Author Topic: The random etymology of the day (Read 222583 times)

Jonathon · « **Reply #725 on:** June 12, 2008, 03:06:24 PM »

The other day I was wondering about words like double and triple, so I decided to look them up. The dou- and tri- parts are pretty obvious, but I had no idea what -ble/-ple meant. It also occurred to me that multiple was probably connected.

According to the OED, the original form of the ending in Latin was -plus, which is also the source of the word plus in English today. Apparently this root goes back to a Proto-Indo-European word meaning "full," though some other sources connect it to a different PIE word meaning "fold," which would make a word like double perfectly cognate with the native English twofold.

By the way, forms like double and treble appear to have come via French, while duple and triple came more directly from Latin.

But the word single is completely unrelated. It comes from singulum, which is a diminutive form of sim, the same root found in simple and (possibly) sincere. Sim comes from the PIE *sem, meaning "one, together." Descendents of that root include the English same and the Greek homo.

goofy · « **Reply #726 on:** June 13, 2008, 07:39:05 AM »

Quote

Apparently this root goes back to a Proto-Indo-European word meaning "full," though some other sources connect it to a different PIE word meaning "fold," which would make a word like double perfectly cognate with the native English twofold.

Watkins says it's from *pelh1- "to fill", the source of fill and German viel. Who connects it to a different root? The double/twofold connection is cool.

Tante Shvester · « **Reply #727 on:** June 13, 2008, 07:52:02 AM »

I'm supposing that double, triple, quadruple and the like have nothing at all to do with "pimple", right?

Jonathon · « **Reply #728 on:** June 13, 2008, 08:30:28 AM »

Quote

Quote
Apparently this root goes back to a Proto-Indo-European word meaning "full," though some other sources connect it to a different PIE word meaning "fold," which would make a word like double perfectly cognate with the native English twofold.
Watkins says it's from *pelh1- "to fill", the source of fill and German viel. Who connects it to a different root? The double/twofold connection is cool.

I did a bit more digging in the OED, and it looks like *pel and *ple are simply variants of the same stem. Their entry for double says the root is ple- 'to fill'. Under fele it's the pre-Teutonic *pélu. But under full they give a little more detail: "From the Aryan root *pel-, pol-, -pl, and its extended forms pl?-, pl?-, etc. are derived many words expressing the notion of abounding, filling, etc., as Skr. puru, Gr. ?? (see FELE a.); Gr. to fill, full, multitude, L. (com-, im-, op-, re-, sup-) pl?re to fill, pl?s more."

goofy · « **Reply #729 on:** June 13, 2008, 09:07:59 AM »

Quote

"From the Aryan root *pel-, pol-, -pl

Aryan? When's the last time that entry was updated? 1900?

Jonathon · « **Reply #730 on:** June 13, 2008, 09:16:49 AM »

I don't know why they haven't joined the rest of the modern world in calling it Proto-Indo-European. And Proto-Germanic is still Teutonic.

Porter · « **Reply #731 on:** July 10, 2008, 07:20:42 AM »

clue: from the Greek clew meaning "a ball of thread or yarn," originally used metaphorically in reference to the ball of yarn that Theseus used to find his way back out of the Labyrinth.

Jonathon · « **Reply #732 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:22:57 AM »

Interesting. But from what I can tell from the OED and etymonline.com, it's not of Greek origin. The OED suggests that it ultimately comes from a word meaning "mass or lump," making it related to the Latin conglomerate. It does seem that the modern sense developed from the tale of Theseus in the Labyrinth, though. Here's Chaucer's account:

Quote

By a clewe of twyn as he hath gon The same weye he may returne a-non ffolwynge alwey the thred as he hath come.

Quote

By a clew of twine as he has gone The same way he may return soon following always the thread as he has come.

Porter · « **Reply #733 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:31:43 AM »

Quote

The OED suggests that it ultimately comes from a word meaning "mass or lump," making it related to the Latin conglomerate.

I assume that it's also related to the verb to glom, meaning to group together?

goofy · « **Reply #734 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:31:45 AM »

Quote

Greek clew

no way is that Greek. where did you read that?

