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Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Scott R on January 25, 2010, 07:12:20 AM

Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Scott R on January 25, 2010, 07:12:20 AM
When I was growing up, I definitely remember being taught that words ending in -s could indicate possession by placing the apostraphe after the ending -s.  Like:

Nicholas' brother
Charles' last will and testament
Bess' dresses
Jesus' tears

Is that the grammatically correct way to do things?  I'm being told it isn't...and if it isn't, could someone point me to the rules that govern this nonsense?
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: The Genuine on January 25, 2010, 07:22:27 AM
That's what I was taught too.  And I too have since been told it's wrong.

I caved and add the extra S now.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Brinestone on January 25, 2010, 07:49:31 AM
Chicago advises adding the extra 's where it's pronounced and not where it isn't. Which generally means that you'd get:

Nicholas's brother
Charles's last will and testament
Bess's dresses
Jesus' tears (Jesus and Moses and the like are special because their names have two s sounds in a row, so our natural instinct is not to say "Moses's")
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Porter on January 25, 2010, 07:50:59 AM
I say "Moses's" and "Jesus's".

But, like Scott, I was taught to write "Moses'".
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Scott R on January 25, 2010, 08:07:04 AM
Quote
Chicago advises adding the extra 's where it's pronounced and not where it isn't.

Okay-- thanks.  I guess that makes sense, since English is somewhat phonetic.  

But it looks clumsy on paper...
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 25, 2010, 08:45:54 AM
Someone somewhere taught me that modern names ending in S need the extra S (Charles's, Nicholas's) but that classic names can just use the apostrophe (Jesus', Moses', Archimedes', Euripides')

Also, knock knock...
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: rivka on January 25, 2010, 08:46:25 AM
Other guides do not add the superfluous s. I'm with them.

Lois'!
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Porter on January 25, 2010, 08:49:16 AM
English rules are gross and smell like poo.  :grumble:  
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Jonathon on January 25, 2010, 09:47:36 AM
Quote
When I was growing up, I definitely remember being taught that words ending in -s could indicate possession by placing the apostraphe after the ending -s.  Like:

Nicholas' brother
Charles' last will and testament
Bess' dresses
Jesus' tears

Is that the grammatically correct way to do things?  I'm being told it isn't...and if it isn't, could someone point me to the rules that govern this nonsense?
As others have said, it's a correct way to do things. The reason, I believe, is that pronunciation of possessives ending with s is variable. Some people pronounce the extra s, and some don't. And some fascist style guides like AP think there's only one right way to do things. ;)  
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Jonathon on January 25, 2010, 09:49:41 AM
Quote
English rules are gross and smell like poo.  :grumble:
There's something about equating "English rules" with "standardized English orthography" that bugs me for some reason. It's like saying math sucks because you don't like the fact that there are multiple ways to draw division notations.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: sweet clementine on January 25, 2010, 10:08:54 AM
Quote

Also, knock knock...
who's there?
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: The Genuine on January 25, 2010, 10:11:24 AM
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There's something about equating "English rules" with "standardized English orthography" that bugs me for some reason.
Me too.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: TomDavidson on January 25, 2010, 10:13:51 AM
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Some people pronounce the extra s, and some don't.
I couldn't figure out who doesn't pronounce the extra "s," or in what circumstances you might not. After all, no one says -- or would say -- "I stole Jesus tricycle." But then I realized that if the word already had an extra "s" as a consequence of a plural, I normally wouldn't say the "s"; in other words, I would NOT say "I shot out the Smiths-es window."
 
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Porter on January 25, 2010, 10:15:29 AM
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Quote
English rules are gross and smell like poo.  :grumble:
There's something about equating "English rules" with "standardized English orthography" that bugs me for some reason. It's like saying math sucks because you don't like the fact that there are multiple ways to draw division notations.
The fact that there are multiple ways to draw division notations doesn't suck.

The rules for writing English (a subset of "English rules") do suck.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Scott R on January 25, 2010, 10:20:09 AM
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The rules for writing English (a subset of "English rules") do suck.

I think they're value-neutral.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: BlackBlade on January 25, 2010, 03:46:46 PM
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Quote
The rules for writing English (a subset of "English rules") do suck.

I think they're value-neutral.
So they're really Swiss rules?
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 25, 2010, 03:55:43 PM
Quote
Quote

Also, knock knock...
who's there?
Euripides.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: sweet clementine on January 25, 2010, 04:15:45 PM
Euripides who?
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 25, 2010, 04:26:24 PM
Euripides pants, I break-a you face!
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: pooka on January 25, 2010, 08:50:01 PM
:lol:

I like the repeating s sounds explanation.  I will promulgate it.  Next time someone asks, which I anticipate will be never.  

If I feel like messing with them I will say "what did you think a semicolon was for?"
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: sweet clementine on January 25, 2010, 11:47:05 PM
:D :D :D
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: dkw on January 26, 2010, 09:27:29 PM
Quote
Quote
Some people pronounce the extra s, and some don't.
I couldn't figure out who doesn't pronounce the extra "s," or in what circumstances you might not. After all, no one says -- or would say -- "I stole Jesus tricycle." But then I realized that if the word already had an extra "s" as a consequence of a plural, I normally wouldn't say the "s"; in other words, I would NOT say "I shot out the Smiths-es window."
I don't usually pronounce the extra "s".  I admit if I had thought of this issue before Charles was born, however, he would probably have been named Alan.  It works for me to say, "No John, that's Charles' drink" but I don't like to say-- in answer to "can I have that?"  -- "No, it's Charles."  So then I add the extra "es" sound.  Unless I think ahead and say "No, it belongs to Charles."
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on January 26, 2010, 09:50:40 PM
You'll have to just start calling him Chuck, I guess.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: pooka on January 26, 2010, 09:57:58 PM
I take it "Charlie" is out of the question.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: dkw on January 27, 2010, 07:00:25 AM
When he's old enough to decide if he wants a nickname, we'll go with what he wants to be called.  Until then, "Charlie" is out of the question.

Except the occasional "Charlie-bear."  
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Tante Shvester on January 27, 2010, 07:34:26 AM
When my son was old enough to decide if he wanted a nickname, he informed me that I was to no longer call him "Pumpkin Muffin".


Hmmph.
Title: Indicating Possession For a Word Ending in -s
Post by: Brinestone on January 27, 2010, 09:35:17 AM
Pumpkin muffins are delicious. As are babies' toes.