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Author Topic: The random etymology of the day  (Read 222602 times)

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Offline dkw

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1125 on: August 06, 2010, 09:16:07 PM »
And in Latin ne can mean not or "and not" or "but not" or, used as an exclamation, it can mean "verily" or "indeed" or "truly."  And doesn't that make translating fun, especially when there's no punctuation so you can't tell if it's being used as a (negative) conjunction or a (positive) interjection.  Stupid small words.

Offline BlackBlade

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1126 on: August 07, 2010, 12:09:28 AM »
Mandarin for hundreds of years did not have the word "no" in the sense we use it in English.  There *is* the word 不 which can be translated as "not."  But it couldn't be used by itself in a reply.  You always put a verb or adjective next to it.  So if somebody said, "你要去嗎?" (Literally: You are going ?) if you wanted to say no, you would say, "不去" (not going).

If you wanted to flat out say something was incorrect or wrong you had to literally say, "不對." (not correct.) or "錯" (mistake/wrong).  But 錯 literally means a mistake, so you can't just say it in lieu of no.

But after being exposed to English grammar, it's common place now for people who don't adhere to strict grammar to say the following,

"我聽説中國人不只是說 ‘不’ 反而在不的旁邊要加個動詞或者形容詞。"  (I've heard the Chinese don't just say 'no', in fact you must add a verb or an adjective after no.)

"不不不, 這樣不對。"  (No no no, this is incorrect."

Fun neh?*

*sorry I couldn't resisted
Kyrgyzstan, is the homeland of the Kyrgyzs, a people best known for cheating at Scrabble. -Tante Shvester

What, you expected us to be badly injured or dead, and flying blind to boot? You're the one who told us all to be Awesome. -Brinestone

Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1127 on: August 07, 2010, 08:37:04 AM »
BB, my dorky Chinese House friends and I at BYU would always say "為什麼不?" in a deliberate Americanism. As in, someone would say "吃飯吧" and we'd answer with "為什麼不?" (as in "why not?") But I swear since I've come to Taiwan I've heard some people say it. Then again, my hearing and picking out words is not so great yet. Is that something that you can really say in Chinese?
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1128 on: August 07, 2010, 08:40:58 AM »
Also, in Japanese you negate by inflecting the verb. (行くの? Going? 行かない. Not going.) There is a word for "no," (いいえ) but it's too direct and you don't use it often. You usually say something like 嫌だ (that's repellant) or, in most polite situations, you use the verb "it differs." (違います) I always really liked that. "Are you from California?" "It differs."

Of course, Japanese isn't related to anything, so my information does nothing to help the current discussion. It's gratuitous linguistic anecdote. I learned the fine art of the gratuitous linguistic anecdote in linguistics classes at BYU.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline BlackBlade

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1129 on: August 07, 2010, 04:45:58 PM »
Annie: I've never heard that phrase used that way.  I *have* heard "爲什麽不去." (why aren't you going?) but I'm not sure the Chinese have a phrase to indicate approval that way.  I guess you could say something grammatically sensible but out of left field like, "不會造成惡性循環, 應該去" Lit: "It won't start a vicious cycle, so lets go."  Or you could go with, "怎麽也得吃吧。"  Which translates kinda funny into English but "Whatever/Whoever it is, they're gonna eat."

If you do want to entertain some people I learned a related phrase (related to the movie not to your question) from Farewell My Concubine, and I ran with it.  It always makes people smile because one it's different from what most foreigners would say, and two it's a bit over the top dramatic.  Say somebody says to you, "你有沒有吃晚飯" (Have you eaten dinner?)

