GalacticCactus Forum
Forums => English & Linguistics => Topic started by: Tante Shvester on August 28, 2006, 02:03:07 PM
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I was reading a book on language today, and discovered that what I thought was just plain old colloquial, folksy English is actually a dialect known as Jewish English (http://www.jewish-languages.org/jewish-english.html).
I didn't even know I was speaking in dialect. No wonder I'm so incomprehensible to Porter. ;)
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Go figure.
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You want I should translate my posts for you?
(Would you like me to translate my posts for you?)
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I think I can navigate my way around odd syntax. The big problem I have is with the unshared lexicon.
But, apparently, I'm the only person that doesn't know those words. :sarcasm: <_<
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I didn't even know I was speaking in dialect.
At the very least you (presumably) speak some form of the American English dialect.
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Indeed. That's the dialect I thought I was speaking. I didn't realize that I was using some sub-dialect incomprehensible to folk from Utah.
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:pirate:
I am not from Utah.
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I'm confused. What did you say that was incomprehensible to Porter?
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Oh, I'm sure that it's not just Porter. He's just the one who points out to me that I seem to be using some foreign language.
And by "Utah", I guess I meant "the middle part of the country where people seem to find me incomprehensible."
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But "shvester" is a foreign language.
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And by "Utah", I guess I meant "the middle part of the country where people seem to find me incomprehensible."
So, to you, Texas and Utah are pretty much the same thing? o_O
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And so it continues.
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???
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The miscommunication (I'm guessing).
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In the early 21st century, speakers of Jewish English tend to be fluent in the local non-Jewish variety and shift styles according to audience, setting, and topic.
That is totally me. Y'all get the slightly Judaized version, because I'm comfortable with you, and know you'll ask if I use something you don't understand (and not hold it against me too much ;) ). At work I use a slightly "frummer" (more religious) version, and with most of my fellow frummies, it's as bad as some of the examples the article cited.
When I am with non-Jews I do not know well, I use virtually no Yiddish or Hebrew. Well, unless they're NYers. :mrgreen:
I think it is both awesome and hysterical that Frumspeak and a Journeys song are being cited in a scholarly article.
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What is frum?
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"frummer" (more religious)
;)
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That was a wholly unsatisfactory answer.
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Frum is a Yiddish word. It is approximately equivalent to "religious" or devout. In common usage, it is used to indicate that someone is an Orthodox Jew. While technically an adjective (e.g. Dost ist a frumme Yid -- That is a religious Jew), it is often used in Yinglish as a noun. Or rather, the diminiutive is. Mostly in a poking-fun-at-self manner.
More here (http://www.jewfaq.org/yiddish.htm), although he's wrong about it not also being used self-referentially, at least in some circles.
Correct usage of frum and variants thereof:
He went to Israel last year, and totally frummed out!
I'm looking for a doctor, preferably a frum one.
She is such a frummie! So holier-than-thou, she makes me sick.
How long have you been frum?
And of course, the age-old question, asked by match-makers everywhere: Are you a BT (ba'al(as) teshuva, one who became frum as an adult) or an FFB (frum from birth)? ;)
Better? :D
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Maybe frum and frumpy are related.
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The connection has been suggested, although I am fairly certain it is only a folk etymology. ;)
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Ah. Thank you. In many Mormon circles, we use the word Molly (as in Molly Mormon) and Peter Priesthood in many, but not quite all, the same ways.
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Except I don't know anyone who would say someone else was more "Molly Mormon" in a spirit of affection. But maybe it's different for women.
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The miscommunication (I'm guessing).
Yep. Said 83% in jest.
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So, to you, Texas and Utah are pretty much the same thing?
Well, they do have some things in common. Like, they aren't on the East Coast and I've never been to either. I suppose I am guilty of this kind of world view at times:
(http://www.adambaumgoldgallery.com/steinberg/posters/view_of_new_york.jpg)
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Admitting it is the first step.
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Not for an East-Coaster. For them, admitted it is also called "bragging." ;)
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Not for an East-Coaster. For them, admitted it is also called "bragging." ;)
Like "look at me, I'm so parochial"?
It's an attitude that I don't have much patience with, honestly. It strikes me as small-minded ignorance masquerading as cosmopolitan sophistication.
In case it looks like I'm being particularly harsh, I'll also add that I don't think that it's a viewpoint that Tante actually holds, given that she has shown herself to be a thoughtful person, and given that she in regular contact with the people maligned by that kind of thinking. I don't think that you could be the one and do the other and continue to think that way.
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Not for an East-Coaster. For them, admitted it is also called "bragging." ;)
That's like the stereotypical ignoran American being unashamed that he doesn't know the difference between China and Japan, or tha he can't find Europe on a map, damn furriners.
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No, it's like the stereotypical American being proud that they don't know the difference between China and Japan.
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I read that as "damned furries."
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There are all sorts of ways to be provincial, including the one illustrated on that cover.
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I don't know, if you are willing to eat soylent green you can forget about what goes on in the rest of the country. :devil:
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Here's how little I am aware of the Jewish culture: It took me about two seasons of Futurama to realize that Dr. Zoidberg was supposed to be Jewish.
Or maybe that's a testament to how oblivious I am. Once I thought of it, I realized that Dr. Zoidberg fits most of the Jewish cliches I can think of:
- His name has "stein", "berg", "gold", or "man" in it.
