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Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Jonathon on March 07, 2007, 08:34:14 PM

Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 07, 2007, 08:34:14 PM: There was an interesting and perplexing article (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/science/06brits.html?ex=1330837200&en=acbd9f11eada0fa3&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink%22) in the New York Times yesterday about the origins of the peoples of Ireland and Great Britain. It talked about new genetic evidence that shows that they are more or less the same people, with only small additions from new groups over the last 16,000 years. This means that all the Indo-European invaders over the years—the Celts, the Romans, the Anglo-Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans—were only only drops in the genetic bucket. They left a large linguistic mark, but they apparently didn't leave a huge genetic one. I have absolutely no problem believing this.

What I do have a problem believing, however, is all the linguistic hooey in the article. Just because the original inhabitants of the region were genetically related to the Basque doesn't mean they spoke a related language. But then it gets weirder after that. First there's the claim that Celtic is far older than previously believed (what does that even mean, anyway?), but then they claim that English constitutes a separate, fourth branch of the Germanic family. Huh?

This all is apparently based on a dating method called glottochronology—a method that linguists developed and then abandoned decades ago. But now geneticists think they can use the technique to date language change, and I really can't fathom why.

And of course, the article doesn't provide any of the data, so it's impossible to see how the researchers came to their conclusions. But I honestly have no doubt that their linguistic claims are easily falsified. So why do geneticists think they can use a discredited linguistic technique and suddenly become linguists? I doubt they'd appreciate it if linguists dabbled in genetics in the same fashion.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: pooka on March 08, 2007, 03:10:26 AM: Glottochronology sounds like something from Star Trek.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Japannie on March 08, 2007, 07:29:57 AM: Linguists dabbling in genetics? What a shocking concept!

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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/annekemajors/lego3.jpg)
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Farmgirl on March 08, 2007, 07:31:37 AM: Maybe I didn't read the article closely enough -- but where does it say they are mostly genetically Basque? Aren't the Basque from Spain and France (the Pyrenees area?)

FG
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 08, 2007, 11:20:16 AM: End of the third paragraph.
Quote
In Dr. Oppenheimer’s reconstruction of events, the principal ancestors of today’s British and Irish populations arrived from Spain about 16,000 years ago, speaking a language related to Basque.
I've seen other articles that said it a little more clearly: genetic studies have shown that the Celtic population of Ireland and Great Britain is closely related to the Basques. This implies that Europe was initially populated by one group of people. Subsequent waves (including all the Indo-Europeans) added a little to the gene pool and a lot to the language. Apparently the Basques were one group that escaped the oncoming waves of Indo-European languages.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Japannie on March 08, 2007, 11:22:55 AM: Nobody thinks I'm funny.

*boohoohoo*
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 08, 2007, 11:25:13 AM: Makin' babies is serious bidness.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Porter on March 08, 2007, 11:26:00 AM: *pity laugh*

:heh:
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Japannie on March 08, 2007, 11:26:07 AM: Only to a barbarous Saxon like yourself.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 08, 2007, 11:30:48 AM: But genetically speaking, I'm probably no more than 20 to 30 percent Saxon.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Porter on March 08, 2007, 12:04:00 PM: Quote
Only to a barbarous Saxon like yourself.
Like this?

(http://sakeriver.com/saxon.jpg)
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: rivka on March 08, 2007, 07:35:36 PM: Quote
Nobody thinks I'm funny.

*boohoohoo*
I chuckled.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Japannie on March 08, 2007, 08:51:21 PM: Well, Rivka thinks I'm funny.

*notes on resume*
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: rivka on March 08, 2007, 09:00:30 PM: Mildly amusing, at any rate.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Porter on March 08, 2007, 09:00:55 PM: Burn!
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: rivka on March 08, 2007, 09:02:13 PM: Aw, it wasn't meant to be mean.

Well, not very. ;)
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Porter on March 08, 2007, 09:14:09 PM: She's a sly one.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 08, 2007, 09:21:47 PM: Bless her heart.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Porter on March 08, 2007, 09:42:42 PM: This VD, Mary Cate gave me a cookie which was painted (she does watercolors with food coloring on cookies) to look like a human heart.

:wub:
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 08, 2007, 09:55:25 PM: I wouldn't recommend abbreviating Valentine's Day that way.