I sometimes respond (but not every time otherwise it loses it's effect),

"好像有,肯定有, 絕對有!" (I seem to have, certainly did, absolutely did!" (hao3 xiang4 you2, ken3 ding4 you2, jue2 dui4 you2)

The trick is in delivery, you get progressively certain, so you get progressively more direct and loud.  The last three words have to be said almost with as much panache as you can muster.  It can be used in any circumstance where somebody asks you if you have or have not done something, or even if you want to do something, just replace "有" with "要"

Which should be especially easy in Taiwan because they have a habit of adding a "有" in front of lots of verbs.  People here in Beijing tease me that I tend to do that as well.  Thanks Taiwan!
Kyrgyzstan, is the homeland of the Kyrgyzs, a people best known for cheating at Scrabble. -Tante Shvester

What, you expected us to be badly injured or dead, and flying blind to boot? You're the one who told us all to be Awesome. -Brinestone

Offline BlackBlade

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1130 on: August 07, 2010, 04:58:57 PM »
Also I passed a *major* milestone today in my Chines studies.  While I was a missionary I learned some Chinese idioms and they are an absolutely fantastic way to spice up your language as well as distinguish yourself from the legions of foreigners who are learning Chinese.  As a missionary I'd occasionally try to invent my own Chinese idioms and try to pass them off as legitimate.  Chinese people were never fooled.  Besides having a basic essentials list of idioms that they all know, most of their idioms are descended from classical Chinese, (which is sorta like Old English to us, but even more difficult to understand) so using just normal Chinese words often won't cut muster.

My closest success as a missionary was the phrase, "狼多羊少." (The wolves are many, but the sheep are few).  I used it to describe a circumstance where we were proselyting at a post office, but between us, the guy selling newspapers, the people handing out fliers for some business, and the fruit vendor guy shouting while hawking his wares, it was hard to get anybody alone so as to introduce ourselves.

A day or two ago I was trying to explain the phrase, "Believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear," to a teacher.  I shrank it all down to,

"辦看無聞."  Of course since nobody says that, they needed me to explain it.  When I did, my teacher responded with, "That's a very good way to translate that concept!

I made up a feasible Chinese idiom!  Now I just have to say it enough that it catches on.  Too bad I thought of it about a week before leaving China.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 07:35:05 PM by BlackBlade »
Kyrgyzstan, is the homeland of the Kyrgyzs, a people best known for cheating at Scrabble. -Tante Shvester

What, you expected us to be badly injured or dead, and flying blind to boot? You're the one who told us all to be Awesome. -Brinestone

Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1131 on: August 07, 2010, 06:49:57 PM »
Ha! Love it. I successfully used 對牛彈琴 talking to my host family and was extremely proud of myself. Of course, I can be legitimately prouder when I manage to utter complete sentences without stopping to think 3 times.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline BlackBlade

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1132 on: August 07, 2010, 07:37:21 PM »
Ha! Love it. I successfully used 對牛彈琴 talking to my host family and was extremely proud of myself. Of course, I can be legitimately prouder when I manage to utter complete sentences without stopping to think 3 times.
I'd forgotten playing the qin for a cow.  Don't worry, with practice it goes away...I hope...
Kyrgyzstan, is the homeland of the Kyrgyzs, a people best known for cheating at Scrabble. -Tante Shvester

What, you expected us to be badly injured or dead, and flying blind to boot? You're the one who told us all to be Awesome. -Brinestone

Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1133 on: August 07, 2010, 10:28:12 PM »
This is just weird: I've always heard that Nazi is simply short for Nationalsozialist, but apparently it existed before the Nazi era as a nickname for the name Ignaz. This would make Nazi cognate with nacho, which comes from a Spanish nickname for Ignacio. Both are forms of the name Ignacius.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1134 on: August 07, 2010, 10:35:26 PM »
Nazi Libre! I'm waiting for it now.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline BlackBlade

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1135 on: August 07, 2010, 10:41:53 PM »
This is just weird: I've always heard that Nazi is simply short for Nationalsozialist, but apparently it existed before the Nazi era as a nickname for the name Ignaz. This would make Nazi cognate with nacho, which comes from a Spanish nickname for Ignacio. Both are forms of the name Ignacius.
That's really interesting.
Kyrgyzstan, is the homeland of the Kyrgyzs, a people best known for cheating at Scrabble. -Tante Shvester

What, you expected us to be badly injured or dead, and flying blind to boot? You're the one who told us all to be Awesome. -Brinestone

Offline The Genuine

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1136 on: August 08, 2010, 09:26:19 AM »
I wonder how many Germans go by that nickname today.
I think Jesse's right.

