GalacticCactus Forum
Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Tante Shvester on November 29, 2006, 06:21:53 AM
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I was talking to a friend from the other side of the country who had no idea that "appetizing" is a noun, the way that we use it in the New York area.
Here, it means that kind of deli food that is not cold cuts -- like salads, bagels and cream cheese, lox and smoked fish.
It is used thusly: "I'm going to pick up some appetizing for the brunch -- do you think I ought to get whitefish salad, herring, or both?"
My friend assures me that such a locution is entirely foreign to her.
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Yeah, that's weird.
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I've never heard of that either.
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Yeah, that strikes my ear as strange as well.
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Tante, did you just make that up to make us feel stupid and uncultured? ;)
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I've never seen or heard that usage.
"Appetizers" on the other hand, I see used a lot. It means the same as hours dourves but is easier to spell and pronounce.
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That usage I'm familiar with.
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yeah -- what dkw said.
I've never heard it as a noun.
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Alternatively, "something appetizing" would work as well.
Tri-State area people talk funny. :P
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I'm not making it up -- honest! Around here, all the supermarkets have "Appetizing Departments" (AKA "Appy"), where you go for your potato salad, cole slaw, whitefish, etc.
I always thought that was what it was called until my friend said that it was entirely strange.
Do you guys even have smoked whitefish in the middle of the country? 'Cause if you don't, maybe that's why you don't have the word to go with it.
"Something appetizing" is correct, but it doesn't have the specific meaning of "appetizing" (the noun). For all you know,"something appetizing" could be a bowl of chicken soup.
Which certainly is appetizing, but isn't Appetizing.
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Potato salad and cole slaw are known to me as "side dishes", and would be found in the "deli" section of the grocery store.
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They are side dishes or salads. By themselves, they might just be called that. But in conjunction with bagels and lox, whitefish and herring, they are elevated to "appetizing" status.
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Are you sure you're not making this up? :P
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Positive.
Ooh! Look! I have a distinctive regional English! :P
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I'm pretty sure this is a Yiddishism. And if it spreads (as "by her house" >.< has), I will be most displeased.
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I'm pretty sure this is a Yiddishism. And if it spreads (as "by her house" >.< has), I will be most displeased.
"By her house" is a Yiddishism? As in "I went by my brother's house for Thanksgiving."?
I just thought it was informal, spoken English. Are you sure that it is non-standard?
But "appetizing" the noun seems pretty standard around here. The supermarkets, mainstream places that they are, have appetizing departments. But they tend to shorten it to "appy". As in the overhead page: "John from Appy, you have a call on line 3."
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"I went by my brother's house for Thanksgiving."
Did you honk and wave as you went past?
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"By my brother's house" is synonymous with "to my brother's house," as used in that context.
So, we went inside and pulled up a chair.
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I just thought it was informal, spoken English. Are you sure that it is non-standard?
I've never heard it.
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I'm pretty sure this is a Yiddishism. And if it spreads (as "by her house" >.< has), I will be most displeased.
"By her house" is a Yiddishism? As in "I went by my brother's house for Thanksgiving."?
I just thought it was informal, spoken English. Are you sure that it is non-standard?
Oy, gevalt.
Yes, QUITE sure.
To be "by" someone's house (in English) means to be nearby. I always ask people "Weren't you cold, sitting outside?" but I will totally be stealing Jonathon's response for future use.
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"Weren't you cold, sitting outside?"
Wait. THAT'S not standard?
I majored in English, and it is the only language I know. It disturbs me to learn that my grasp of it is so weak. I have two kinds -- the formal, written kind, which I am pretty sure I have down pat, and the casual, spoken English that apparently is not standard. When I type on forums, I tend to be more casual and folksy, so the differences show more.
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Yes, that's standard.
*pat, pat*
*too late, remembers Tante doesn't like to be touched by strange men*
*apologizes, and barely remembers to not try to shake her hand in apology*
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"Weren't you cold, sitting outside?"
Wait. THAT'S not standard?
I'm not sure if you're joking . . . so I'll clarify. That line has usually been my response to "I slept by her house" and the like.
As for the rest, you're lived in the NY area too long. Flee while you still can! ;)
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I've heard things like "dropped by" or "stopped by," but "went by" sounds to me like you drove past. "Slept by" is right out.
I majored in English, and it is the only language I know. It disturbs me to learn that my grasp of it is so weak.
It's not that you have a weak grasp of it. It's that you, just like every person on the face of the earth, speak a dialect. There's nobody in the world whose speech is not remarkable in some way or another.