- He's got a stereotypical Jewish accent (For all I know it could be legit, but I've never heard a human, instead of a character, speak like that.)
- His sentence strucutre is reminiscent, in a way I lack the vocabulary to describe, of both Jewish characters I've seen and Tante's example earlier in this thread (You want I should go?)
- He's a doctor.
- He and his people are fond of employing guilt trips on each other.
- That's all I've got.
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It becomes even more apparent in a couple of episodes where there's a Decapodian other than Zoidberg (like the one with his uncle or the one where the Decapodians invade Earth). They even throw in some Yiddish vocabulary like "shlep."
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Not for an East-Coaster. For them, admitting it is also called "bragging." ;)
Like "look at me, I'm so parochial"?
Not exactly. Many NYers (and those in the Tri-State area in general) really do think their little corner of the world is the center of it. And in many cases, it is not because of a lack of exposure to the rest of the world (although there are certainly plenty of that variety as well). NY really does have some of the best museums, restaurants, theatres, and other cultural meccas in the world. And don't get me started on the shopping! ;)
IMO, it's a great place to visit. But I wouldn't want to LIVE there (and I tried it for a year).
[/li][li]He's got a stereotypical Jewish accent (For all I know it could be legit, but I've never heard a human, instead of a character, speak like that.)
[/li]- His sentence structure is reminiscent, in a way I lack the vocabulary to describe, of both Jewish characters I've seen and Tante's example earlier in this thread (You want I should go?)
His accent is exaggerated but not terribly so. The grammatical structures you noticed are Yiddish in origin (mostly, anyway). A few have actually crept into mainstream English. Just last week I noticed a blogger, who as far as I know has no connection to anything Jewish, use the phrase "I hold by [such-and-such authority]," which I do not believe is generally a common American English usage. But it's used in Yinglish all the time.
They even throw in some Yiddish vocabulary like "shlep."
You know that word (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=shlep), like "megillah (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/megillah)" and "chutzpah (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/chutzpah)" have become fairly mainstream, right? Even outside of NY? ;)
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Shlep and chutzpah I recognize, but not that middle one.
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Sure, but you live in UTAH! ;)
*flees*
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But I moved here from Oklahoma! ;)
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That's one of the flatter states of the flat states in the middle, right?
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They even throw in some Yiddish vocabulary like "shlep."
You know that word (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=shlep), like "megillah (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/megillah)" and "chutzpah (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/chutzpah)" have become fairly mainstream, right? Even outside of NY? ;)
No matter how mainstream they become, they will always be Yiddish in origin.
Also, it's worth noting that I've never heard anyone use any of those words in person unless they were talking about Yiddish English.
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They even throw in some Yiddish vocabulary like "shlep."
You know that word (http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=shlep), like "megillah (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/megillah)" and "chutzpah (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/chutzpah)" have become fairly mainstream, right? Even outside of NY? ;)
No matter how mainstream they become, they will always be Yiddish in origin.
Also, it's worth noting that I've never heard anyone use any of those words in person unless they were talking about Yiddish English.
I've heard all three used in non-Yiddish contexts, and I hear the first and the third all the time.
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Sure, but you live in UTAH!
But I moved here from Oklahoma!
So confuzzled. I thought it was Texas. Are you guys messing with the poor zhlub from Jersey?
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I lived for ten years in Texas, but I moved to Utah from Oklahoma.
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No matter how mainstream they become, they will always be Yiddish in origin.
Of course. But not too many people worry about the French origin of "beef," neh?
Also, it's worth noting that I've never heard anyone use any of those words in person unless they were talking about Yiddish English.
See previous response to Porter. ;)
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No matter how mainstream they become, they will always be Yiddish in origin.
Not really. Remember all our arguments about where such and such Latin word came from? What if it was borrowed into Latin but no one looks past the Latin? That could happen with English.
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No matter how mainstream they become, they will always be Yiddish in origin.
Of course. But not too many people worry about the French origin of "beef," neh?
I never said anyone was worried about anything. All I was saying is that words like shlep are still very associated with Jewish Americans and the Yiddish English dialect, even though they are becoming more widespread in American English.
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And I'm not disagreeing with you, really.
Well, maybe a little. ;)
Yes, they are, and probably always will be associated with Yiddish and Jews. But the association is weaker than it was, and it is perfectly normal and common for many non-Jews -- including some who know few or no Yiddish-speakers -- to use these words.
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It would seem that I'm not disagreeing with you, either. :) But, um . . . what was my original point? Oh, yeah—Dr. Zoidberg and the Decapodians are supposed to sound Jewish, so the writers give them some stereotypically Jewish dialogue. I never meant to imply that those words were exclusively Jewish, though.
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Jews in Hollywood. Who would have thought it?
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It really boggles the mind.
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Twice last week, I heard Jewish English called "Hebonics."
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:lol:
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Woah. I just noticed I got sigged by Rivka.
*high five*
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*high fives back*
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Rivka posted a Hebonics thread on Hatrack once upon a time.
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Did I really? I don't remember.
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Whenever the search engine asks me to disambiguate between rivka and rivka's dad, I imagine the server is praying "please let it be the one with 1 post and not the one with 19k".
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:lol:
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Hatrack Nite Krew REPREZENT (http://www.hatrack.com/cgi-bin/ubbmain/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=019638;p=0&r=nfx#000016)
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That's not a thread. It's a threat. ;)