, so does it really come from Latin?

[Annie Subjunctive]

Um... French comes from Latin. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. And gumption doesn't sound French to me, it sounds really anglo saxony.

[BlackBlade]

Um... French comes from Latin. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your question. And gumption doesn't sound French to me, it sounds really anglo saxony.

Right, it sounds French by virtue of the 'tion' which means it's Latin?

I agree it sounds anglo-saxony but are there a lot of those kinds of words where 'tion' is tacked on?  None come immediately to mind.

[Jonathon]

It's a Latinate-looking ending, but apparently its origins are obscure.

[BlackBlade]

First recorded in 1812?  The word could learn a few things from itself.

[Jonathon]

No, it was first recorded in 1719. It was first recorded in the sense of 'initiative' in 1812.

[BlackBlade]

Oh, missed that part at the beginning.

[Annie Subjunctive]

I'm guessin the "tion" looking Latinate is a function of it being anglicized or a mere coincidence in sound. It makes sense that the first use is Scottish.

[Tante Shvester]

Mmm . . . "Luction" isn't from the Latin, I'm pretty sure, and that has the "tion" at the end.  Then again, "luction" probably isn't English, either.

[rivka]

And it's actually spelled "lokshen" or "lukshen", depending on which dialect of Yiddish one speaks.