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The usage includes "was by" -- "I was by her house yesterday"; "ate by" -- "I eat by them every Shabbos"; "stay by" -- "Whenever I'm in New York, I stay by my cousins"; and various and sundry other atrocities.
The Yeshivish translation of "of the people, by the people, for the people" is "by the oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam."
More here. (http://www.importersparadise.com/mj_ht_arch/v38/mj_v38i32.html#CKS)
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My grandma said that my aunt wanted her to come by her for Christmas. I thought it was kind of odd.
Rivka, when you say tri-state area, which three states do you mean?
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NY, NJ . . . um, Esther, what's the third one? I think it's either PA or CT.
I guess it's CT. (http://www.tstc.org/)
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That's the tristate metropolitan area (NY, NJ, CT). PA works too, depending on where you live. Growing up I always thought it was NY, NJ, and PA because I live right near those borders and then someone told me it was really NY, NJ, and CT and my world was shattered. /melodramatic
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Honestly, I always used it as a way to refer to NY and NJ together. No one really cares which is the third one. ;)
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Haha, yea. We don't REALLY need PA or CT...
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All of the uses of "by" in this way in my dialect (or at least my idiolect--I think it's dialectical, though) are paired with verbs having to do with motion--"go by", "swing by", "run by"*...stuff like that. In all cases, the use of this construction means that a minimum of time was spent in whatever place the person is visiting. If I say "I swung by the store after work", for example, it means that I stopped, quickly got a few things, and left. If I ended up doing a through shopping trip I'd say that I "went to" or "stopped at" the store.
Prior to having read this thread, if someone had told me that they ate by someone I would have assumed that they meant that they ate while sitting next to them. It wouldn't have occurred to me that they meant anything else by it.
*"stop by" is the one exception to this that I can think of, and even there you could still argue that it had to do with motion, or at least the cessation of it.
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The usage includes "was by" -- "I was by her house yesterday"; "ate by" -- "I eat by them every Shabbos"; "stay by" -- "Whenever I'm in New York, I stay by my cousins"; and various and sundry other atrocities.
It's not an atrocity. It is me being remarkable!
There's nobody in the world whose speech is not remarkable in some way or another.
Oh, and Porter, the virtual kind of hugs/handshakes and (http://www.hatrack.com/ubb/main/graemlins/kiss.gif) are okie-doke with me. It is the actual physical contact that gets me skittish.
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And where I grew up (NY 'burbs) and where I live now (NJ), "tri-state area" always means NY, NJ, and CT, as they are all commuting distance to Manhattan, I guess. Pennsy is not.
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So I still don't get how "appetizing" would be a Yiddishism. All "appetizing" appears to be is an unexpected use of an otherwise valid participle. I don't see where it is inherently different from advertizer/advertising.
I gotta go fix my appetizements now.
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Because I think (and I need to check this with someone who speaks way more Yiddish than I do to be sure) that in Yiddish the word for "appetizer" is the same as the word for "appetizing."
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All of the uses of "by" in this way in my dialect (or at least my idiolect--I think it's dialectical, though) are paired with verbs having to do with motion--"go by", "swing by", "run by"*...stuff like that. In all cases, the use of this construction means that a minimum of time was spent in whatever place the person is visiting. If I say "I swung by the store after work", for example, it means that I stopped, quickly got a few things, and left. If I ended up doing a through shopping trip I'd say that I "went to" or "stopped at" the store.
I would call those uses standard English. Are they not?
Prior to having read this thread, if someone had told me that they ate by someone I would have assumed that they meant that they ate while sitting next to them. It wouldn't have occurred to me that they meant anything else by it.
Good!
Esther, it's not your atrocity, to be sure. But the misuse of "by" is an abomination that curdles the blood in my veins. A shanda fer da goyim!
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So I still don't get how "appetizing" would be a Yiddishism. All "appetizing" appears to be is an unexpected use of an otherwise valid participle.
It's actually a gerund (verb acting as a noun), not a participle (verb acting as a modifier).
Because I think (and I need to check this with someone who speaks way more Yiddish than I do to be sure) that in Yiddish the word for "appetizer" is the same as the word for "appetizing."
I can believe it, even though I don't speak Yiddish. I know that German uses gerunds in this way much more than English does. English is more inclined to use other kinds of nominalizing endings like -er.
