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Author Topic: The latinization of English  (Read 1241 times)

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Offline Porter

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The latinization of English
« on: July 12, 2006, 07:05:28 PM »
I know w'eve had a thread about this before, but I can't find it.  How long do threads stick around here anyway?

Anway, I have an off-the-wall theory about why there is so much latin-love in the English language.  It's that through the history of our language, there have been many more people who are bilingual between English and a romantic language than between English and German or Greek.

I know that I personally enjoy the latin aspects of English a lot due to my knowledge of a romantic language.
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Offline pooka

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The latinization of English
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 07:18:41 PM »
My 8th grade Latin teacher (the one who would sing songs about my last name while I was absent, forgoing her normal Lionel Ritchie impersonation) said English was 60% Latin.  Oddly, I've heard the same assertion about Spanish and Arabic.  I guess 60% is a handy expression for "more than you think."
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Offline Jonathon

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The latinization of English
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2006, 08:35:56 PM »
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I know w'eve had a thread about this before, but I can't find it.  How long do threads stick around here anyway?
Forever. At the bottom of each subforum index is a series of drop-down menus that control how its shows the threads. Make sure you have the time frame set to "the beginning."

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Anway, I have an off-the-wall theory about why there is so much latin-love in the English language.  It's that through the history of our language, there have been many more people who are bilingual between English and a romantic language than between English and German or Greek.
I'm very skeptical of that claim, and I'm not even sure that you could prove that it's true or false. As I understand it, most English speakers during Norman rule did not speak French. And anyway, being fluent in French wouldn't give an English speaker a love of Latin any more than being fluent in Russian would give you a love of Old Church Slavonic.

I think it all comes down to the fact that Latin was the language of culture and learning. The literate elite knew Latin, so they were likely to use Latin words and phrases in writing, which then passed down to the masses.
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Offline Brinestone

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The latinization of English
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2006, 08:41:49 PM »
What does it even mean to say that English is 60% Latin? That 60% of the vocabulary is Latin (which I doubt)? That doesn't even take into account the grammar, pronunciation, etc., which I'm not even sure how you'd put a percentage on.
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Offline pooka

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The latinization of English
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2006, 07:57:32 AM »
Hence my final sentence :) .  

I think there is something else operating in English's absorption of Latin that has to do with the willingness to have many different words that mean the same thing, or that provide a way to describe something in minute detail rather than use adjectives.  

So we have:
Cow = Female Bovid
Bull = Male Bovid
Beef = Can be used to describe Bovids in general, or the meat that comes from them.
Calf = Baby Bovid
Steer = Neutered (male) Bovid
Heifer = Female (?) Bovid.

Another insight on this tendency in English is the need to create a separate word for every group of dfferent species of animal (pod of whales, murder of crows).  It seems like when this was discussed over at the rack, this turned out to start out as a parlor game and not any kind of official scientific nomenclature.  

It is like whether there is something about Arabic that encourages those stories with paradigmatic motif evolution (Similar to Goldilocks and the 3 bears).  Whereas Chinese folk tales hardly seem like stories so much as shorthand transcripts of actual events that happen to involve immortal elements.  

That's the trouble with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, or the idea that language makes up more of your identity than it seems.  It is not the case that every language affect the same part of your identity (like, say, math ability).  So it gets rather messy.  
 
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Offline Jonathon

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The latinization of English
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2006, 08:17:47 AM »
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What does it even mean to say that English is 60% Latin? That 60% of the vocabulary is Latin (which I doubt)? That doesn't even take into account the grammar, pronunciation, etc., which I'm not even sure how you'd put a percentage on.
I've heard before that 60 percent of our vocabulary is of Latin (or perhaps Latin and French) origin. However, something like 80 percent of the 200 most common words in English (which are mostly things like pronouns, basic verbs, articles, and prepositions) are of Anglo-Saxon or Norse origin, so the "60 percent Latin" claim isn't as meaningful as it sounds.
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Offline Porter

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The latinization of English
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2006, 08:24:50 AM »
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And anyway, being fluent in French wouldn't give an English speaker a love of Latin any more than being fluent in Russian would give you a love of Old Church Slavonic.
Becoming fluent in Portugese has given this English speaker a greater love of Latin than I had before.
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Offline Jonathon

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The latinization of English
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2006, 08:45:57 AM »
Okay. So maybe I should have said "Being fluent in French wouldn't give an English speaker the ability or even necessarily the desire to use or coin Latin words in English."
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