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Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Ela on December 06, 2008, 06:38:14 PM

Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Ela on December 06, 2008, 06:38:14 PM
Have we ever had a thread like this? How do you find out the origin of commonly used expressions?

Example: "Fly off the handle."

I know what it means, and I can also find lots of definitions for it, but none of the definitions I have seen tell me what the origin of the expression is.  Anyone know?
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: rivka on December 06, 2008, 08:24:27 PM
origin from Phrase Finder (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/fly-off-the-handle.html)
from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/fly-off-the-handle)
from Take Our Word for It (http://www.takeourword.com/TOW113/page2.html)
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Neutros the Radioactive Dragon on December 08, 2008, 08:32:50 AM
Man, rivka, you should get the award for useful web references!
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: The Genuine on December 08, 2008, 09:41:34 AM
Yeah, that was pretty impressive.
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: rivka on December 08, 2008, 09:43:12 AM
Thanks.  :)

I love all three sites. So while I did use Google, I knew what I was looking for (and in one case went straight to their site to search).
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Ela on December 08, 2008, 12:51:40 PM
And that was the difference between you and me, in this case. :)
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Narnia on January 02, 2009, 02:44:17 PM
Ok, you guys are made of win.  My mom got a game for Christmas called "Origins of Phrases" and it's the Balderdash of Idioms.  Basically, you have to write the most convincing origin or the correct one.  (Oddly enough, you get more points for writing a fake origin and getting people to pick it than you do for writing the real origin.)  

Anyway, 'Fly off the Handle' came up and I was so excited that I actually knew the answer.  I couldn't for the life of me remember where I'd read it recently, but now I remember. :)
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Porter on January 02, 2009, 04:22:28 PM
Is that from when you swing a hammer or axe that's loose and it flies off of the handle?
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Noemon on January 02, 2009, 08:01:56 PM
If only there were a way to scroll closer to the top of the thread and click on any of the three links containing that information.
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Porter on January 03, 2009, 02:31:59 PM
:blush:
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: rivka on January 04, 2009, 12:33:34 PM
Poor Porter. Heckled by IM and in the thread.

That'll learn him not to trust the "new posts" button!
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: Porter on January 04, 2009, 08:46:14 PM
Quote
That'll learn him
:wub:
Title: Origin of idioms
Post by: rivka on January 04, 2009, 09:04:55 PM
You are so easy. ;)
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 30, 2010, 10:20:32 PM
Which of the colors, exactly, are the flying ones?
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on August 31, 2010, 02:54:46 AM
I still would like to know what the tune of a thousand dollars sounds like.
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Tante Shvester on August 31, 2010, 03:06:45 AM
You know The Bearnaked Ladies' If I Had a Million Dollars?  Well, it sounds kind of like an extra short version.

Or a very extended version of Pennies from Heaven.

Like that.
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Jonathon on August 31, 2010, 09:29:17 AM
Which of the colors, exactly, are the flying ones?

It apparently refers to the flags on a victorious fleet coming into port (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/6/messages/572.html).
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 06, 2010, 02:15:16 AM
Can anyone explain to me "near miss"?  If I nearly collide, why is that a near miss and not a near hit?  You'd think if I nearly missed something, then I must have hit it.


Also, what is this wagon that people are on when they are "on the wagon"?  Do they have a special wagon for non-drinkers?  Why would they have that?
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Jonathon on October 06, 2010, 08:56:05 AM
Can anyone explain to me "near miss"?  If I nearly collide, why is that a near miss and not a near hit?  You'd think if I nearly missed something, then I must have hit it.

It's a miss that was near, not something that was nearly a miss. Honestly, I've always been a little baffled by the confusion about or objection to this phrase. It's never seemed confusing or oxymoronic to me.

Quote
Also, what is this wagon that people are on when they are "on the wagon"?  Do they have a special wagon for non-drinkers?  Why would they have that?

Sorry, but I've got no clue.
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: rivka on October 06, 2010, 09:01:24 AM
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/on-the-wagon.html
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Nighthawk on October 06, 2010, 10:13:46 AM
Can anyone explain to me "near miss"?  If I nearly collide, why is that a near miss and not a near hit?  You'd think if I nearly missed something, then I must have hit it.

You're channeling George Carlin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuCN6CD8j_s) (Warning... but do I really have to say it?).
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: The Genuine on October 06, 2010, 10:22:08 AM
Man, you are fluent in Carlin, aren't you.
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Nighthawk on October 06, 2010, 12:24:36 PM
Kinda, yeah. :D
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Tante Shvester on October 06, 2010, 12:35:06 PM
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/on-the-wagon.html

Rivka, that's really interesting.  I would have never guessed.
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: rivka on October 06, 2010, 07:42:18 PM
Me neither!
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Ela on October 05, 2018, 10:24:13 AM
So, I know the origin of the term "gaslighting". I even know the definition. But this is one of those expressions that I don't really get in the sense that I would recognize and call something "gaslighting" when I see it. And when I see the expression used, I find I have to back up and re-read and remember what the expression means and why that thing could be called "gaslighting".

I'm not sure why that is.

Maybe cause it's an expression that was not commonly used when I was young and is now very commonly used? (Possibly even overused?) Not sure.
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Jonathon on October 05, 2018, 11:26:57 AM
It really seems like its use has exploded in the last few years. And I think everyone has words and phrases like that that just don't quite stick for whatever reason. I know I do, but I can't think of what they are because, you know, they don't stick.
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Ela on October 05, 2018, 01:44:08 PM
Gotcha.  :D
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 02, 2019, 10:13:35 AM
How can someone end up with the short end of the stick?  It's a stick. It has a definite, measurable length. How can one end be shorter than the other?
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Jonathon on May 02, 2019, 10:23:25 AM
I really don't know. This post (https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/end-of-the-stick.html) on the Phrase Finder doesn't really explain the meaning, though it says that it appears to come from an earlier "worse end of the staff" that dates back to the 1500s. Dictionary.com (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/short-end-of-the-stick--the) says, "The precise analogy in this term, first recorded in the 1930s, has been lost." They also mention the "worse end of the staff" connection but don't provide a clear explanation either. They say it might come from a stick poked up one's rectum (figuratively, I hope) or from fighting with sticks, where having a shorter stick is a disadvantage. (Though neither of those really explain why it's the short end of the stick.)
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: rivka on May 02, 2019, 12:19:14 PM
I always thought it referred to a stick with a curved end (so I guess a cane, really). One end (the curved one) is good for grasping. The other end (the short, blunt one) is mostly good for getting shoved at you (or you know, the ground), not so much for anything you would do with it.

(Can I use more parentheticals? I bet I can!)
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Tante Shvester on May 02, 2019, 01:23:35 PM
If it was a Y- shaped stick, and you took one fork of the Y while someone else took the other and you each pulled until the stick broke, the one who gets the short end loses the wishbone pull.

But you don't usually think of sticks as wishbone- shaped. It would be getting the short end of the bone.

Q: What's brown and sticky?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Amilia on May 09, 2019, 07:25:12 AM
In my head canon (read: something I made up at some point to explain stuff) the short end of the stick originated from that game where you have a stick, and the first person grabs the end in their fist, then the second person grabs just above the first person's fist, allowing the first person to let go and grab above the second person's fist, and so on up the stick.  And the person who ends up with the short end of the stick loses.

(In fact, before reading this conversation, I didn't even realize this must be just head canon.  I thought it was real . . . )
Title: Re: Origin of idioms
Post by: Jonathon on May 09, 2019, 08:21:23 AM
I feel like I've seen something like that on Looney Tunes.