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I miss hearing "fixin". "I was fixing to go to the store - do you want to come?" I liked that. :)
I have decided the distinctive thing about DC is that the entire town will wear black pants, black shoes, a white shirt, and red accessory ON THE SAME DAY. It's like everyone called each other the night before.
I don't mind - I like educated, dressed-up guys. I always enjoy the metro rides.
Other great locations are history conferences. The standard uniform for guys is khaki pants, a blue shirt, loafers, glasses, and stubble. Just adorable.
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All of the uses of "by" in this way in my dialect (or at least my idiolect--I think it's dialectical, though) are paired with verbs having to do with motion--"go by", "swing by", "run by"*...stuff like that. In all cases, the use of this construction means that a minimum of time was spent in whatever place the person is visiting. If I say "I swung by the store after work", for example, it means that I stopped, quickly got a few things, and left. If I ended up doing a through shopping trip I'd say that I "went to" or "stopped at" the store.
I would call those uses standard English. Are they not?
Well, I'd have assumed so prior to this thread, but once I started thinking about it I wasn't sure.
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I know that German uses gerunds in this way much more than English does.
Right, and so does Yiddish. I just don't happen to know if it is true of this specific case.
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I miss hearing "fixin". "I was fixing to go to the store - do you want to come?" I liked that. :)
My husband uses that. He also has more verb tenses than I do. He can say "You ought to should take the plants indoors -- they're predicting frost."
Born and raised in Atlanta, where I guess that sort of thing goes on.
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It's actually a gerund (verb acting as a noun), not a participle (verb acting as a modifier).
If it is a gerund, and not a, adjective phrase from which the modified noun was dropped. Like what rivka originally read it as.
I mean, is "appetize" really a verb? We can conceive of one, but was it one prior to that?
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If it is a gerund, and not a, adjective phrase from which the modified noun was dropped. Like what rivka originally read it as.
There must be something missing in that sentence, because I don't understand.
I mean, is "appetize" really a verb? We can conceive of one, but was it one prior to that?
The OED says that it's rare. Apparently the word appetizing was formed from a French borrowing, so the bare verb never actually existed in English (or exists only as an occasional backformation).
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Noemon wrote the post I would have written were I as thoughtful and articulate as he. Until I read his post I was trying to think of a way to say much the same thing, but it was going to be vaguer and less detailed. You may assume that I just copied and pasted his posts here.
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Noemon wrote the post I would have written were I as thoughtful and articulate as he. Until I read his post I was trying to think of a way to say much the same thing, but it was going to be vaguer and less detailed. You may assume that I just copied and pasted his posts here.
Sig!
:) Thanks Joe!
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Aw, no more coelacanth?
:cry:
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Poor coelacanth. Back to your mysterious cave under the Indian Ocean.
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I love that coelacanth quote--it's probably one of my all-time favorites uttered by anyone here. I've saved it to my on-site clipboard for future use.
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Excellent. :devil:
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I love that coelacanth quote--it's probably one of my all-time favorites uttered by anyone here. I've saved it to my on-site clipboard for future use.
What is its original source? I don't remember (if I ever knew) -- I just always thought it was cool.
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It was a bizarre dream of Pooka's.
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Ah! I think I remember now.
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Boy that thread was a blast from the past. It turns out I had a hyperlink for "coelacanth" and then the plural. Search found it under "deposition." Then I tried to find the LJ entry I reference in another dream, but I couldn't.
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I have often heard the types of foods you get in the deli referred to as "appetizing." I have always found it a weird use of the word "appetizing." I have never used it myself, but my MIL uses it all the time. And when I lived in the NY-NJ area, it wasn't used quite as commonly as Tante seems to be indicating. Some stores had appetizing departments, but others called those departments the delicatessan department.
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See! I'm not making it up! Ela has heard it, too.
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How do we know it's not a conspiracy of Jewish nurses?
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With two or three witnesses, how can I doubt you now?
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How do we know it's not a conspiracy of Jewish nurses?
Ela! We've been found out! Quick, meet me at the international banking and nursing conspiracy headquarters, and we'll regroup to infiltrate a new batch of forums!
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How do we know it's not a conspiracy of Jewish nurses?
Cause my MIL's not a nurse? ;)
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That you know of. :unsure:
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:fear:
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:lol:
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So, this came up elsewhere, and I suspect it is another of my endearing regionalisms. In New York, the game that is known as "hopscotch" everywhere is also called "potsy". The potsy is the thing that you throw to mark your place on the grid.
Do any of you folk call this playground game potsy? Have you even heard of potsy? Or did you just think that the "Happy Days" character's name was made up out of nothing?