Porter · « **Reply #735 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:45:09 AM »

Hmmm... The Online Etymology Dictionary says "phonetic variant of clew (q.v.)". What does "q.v." mean?

goofy · « **Reply #736 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:58:42 AM »

Quote

Hmmm... The Online Etymology Dictionary says "phonetic variant of clew (q.v.)". What does "q.v." mean?

quod vide "which see" in other words, look under the entry for that word. But I wouldn't rely on the Online Etymology Dictionary as your only source.

Porter · « **Reply #737 on:** July 10, 2008, 09:33:19 AM »

Decipher this for me, please:

clew
"ball of thread or yarn," northern Eng. and Scot. relic of O.E. cleowen, probably from W.Gmc. *kleuwin, from P.Gmc. *kliwjo-, from I.E. *gleu- "gather into a mass, conglomerate" (related to clay).

goofy · « **Reply #738 on:** July 10, 2008, 09:46:35 AM »

Quote

Decipher this for me, please:

clew
"ball of thread or yarn," northern Eng. and Scot. relic of O.E. cleowen, probably from W.Gmc. *kleuwin, from P.Gmc. *kliwjo-, from I.E. *gleu- "gather into a mass, conglomerate" (related to clay).

So the Proto-Indo-European form is hypothesized to be *gleu- meaning "gather into a mass, conglomerate", and this became Old English "cleowen" (West Germanic and Proto-Germanic are hypothesized to be the ancestors of modern Germanic languages - in other words, an intermediary between Old English and Proto-Indo-European). The Old English word became a northern English and Scots word "clew" meaning "ball of thread or yarn".

Porter · « **Reply #739 on:** July 10, 2008, 09:48:27 AM »

Which was then used metaphorically for the Theseus' ball of twine to get our current meaning of clue.

Thanks!

Jonathon · « **Reply #740 on:** July 10, 2008, 10:55:59 AM »

Quote

I assume that it's also related to the verb to glom, meaning to group together?

I thought the meaning of glom was more along the lines of grabbing, not grouping together, and the OED backs that up. It looks like it comes from a Scots word glaum meaning 'to snatch at', but it doesn't give any evidence past that. The earliest citation is from about 1700.

rivka · « **Reply #741 on:** July 10, 2008, 11:04:12 AM »

Yeah, one gloms onto things, rather than glomming them.

goofy · « **Reply #742 on:** July 10, 2008, 11:16:26 AM »

glom looks Germanic to me, which suggests that it's not related to the glom in conglomerate. conglomerate is from Latin glomus "ball", and Latin g corresponds to Germanic c/k, as in English king, Latin genus (or English clue, Latin glomus). See Grimm's Law.

Porter · « **Reply #743 on:** July 10, 2008, 11:25:27 AM »

Quote

Yeah, one gloms onto things, rather than glomming them.

Really? If I were asked to use it in a phrase, I'd probably respond with "glomming stuff together".

Jonathon · « **Reply #744 on:** July 10, 2008, 11:36:57 AM »

I think you can glom onto someone or simply glom them. I wouldn't say "glom stuff together," though.

rivka · « **Reply #745 on:** July 10, 2008, 12:04:45 PM »

I have seen "glom onto" many times. IIRC, I have never seen it without that preposition.

Jonathon · « **Reply #746 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:22:00 PM »

I bet you have.

rivka · « **Reply #747 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:28:29 PM »

*LAUGH*

Ok, allow me to rephrase. I have never seen it used that way by anyone who I figured was correct to do so. I believe it was meant to be either gamer-speak or ironic in that case.

Jonathon · « **Reply #748 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:30:57 PM »

Why do you assume that gamer-speak or ironic uses are incorrect?

rivka · « **Reply #749 on:** July 10, 2008, 02:40:30 PM »

Because I'm a prescriptivist, naturally.

Gamer-speak is -- to me, at least -- incorrect, at least until such time as it becomes mainstream. And the whole point of using a word ironically is using it incorrectly.