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Offline Jonathon

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1137 on: August 08, 2010, 09:26:51 AM »
I'm going to guess zero.
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Offline The Genuine

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1138 on: August 08, 2010, 10:01:53 AM »
I guess Hitler will go down in history as the guy who wiped out the name of thousands of Germans.
I think Jesse's right.

 -- Jonathon

Offline Brinestone

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1139 on: August 08, 2010, 11:02:17 AM »
Meh. Ever since Mickey Mouse was created, the name Mickey has become extremely rare. Donald too. You don't have to be horrible to make a name undesirable.

Okay, just checked my facts. Mickey Mouse was created in 1928. In 1910, the name was virtually unheard of. It spiked in popularity in the '40s and '50s. Looks like it actually boomed because of Walt Disney. Weird. Who would want to name their baby after an animated mouse?
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Offline The Genuine

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1140 on: August 08, 2010, 11:08:31 AM »
How did you even look that data up?
I think Jesse's right.

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Offline Brinestone

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1141 on: August 08, 2010, 11:34:28 AM »
Mickey Mouse wikipedia page and this cool site.

The statement that Mickey Mouse caused the spike is my own conjecture; it could have been that naming the mouse Mickey was a symptom of the rising popularity of the name.
Ephemerality is not binary. -Porter

Offline Tante Shvester

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1142 on: August 08, 2010, 01:25:22 PM »
Mickey is a nickname for Michael, though.  There were probably plenty of Michaels in 1910, but the nickname just didn't make it into the formal registry.
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Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1143 on: August 08, 2010, 04:43:23 PM »
One of my students wanted a new English name, and one that meant "wolf," so my friend and I looked it up. The first one was Adolf. Nope. Dang Hitler - ruining names for innocent Chinese students for generations to come.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline Tante Shvester

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1144 on: August 08, 2010, 09:07:04 PM »
Well, to be fair, there aren't too many Benitos or Tojos running around in the preschool set, either.

Doesn't "Rudolf" also mean "wolf"?  And it has the cool "Rudy" nickname.
Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
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I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline Porter

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1145 on: August 08, 2010, 10:47:35 PM »
Give him the name "Professor Lupin".
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Sooner or later, this forum is going to max out on hyperliteralness.

Offline Annie Subjunctive

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1146 on: August 09, 2010, 01:04:51 AM »
We ended up letting him choose between Channing, Conan, Ralph, Randall, Rudolph and Ulric. We informed him that Conan was by far the most cool.
"It is true, however, that the opposite of Little Rock, Arkansas is Boulder, Colorado." - Tante

Offline BlackBlade

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1147 on: August 09, 2010, 01:26:59 AM »
We ended up letting him choose between Channing, Conan, Ralph, Randall, Rudolph and Ulric. We informed him that Conan was by far the most cool.
He's also a popular cartoon and comic down in China and Japan.  He's a boy genius who does detective work in order to solve crimes.

My father's name is Ralph but he got teased mercilessly growing up because it sounds like Alfalfa (thanks Tante) and ralph of course means to barf.  Even though I think it's a perfectly wonderful name he goes by his middle name and will never look back.

I think Porter's suggestion is the best.  Go by Lupin but give him the nickname, "Professor."
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 02:09:01 AM by BlackBlade »
Kyrgyzstan, is the homeland of the Kyrgyzs, a people best known for cheating at Scrabble. -Tante Shvester

What, you expected us to be badly injured or dead, and flying blind to boot? You're the one who told us all to be Awesome. -Brinestone

Offline Tante Shvester

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1148 on: August 09, 2010, 02:00:37 AM »
Alph alpha?  Oh!  Alfalfa!

Fighting thread drift with guilt, reverse psychology, and chicken soup.
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I love Bones.  -- Sweet Clementine
She grew on him like she was a colony of E. coli and he was room-temperature Canadian beef. -- anonymous

Offline BlackBlade

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Re: The random etymology of the day
« Reply #1149 on: August 09, 2010, 02:09:45 AM »
Post edited.  I'm spelling a lot (but putting spaces between a lot and a little) of words wrong these days.
Kyrgyzstan, is the homeland of the Kyrgyzs, a people best known for cheating at Scrabble. -Tante Shvester

What, you expected us to be badly injured or dead, and flying blind to boot? You're the one who told us all to be Awesome. -Brinestone