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I've heard of it, but that's because my Dad is from the same place as that famous tree.
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I've never heard that term. The game is hopscotch and the marker is a hoppy taw (I think).
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A "hoppy taw"? You just made that up so that people will think you are as colorful and regional as I am.
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But I am colorful and regional! I say ornery like "ahnry"!
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That's not colorful. That's weird.
"Hoppy taw"???
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I don't remember making fun of your dialect. <_<
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Having memory problems, huh? *pat pat*
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Have I really made fun of your dialect? Because I think I'm going to try to stop. It irked me in the zee/zed thread the other day when some people expressed their pet peeves about regional vocabulary or pronunciation (I don't remember which it was). I should probably try not to be a hypocrite about it.
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Honestly, I'm not sure. I certainly have been teased (but in a friendly way, which I simply figure deserves return), but I can't swear any of it was by you.
I wasn't serious (well, maybe a little, in a :blink: sort of sense), but if it bugs you I'll behave. ;)
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At the end of the story, do you "land up", "end up", or "wind up"? I usually land up doing something, and sometimes I end up doing it, but Rivka claims that no one but me "lands up" doing anything, and that you are all "ending up" or "winding up".
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Rivka's experience is true for me. I've never heard "land up."
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I second that. I have never heard the term "land up" in that way.
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I saw you post it the other day, and it caught me off guard at first. I would normally use "end up" or "wind up." But then I thought about it a little more, and I think I have heard "land up," before, though I don't think it's common out here.
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I never heard of a hoppy taw until I moved to Utah (when I was 17). I think it might be a brand name. Before that, I never knew anyone played hopscotch with anything besides rocks, which we assumed were stand ins for actual bottled of scotch.
But I do believe "Taw" means something, like a lump of something. Hmm. I guess it probably comes from the "shooter marble" meaning. There is also a meaning that it's a way of preparing leather that makes it white, as opposed to Tanning.
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I've never heard of Hoppy Taw either, but it was probably invented after I was past childhood...
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Rivka claims that no one but me "lands up" doing anything, and that you are all "ending up" or "winding up".
:D Actually, I said that no one on Entropical Isle says it. I know plenty of people IRL who do -- but they're all Tri-Staters. Actually, only some of them say it. I guess it must be peculiar to certain sub-areas thereof?
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Peculiar? It's a perfectly normal Shvesterism!
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:whistling:
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None of my sisters ever land up.
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They should have that checked.
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There is also a meaning that it's a way of preparing leather that makes it white, as opposed to Tanning.
Actually, the distinction is between using vegetable sources (bark, leaves) or chemical sources (alum). Technically, tanning only refers to vegetable sources, but that distinction is rarely made anymore. From what I've seen, now if the distinction needs to be made, the leather is called "veg-tanned."
You're right, though, in that tanning solutions made from bark, etc, stain the skins and make them the characteristic brown color. So if you want to preserve a skin (such as a fur) without staining it, you would taw it.
--Mel
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I've never heard of land up. I tend to end up.
But then, you all spell words with a z instead of a s. I figure it's just mass regional colour. :)
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What's a "Tri-State"-er (from rivka's post above)? Which three states?
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I understand it's NY, NJ and CT.
Not PY, though some may argue the point.
( :) )
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(PA)
The first thing that came to my mind for PY was Pennsyltucky.
--Mel
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I seem to be having trouble finding Pennsyltucky on a map.
(http://www.ericdsnider.com/images/usmap.JPG)
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Clearly your map is out of date.
--Mel
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I've never heard of land up.
Not even from me? I land up using it in lots of my posts.
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I don't recall ever seeing you use it outside of this thread.
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A search on the "Stuff" side yields these examples. (http://www.galacticcactus.com/forum/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=cffd525ff95f128d59978867ca0b178d&search_in=posts&result_type=posts&highlite=land+up)
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So, this came up elsewhere, and I suspect it is another of my endearing regionalisms. In New York, the game that is known as "hopscotch" everywhere is also called "potsy". The potsy is the thing that you throw to mark your place on the grid.
Do any of you folk call this playground game potsy? Have you even heard of potsy? Or did you just think that the "Happy Days" character's name was made up out of nothing?
When I was a little girl in New York, hopscotch and potsy were two different games, with slightly different "gameboard" layouts.
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Huh. I just happened upon this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appetizing) wikipedia link.
Appetizing, when used as a noun, typically in reference to Jewish cuisine, is best understood as "the foods one eats with bagels."