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Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Jonathon on March 11, 2005, 01:16:11 PM

Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 11, 2005, 01:16:11 PM
The sentence is "The subject is not being acted on."
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Brinestone on March 11, 2005, 02:11:03 PM
Do we get a prize if we get it right?
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Lady Montagu on March 11, 2005, 02:15:25 PM
I want to change my vote.

No matter what, it's a terrible sentence.  
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 11, 2005, 02:22:16 PM
If you get it right, you get the satisfaction of knowing that you know more than the staff member from Chicago who answered my email today.  :P

Actually, I just wanted to see how well people understand the difference between active and passive voice in non-simple verb conjugations. I know it's a terrible sentence, but that's not the point.


So that's a change from passive to active, Kat?
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jaiden on March 12, 2005, 06:14:34 PM
Can you tell us the difference after you're done your poll?
I'm clueless towards anything language related  :huh:
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 12, 2005, 08:04:26 PM
Yeah, I'll explain when it's over.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 13, 2005, 01:27:20 PM
At first, I thought "this sentence" meant the question itself. I was totally confused as to what tricky thing I was supposed to discover.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Porter on March 13, 2005, 03:32:18 PM
So did I.  I kept thinking of the statement "This statement is false."
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 14, 2005, 11:29:37 AM
Sorry about that. I hope I didn't throw anybody off too much.


The correct answer is passive.

The passive is formed when the past participle (the form of the verb that usually goes with have, as in "have kicked," "have eaten," and so on) is joined with a form of be (like "was kicked," "is being eaten," and so on). This has the effect of flipping the subject and object around.

I kicked the ball.

The ball was kicked by me.

Students are often told to avoid the passive like the plague because it can lead to weak, awkward writing. However, there are legitimate uses for the passive—I used it in the last sentence ("students are told") because the students are the important part, not the person doing the telling (compare it to "Teachers often tell students . . .").

The reason for all this is that there's a very gross error concerning the passive voice in The Chicago Manual of Style. Section 5.113 states, "If an inflected form of to be is joined with the verb's present participle, a progressive conjugation is produced {the ox is pulling the cart}. The progressive conjugation is in active voice because the subject is performing the action, not being acted on" (emphasis added).

It's inaccurate to say that progressive constructions are always active, especially since the author uses a passive progressive construction at the end of the paragraph. So I e-mailed Chicago about it, and this is the response I got:
Quote
Yes, I think perhaps you are misunderstanding the point here. Section 5.113 seeks to prevent an inaccurate extension of 5.112, which states that "the passive voice is always formed by joining an inflected form of to be (or, in colloquial usage, to get) with the verb's past participle." In 5.113, CMS points out that phrases like "the subject is not being acted on," which might look passive, are actually constructed with a present participle, rather than a past participle, and are active in voice. (Note that the subject--the word "subject"--is performing the action of not being; this is active, not passive.)

Thank you for writing--
Staff
The section in the manual is confusing and somewhat inaccurate, but the staff's defense of it is just flat-out wrong. They say that it's constructed with a present participle, not a past participle, but it has both. Then they say that it's the subject of not being, but they leave out the past participle again—it's really the object of not being acted on.

So if you got the answer right, congratulations: you officially know more about the passive voice than the staff members at The Chicago Manual of Style.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Patrick on March 14, 2005, 11:30:57 AM
I needed another option.. like...

Who gives a crap.  
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Porter on March 14, 2005, 11:34:46 AM
The answer to your original question seemed obvious, but I don't understand anything in that last post of yours, JB.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 14, 2005, 11:38:53 AM
Like, "You used too many technical terms that I don't know," or like "You can't write your way out of a paper bag, Jon Boy"? Hopefully it's the former.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Brinestone on March 14, 2005, 11:41:15 AM
To Chicago:  :P  :P  :P  
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Porter on March 14, 2005, 11:46:42 AM
more like "Jon and Chicago used lots of technical terms that I didn't understand".
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: sarcasticmuppet on March 14, 2005, 11:54:48 AM
Tough technical terms were used by Jon Boy and Chicago. :P  
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Brinestone on March 14, 2005, 11:58:43 AM
Let's see if I can help at all.

passive = be + past participle

inflected = not infinitive (in this instance), so inflected forms of to be are is, am, are, was, were, being, been

present participle = -ing verb (going, eating, sleeping)

past participle = form of verb usually used with have (have gone, have eaten, have slept)

progressive: A sentence that is progressive has a present participle in it. So, Lucy is watching her favorite soap opera is progressive because of is watching.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Kama on March 14, 2005, 12:21:02 PM
good to know I didn't spend 5 years at university for nothin.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 14, 2005, 01:14:10 PM
I suggest writing them back and saying "Do not go up against Jon Boy in a grammar war when death is on the line!"
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 14, 2005, 02:37:12 PM
Except that they really don't seem to realize that it's wrong. Here's what I wrote back:
Quote
I'm sorry, but "is being acted on" is definitely in the passive voice. Compare it to constructions like "is acted on," "has been acted on," "will be acted on," and so on. It contains a form of "to be" ("being") plus a past participle ("acted").

Thus, in that sentence, "subject" is the patient (or object) of the verb phrase "is being acted on (by something)." The implied "by something" is the true agent (or subject) of the verb. As a further example, this site (http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_passive.html) has a chart showing all passive forms with their corresponding active forms (including progressive constructions).

This is why I was wondering about 5.113. It is simply inaccurate and misleading to say that progressive constructions cannot be used with the passive voice.
And here's their response:
Quote
Well, I've done my best to defend Mr. Garner's take on the subject, but I'll be happy to add your letter to our file of suggested corrections and additions to CMS. If you wish to explore this question further, you might take the matter up with experts at grammar Web sites and help pages. Meanwhile, please write us again if you have a question about Chicago style.   --Staff
It's like he's not even considering the possibility that Garner is wrong. And then he tells me to go ask some experts for help! Gah!
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Kama on March 15, 2005, 04:34:49 AM
ask as many experts as you possibly can, then copy all their responses and send them to Chicago.

 
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Brinestone on March 15, 2005, 08:39:41 AM
You know, that just might work. :pirate:  
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 15, 2005, 09:10:01 AM
:lol:

I think I'll do that.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Pepe the Inamimated on March 22, 2005, 05:23:35 PM
I was confuzzled the same way Annie was. >_<
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Sheila on March 23, 2005, 12:51:56 PM
Yay! I got it right! All I had to do was think, "would I write this sentence? hmmm, yes I would. then it must be passive."
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 23, 2005, 01:13:32 PM
:lol: You sciency types are all alike.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Sheila on March 23, 2005, 01:57:06 PM
the person that did edit my prelim right at the last minute wrote "don't use passive" so many times that he eventually shortened it to "passive" over and over and over again. i like to imagine him rocking in a corner with his eyes flickering around chanting "passivetensepassivetense" over and over.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: eslaine on March 23, 2005, 02:01:29 PM
Cool!  It let me vote twice under the same login! ;)  
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Jonathon on March 23, 2005, 02:13:51 PM
Actually, it's the passive voice, not the passive tense.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Sheila on March 23, 2005, 02:14:17 PM
screw you, it's my fantasy!
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: TheTick on March 23, 2005, 02:14:42 PM
You need a better fantasy life, my friend.
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: Sheila on March 23, 2005, 02:17:40 PM
i didn't say it was my *only* fantasy.

and i was expecting you to say something about it being a financial planning service away from another fantasy.  :innocent:  
Title: Quick quiz
Post by: TheTick on March 23, 2005, 02:22:21 PM
If I remembered what you were referring to, I most likely would have. ;)