Though that story does make me like bev even more than I already did.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Porter on March 08, 2007, 10:10:19 PM: Valentine's Day? What are you talking about?
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: rivka on March 08, 2007, 10:10:36 PM: Quote
I wouldn't recommend abbreviating Valentine's Day that way.
*laugh* Agreed.

Although apparently you're not alone. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vd)
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 09, 2007, 11:11:41 AM: VD == venereal disease
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Porter on March 09, 2007, 11:13:45 AM: (I was trying to joke that I had been talking about venereal disease from the start, and didn't understand why they were bringing up Valentine's Day.)
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 09, 2007, 11:17:30 AM: <—slow
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 12, 2007, 08:34:30 AM: Well, apparently the genetics behind this hypothesis is probably no good either (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004296.html). Other geneticists have complained about this researchers shoddy techniques and his disregard for linguistic and archaeological evidence.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 12, 2007, 09:01:29 AM: On a mostly unrelated note, Jon Boy, have you ever seen that old PBS miniseries The Story of English?
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 12, 2007, 09:24:58 AM: Nope. Nor have I read the book. Maybe I'll put it on my to-read list.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Annie Subjunctive on March 12, 2007, 09:26:03 AM: I liked it, but it's probably all pretty basic stuff for you.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Narnia on March 13, 2007, 12:07:04 PM: Jon Boy, you're going to think I'm childish and primitive, but I've begun dabbling in the history of the British Isles and I adore it. Currently I'm reading (don't hit me) London by Edward Rutherford. I know it's not a great source of history, but I now know enough to understand everything you said in the first post of this thread. :blush:

What other stuff should I read if I find the topic interesting? (Irish, Scottish, English, Welsh, all of the above.) I'm going to netflix the HIstory of Britain documentary for a crash course, but I'd love to read more.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 13, 2007, 12:24:50 PM: What should you read? Um . . . I really don't know. I tend to pick up a lot of things here and there, so I can't really point to a source and say, "Here, read this book." I mean, I could recommend my textbook from my history of the English language course, but it's fairly technical. I'm sure there are other people who can make good recommendations, though.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Brinestone on March 13, 2007, 01:04:51 PM: The Mother Tongue: English and How It Got That Way by Bill Bryson (I think) is an easy, fun read that has some good information. It's not that technical, though, if that's what you're looking for.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 13, 2007, 01:59:02 PM: Ooh! I DID like that book.

And the Oxford Companion is fun to wander through.

Then again, I think reading the unabridged dictionary is fun. Through most of high school, my family didn't have one, and whenever my crowd got together at Wendy's house, I'd pull out her family's unabridged and plonk belly down on the floor and read. The rest of my friends would tease me about it, and ask if I was planning to read the phone book when I finished the dictionary.

When I was 17, I got my first unabridged all my own! And I can still sit and read it! It never gets old for me.

I'm geekier than you imagined, I s'pose.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Noemon on March 13, 2007, 09:50:15 PM: I'm guessing that it's a relatively small subset of the population here that doesn't read unabridged dictionaries for fun, Tante.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: rivka on March 13, 2007, 10:19:46 PM: Well, these days I almost never have the time. But yeah, I sure used to.

Made it through a fair bit of my parents' Britannica once upon a time, too.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Noemon on March 14, 2007, 06:00:41 AM: We just had an outdated set of World Book encyclopedias, but yeah, I pretty much devoured them in early gradeschool.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Noemon on March 14, 2007, 06:01:47 AM: The glue in the bindings made me sick to my stomach, though.
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Tante Shvester on March 14, 2007, 06:32:23 AM: Mmm...we used to eat paste in kindergarten. The teacher had to keep telling us not to eat it.

But then why did they have to make it so yummy and mint flavored?

By first grade, we moved onto the hard-core stuff -- huffing mimeographs.

Um, did they ever figure out what was behind those declining SAT scores?
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: rivka on March 14, 2007, 07:23:29 AM: No, they just changed the grading parameters instead. :P
Title: The origins of the Irish and the British
Post by: Jonathon on March 14, 2007, 08:17:18 AM: Quote
Um, did they ever figure out what was behind those declining SAT scores?
Something about kids these days having shorter attention spans, I think. I don't really remember.